Why did Sega go with Yakuza over Shenmue?

Yakuza is a lot cheaper to develop than a "proper" Shenmue game,and due to being in more sucessful systems helps as well,so they generally sold better than Shenmue 1 and 2. And even then,the Yakuza games aren´t exactly cheap to make.Nanomage

Pretty much what I was going to say. The original Shenmue had a budget of 47 million in unadjusted dollars. They scaled back on some of the crazier aspects of their development for the second one (like using a real architect to design the buildings) and they only spent around 23 million. The total budget for both games in modern dollars works out to closer to 90 million. Yakuza 1, which came out many years later, was produced on a budget of about 21 million.

-Byshop

[QUOTE="Nanomage"]Yakuza is a lot cheaper to develop than a "proper" Shenmue game,and due to being in more sucessful systems helps as well,so they generally sold better than Shenmue 1 and 2. And even then,the Yakuza games aren´t exactly cheap to make.Byshop

Pretty much what I was going to say. The original Shenmue had a budget of 47 million in unadjusted dollars. They scaled back on some of the crazier aspects of their development for the second one (like using a real architect to design the buildings) and they only spent around 23 million. The total budget for both games in modern dollars works out to closer to 90 million. Yakuza 1, which came out many years later, was produced on a budget of about 21 million.

-Byshop

the west on the other hand never producted teh kind of pure quality that shenmue did.

the reason indeed is money. yakuza was a lot cheaper to develop. shenmue cost 70 million dollars to do.

[QUOTE="Byshop"]

[QUOTE="Nanomage"]Yakuza is a lot cheaper to develop than a "proper" Shenmue game,and due to being in more sucessful systems helps as well,so they generally sold better than Shenmue 1 and 2. And even then,the Yakuza games aren´t exactly cheap to make.NationProtector

Pretty much what I was going to say. The original Shenmue had a budget of 47 million in unadjusted dollars. They scaled back on some of the crazier aspects of their development for the second one (like using a real architect to design the buildings) and they only spent around 23 million. The total budget for both games in modern dollars works out to closer to 90 million. Yakuza 1, which came out many years later, was produced on a budget of about 21 million.

-Byshop

To be fair, I think the reason Shenmue was so expensive was because they were pioneering/developing systems that most modern games have automated/easy-to-do in their engine. That and the platform switch meant a long development time. If a game like Shenmue was developed today using modern game engines it could be done for the fraction of the cost/time.Articuno76

That's definitely part of it, but they were also spending money on that game like it was going out of style. All the effort that went into re-creating an authentic recreation of 1980s Yokosuka from a design perspective is awesome and is one of the things that makes this game incredibly unique. They even recreated the actual weather from the actual dates the game takes place over. It's all these little touches that made this game amazing, but they add to production costs. Also, as cool as these things are, they aren't the sort of thing that you get any real return on investment from. Nobody is going to buy a game because it accurately reproduced the weather in Yokosuka on November 1st, 1986. One of the reasons a game like this would be cheaper today is also because developers now have a better understanding of what they should and shouldn't spend money on in order to make a financially successful game.

-Byshop

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Byshop"]

Pretty much what I was going to say. The original Shenmue had a budget of 47 million in unadjusted dollars. They scaled back on some of the crazier aspects of their development for the second one (like using a real architect to design the buildings) and they only spent around 23 million. The total budget for both games in modern dollars works out to closer to 90 million. Yakuza 1, which came out many years later, was produced on a budget of about 21 million.

-Byshop

 

Articuno76

These games are the only big Adventure like series Sega has, and that means they have no choice but to be put together. I don't understand why Sega decided to focus on Yakuza. Yakuza was not that much more successful in markets like NA. Where the 5th game is still in talks of localization.NationProtector

While Yakuza's sales in the Western world isn't any better than Shenmue (maybe even less than Shenmue), the reason why Sega keep making so many Yakuza games is because they are big hits in Japan.

You also have to keep in mind the currency exchange rates between the Japanese Yen and the US Dollar. Nowadays, the Japanese Yen has a high value compared to the US Dollar, which is bad news for Japanese companies because it means less profit from exports. Selling twice as many units overseas generates less profit than a game that sells half as much in the domestic Japanese market, hence why so many Japanese companies today focus more on the domestic market rather than the overseas markets.

Shenmue was more successful overseas than it was in Japan. If Shenmue III was released, it might become quite successful overseas, but it's unlikely to become a major hit in Japan, where there's more profit to be made. Despite many overseas Sega fans demanding Shenmue III, that most likely won't happen unless we have just as many Japanese fans also demanding Shenmue III.

[QUOTE="Articuno76"][QUOTE="NationProtector"] Insane how Japan spends so much money on things that are usually done cheaper over in the west. Including a lot less staff.NationProtector

No, actually, it's the same reason why a lot of Japanese games are expensive. They outsource most of their work to other companies. Look at Shemues or Final Fantasy Ten Credits and see random companies that have nothing to do with either SEGA or Square Enix do a ton of stuff.

MK was more advance than SF, yet SF took 4x the man power, because they outsourced the art and sprites and then compressed them.

Also I don't know about pioneering engines, the Shenmue Engine isn't reall used much, I think some of it is in Yakuza.

Western AAA games also outsource a lot of their work. Just look at the credits for any big-budget Western AAA game, and you'll see a huge list of credits with random companies and team members from around the world.

What do you mean by MK being more "advanced" than SF? They have very different art directions, with MK9 going for a more darker realistic look and SFIV going for a more artistic cel-shaded water-colour look. As for man power, the credits listed at MobyGames show MK9 having a slightly longer credit list than SFIV.

The Shenmue engine had the most realistic 3D graphics ever seen in its time, a huge leap forward compared to the 3D engines that had come before. To produce an engine like that in the late 90's would have been extremely expensive.

RYU GA GOTOKU / YAKUZA series is better than SHENMUE in every single aspect with the exception of SHNENMUE being set in the 80's, which is still pretty unique.

RYU GA GOTOKU 5 is simply fantastic. The 4th was already packed with insanse amount of content and activities, but they really went overboard with the latest entry. It's truly a superb game.

SHENMUE wasted away so many assets. Entire streets and locales in SHENMUE II for example were useless to the player as they held nothing the player could do with them. You couldn't even get unique conversations from the clerks of other people inside them, since they would only say the same stuff than any random passer-by on the street.

I think Yu Suzuki and his steam should have asked themselves what would the player gain by being able to entering all those places, than just figuring how realistic that would be.

They definitely wasted a lot of money designing nedless stuff, some of which was never used, even. In the end I think it was a huge mistake from their part to have jumped into this kind of gigantic project when they had very little experience in developing a game of this kind in the past.

Maybe if they had developed a less ambitious game before SHENMUE, that experience would've let them to create a more fulfilling game, just like how the RYU GA GOTOKU series are, really.

RYU GA GOTOKU / YAKUZA series is better than SHENMUE in every single aspect with the exception of SHNENMUE being set in the 80's, which is still pretty unique.

RYU GA GOTOKU 5 is simply fantastic. The 4th was already packed with insanse amount of content and activities, but they really went overboard with the latest entry. It's truly an superb game.

SHENMUE wasted away so many assets. Entire streets and locales in SHENMUE II for example were useless to the player as they held nothing the player could do with them. You couldn't even get unique conversations from the clerks of other people inside them, since they would only say the same stuff than any random passer-by on the street.

I think Yu Suzuki and his steam should have asked themselves what would the player gain by being able to entering all those places, than just how realistic would that be.

They definitely wasted a lot of money designing nedless stuff, some of which was never used, even. It think it was a huge mistake jumping from their part to have jumped on this kind of gigantic project when they had very little experience in developing a game of this kind in the past.

Maybe if they had developed a less ambitious game before SHENMUE, that experience would've let them to create a more fulfilling game, just like how the RYU GA GOTOKU series are, really.

Panzer_Zwei

Too bad they've skimped on the US release. :P

So far...

-Byshop

 

Too bad they've skimped on the US release. :P

So far...

-Byshop

Byshop

I don't know. The game came out in December of last year, and it has always take them more than year to translate the previous game.

This might take longer however due to immense amount of content.

I'm more troubled about possible licence issues, since there's some stuff like that TAIKO NO TATSUJIN arcade game and those mangas you can read, which aren't property of SEGA,

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Articuno76"] To be fair, I think the reason Shenmue was so expensive was because they were pioneering/developing systems that most modern games have automated/easy-to-do in their engine. That and the platform switch meant a long development time. If a game like Shenmue was developed today using modern game engines it could be done for the fraction of the cost/time.Jag85

No, actually, it's the same reason why a lot of Japanese games are expensive. They outsource most of their work to other companies. Look at Shemues or Final Fantasy Ten Credits and see random companies that have nothing to do with either SEGA or Square Enix do a ton of stuff.

MK was more advance than SF, yet SF took 4x the man power, because they outsourced the art and sprites and then compressed them.

Also I don't know about pioneering engines, the Shenmue Engine isn't reall used much, I think some of it is in Yakuza.

Western AAA games also outsource a lot of their work. Just look at the credits for any big-budget Western AAA game, and you'll see a huge list of credits with random companies and team members from around the world.

What do you mean by MK being more "advanced" than SF? They have very different art directions, with MK9 going for a more darker realistic look and SFIV going for a more artistic cel-shaded water-colour look. As for man power, the credits listed at MobyGames show MK9 having a slightly longer credit list than SFIV.

The Shenmue engine had the most realistic 3D graphics ever seen in its time, a huge leap forward compared to the 3D engines that had come before. To produce an engine like that in the late 90's would have been extremely expensive.

[QUOTE="Byshop"]

 

Too bad they've skimped on the US release. :P

So far...

-Byshop

Panzer_Zwei

I don't know. The game came out in December of last year, and it has always take them more than year to translate the previous game.

This might take longer however due to immense amount of content.

I'm more troubled about possible licence issues, since there's some stuff like that TAIKO NO TATSUJIN arcade game and those mangas you can read, which aren't property of SEGA,

I don't know. The game came out in December of last year, and it has always take them more than year to translate the previous game.

This might take longer however due to immense amount of content.

I'm more troubled about possible licence issues, since there's some stuff like that TAIKO NO TATSUJIN arcade game and those mangas you can read, which aren't property of SEGA,

Panzer_Zwei

Yeah, if history follows they usually announce the US release 6 to 12 months after the release of the Japanese version, then the English localization comes out 18-24 months after. I'll be pissed if this never comes stateside, as I've loved every English released Yakuza game to date (even Dead Souls).

-Byshop

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

No, actually, it's the same reason why a lot of Japanese games are expensive. They outsource most of their work to other companies. Look at Shemues or Final Fantasy Ten Credits and see random companies that have nothing to do with either SEGA or Square Enix do a ton of stuff.

MK was more advance than SF, yet SF took 4x the man power, because they outsourced the art and sprites and then compressed them.

Also I don't know about pioneering engines, the Shenmue Engine isn't reall used much, I think some of it is in Yakuza.

NationProtector

Western AAA games also outsource a lot of their work. Just look at the credits for any big-budget Western AAA game, and you'll see a huge list of credits with random companies and team members from around the world.

What do you mean by MK being more "advanced" than SF? They have very different art directions, with MK9 going for a more darker realistic look and SFIV going for a more artistic cel-shaded water-colour look. As for man power, the credits listed at MobyGames show MK9 having a slightly longer credit list than SFIV.

The Shenmue engine had the most realistic 3D graphics ever seen in its time, a huge leap forward compared to the 3D engines that had come before. To produce an engine like that in the late 90's would have been extremely expensive.

Which SF & MK games are you talking about? The old ones or the new ones? And by "technically impressive", are you referring to graphics or gameplay? If you mean graphics, than I agree the older MK games were more technically impressive than the SF games, since MK was running on 32-bit Midway T Unit arcade hardware, whereas SF was running on 16-bit Capcom CPS arcade arcade hardware. However, that tells us nothing about the state of Western & Japanese gaming as a whole at the time, since the most technically impressive games overall still came from Japan, especially Sega and Namco. Capcom were not known for making technically impressive games, but they always preferred more artististically impressive games, whereas Sega and Namco were the ones pushing the limits of video game hardware in the arcades.

Also, there are no budgets available for the MK & SF games, so where are you getting this idea that the SF games are more expensive than the MK games? As for teams, the credits at GameFAQs (for the arcade originals) and MobyGames (for the console ports) show MK1 having more staff members than SFII, so where are you getting this false idea about SFII having a larger team?

Again, Shenmue was technically impressive for its time. Of course it's going to look dated today, but back when it came out in 1999, where wasn't any game engine at the time that came anywhere near the 3D graphical quality of Shenmue back then. It was a huge milestone for 3D graphics in its own time, not today's time.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

Western AAA games also outsource a lot of their work. Just look at the credits for any big-budget Western AAA game, and you'll see a huge list of credits with random companies and team members from around the world.

What do you mean by MK being more "advanced" than SF? They have very different art directions, with MK9 going for a more darker realistic look and SFIV going for a more artistic cel-shaded water-colour look. As for man power, the credits listed at MobyGames show MK9 having a slightly longer credit list than SFIV.

The Shenmue engine had the most realistic 3D graphics ever seen in its time, a huge leap forward compared to the 3D engines that had come before. To produce an engine like that in the late 90's would have been extremely expensive.

Jag85

Which SF & MK games are you talking about? The old ones or the new ones? And by "technically impressive", are you referring to graphics or gameplay? If you mean graphics, than I agree the older MK games were more technically impressive than the SF games, since MK was running on 32-bit Midway T Unit arcade hardware, whereas SF was running on 16-bit Capcom CPS arcade arcade hardware. However, that tells us nothing about the state of Western & Japanese gaming as a whole at the time, since the most technically impressive games overall still came from Japan, especially Sega and Namco. Capcom were not known for making technically impressive games, but they always preferred more artististically impressive games, whereas Sega and Namco were the ones pushing the limits of video game hardware in the arcades.

Also, there are no budgets available for the MK & SF games, so where are you getting this idea that the SF games are more expensive than the MK games? As for teams, the credits at GameFAQs (for the arcade originals) and MobyGames (for the console ports) show MK1 having more staff members than SFII, so where are you getting this false idea about SFII having a larger team?

Again, Shenmue was technically impressive for its time. Of course it's going to look dated today, but back when it came out in 1999, where wasn't any game engine at the time that came anywhere near the 3D graphical quality of Shenmue back then. It was a huge milestone for 3D graphics in its own time, not today's time.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] MK was more technically impressive than SF, which is why I said that it was more advanced. Your MK9 and SFIV makes no sense because I am talking about overall and used an example that shows a large gap. SFII credit and outsourcing destroy MK's yet MK cost less money and is more technically advanced with how the game is made.

Western AAA games do outsource, but the vast majority goes to Japanese developers when it comes to outsourcing, STAFF, which is almost 100% in japanese favor, and how much they pay for outsourcing. it wasn't until now where you could even argue that Western devs wasted more money.

Shenmue engine is nice, but there are other great 3D engines that are just as good. Especially in other areas than textures.NationProtector

Which SF & MK games are you talking about? The old ones or the new ones? And by "technically impressive", are you referring to graphics or gameplay? If you mean graphics, than I agree the older MK games were more technically impressive than the SF games, since MK was running on 32-bit Midway T Unit arcade hardware, whereas SF was running on 16-bit Capcom CPS arcade arcade hardware. However, that tells us nothing about the state of Western & Japanese gaming as a whole at the time, since the most technically impressive games overall still came from Japan, especially Sega and Namco. Capcom were not known for making technically impressive games, but they always preferred more artististically impressive games, whereas Sega and Namco were the ones pushing the limits of video game hardware in the arcades.

Also, there are no budgets available for the MK & SF games, so where are you getting this idea that the SF games are more expensive than the MK games? As for teams, the credits at GameFAQs (for the arcade originals) and MobyGames (for the console ports) show MK1 having more staff members than SFII, so where are you getting this false idea about SFII having a larger team?

Again, Shenmue was technically impressive for its time. Of course it's going to look dated today, but back when it came out in 1999, where wasn't any game engine at the time that came anywhere near the 3D graphical quality of Shenmue back then. It was a huge milestone for 3D graphics in its own time, not today's time.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niYe7biRCvI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzgRbvw3S_8

MK has around 20 people working on the game (excluding Special thanks, which had nothing to do with it)
SFII had around 37 with a group they just lumped together without naming anyone in it, (excluding Capcom all staff, which is as relevant as special thanks.)

Now if we look at a game like Final Fantasy XIII today and Oblivion the credits are even more in the japanese favor and there is 5x the outsourcing.

Also, i understand you like Shenmue, that's fine, but it was not far off than everything else. Trying to act like I am looking back at it and saying "for its time" does not change the fact that it was not fhat impressive for its time. It had great texture work in some areas, and lacked in almost every other area in terms of technical graphics, including pop-in. You make it seem like I am saying it looked bad.

Okay, I'll take your word for it that SFII had a larger team than MK, but what is your point exactly? Capcom may have required more artists for the hand-drawn sprites, whereas MK didn't really need many artists for the mo-cap sprites. Also, SFII had a more polished and refined combat system than MK, so that may have also required more staff and programmers. But more importantly, innovation also requires more man-power, since SFII was an innovator that set a new template for fighting games, whereas MK was building on that SFII template. Graphics is not the only reason why you might need a larger team.

There's no relevance between the SF vs MK comparison and the FFXIII vs Skyrim comparison. These are two completely different eras. Japanese & Western studios in the early 90's were very different from the Japanese & Western studios of today. Besides, Square Enix spent a lot more funding and man-power on things like creating an entirely new game engine from scratch, expensive CGI cut-scenes, extensive voice acting, soundtracks, localizations, etc. Even then, Skyrim was apparently still more expensive to produce than FFXIII, so I don't see your point.

I understand you're not too fond of Shenmue, but facts are facts: There wasn't a single video game on any home systems at the time (whether on consoles or computers) that had technical 3D graphics anywhere near the quality of Shenmue. The only place where you might find graphics rivalling it at the time were Sega's own arcade games, but you certainly weren't going to find graphics like that on a home computer or console in 1999...

Shenmue (Dreamcast)

 Soul Calibur (Dreamcast)

Quake III Arena (PC)

Silent Hill (PlayStation)

Super Smash Bros (N64)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the 3D graphics of Shenmue was technically far ahead of every other console & computer game in 1999. So why should it be surprising that Shenmue was the most expensive video game up until that time?

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

Which SF & MK games are you talking about? The old ones or the new ones? And by "technically impressive", are you referring to graphics or gameplay? If you mean graphics, than I agree the older MK games were more technically impressive than the SF games, since MK was running on 32-bit Midway T Unit arcade hardware, whereas SF was running on 16-bit Capcom CPS arcade arcade hardware. However, that tells us nothing about the state of Western & Japanese gaming as a whole at the time, since the most technically impressive games overall still came from Japan, especially Sega and Namco. Capcom were not known for making technically impressive games, but they always preferred more artististically impressive games, whereas Sega and Namco were the ones pushing the limits of video game hardware in the arcades.

Also, there are no budgets available for the MK & SF games, so where are you getting this idea that the SF games are more expensive than the MK games? As for teams, the credits at GameFAQs (for the arcade originals) and MobyGames (for the console ports) show MK1 having more staff members than SFII, so where are you getting this false idea about SFII having a larger team?

Again, Shenmue was technically impressive for its time. Of course it's going to look dated today, but back when it came out in 1999, where wasn't any game engine at the time that came anywhere near the 3D graphical quality of Shenmue back then. It was a huge milestone for 3D graphics in its own time, not today's time.

Jag85

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niYe7biRCvI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzgRbvw3S_8

MK has around 20 people working on the game (excluding Special thanks, which had nothing to do with it)
SFII had around 37 with a group they just lumped together without naming anyone in it, (excluding Capcom all staff, which is as relevant as special thanks.)

Now if we look at a game like Final Fantasy XIII today and Oblivion the credits are even more in the japanese favor and there is 5x the outsourcing.

Also, i understand you like Shenmue, that's fine, but it was not far off than everything else. Trying to act like I am looking back at it and saying "for its time" does not change the fact that it was not fhat impressive for its time. It had great texture work in some areas, and lacked in almost every other area in terms of technical graphics, including pop-in. You make it seem like I am saying it looked bad.

Okay, I'll take your word for it that SFII had a larger team than MK, but what is your point exactly? Capcom may have required more artists for the hand-drawn sprites, whereas MK didn't really need many artists for the mo-cap sprites. Also, SFII had a more polished and refined combat system than MK, so that may have also required more staff and programmers. But more importantly, innovation also requires more man-power, since SFII was an innovator that set a new template for fighting games, whereas MK was building on that SFII template. Graphics is not the only reason why you might need a larger team.

There's no relevance between the SF vs MK comparison and the FFXIII vs Skyrim comparison. These are two completely different eras. Japanese & Western studios in the early 90's were very different from the Japanese & Western studios of today. Besides, Square Enix spent a lot more funding and man-power on things like creating an entirely new game engine from scratch, expensive CGI cut-scenes, extensive voice acting, soundtracks, localizations, etc. Even then, Skyrim was apparently still more expensive to produce than FFXIII, so I don't see your point.

I understand you're not too fond of Shenmue, but facts are facts: There wasn't a single video game on any home systems at the time (whether on consoles or computers) that had technical 3D graphics anywhere near the quality of Shenmue. The only place where you might find graphics rivalling it at the time were Sega's own arcade games, but you certainly weren't going to find graphics like that on a home computer or console in 1999...

Shenmue (Dreamcast)

 Soul Calibur (Dreamcast)

Quake III Arena (PC)

Silent Hill (PlayStation)

Super Smash Bros (N64)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the 3D graphics of Shenmue was technically far ahead of every other console & computer game in 1999. So why should it be surprising that Shenmue was the most expensive video game up until that time?

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niYe7biRCvI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzgRbvw3S_8

MK has around 20 people working on the game (excluding Special thanks, which had nothing to do with it)
SFII had around 37 with a group they just lumped together without naming anyone in it, (excluding Capcom all staff, which is as relevant as special thanks.)

Now if we look at a game like Final Fantasy XIII today and Oblivion the credits are even more in the japanese favor and there is 5x the outsourcing.

Also, i understand you like Shenmue, that's fine, but it was not far off than everything else. Trying to act like I am looking back at it and saying "for its time" does not change the fact that it was not fhat impressive for its time. It had great texture work in some areas, and lacked in almost every other area in terms of technical graphics, including pop-in. You make it seem like I am saying it looked bad.

NationProtector

Okay, I'll take your word for it that SFII had a larger team than MK, but what is your point exactly? Capcom may have required more artists for the hand-drawn sprites, whereas MK didn't really need many artists for the mo-cap sprites. Also, SFII had a more polished and refined combat system than MK, so that may have also required more staff and programmers. But more importantly, innovation also requires more man-power, since SFII was an innovator that set a new template for fighting games, whereas MK was building on that SFII template. Graphics is not the only reason why you might need a larger team.

There's no relevance between the SF vs MK comparison and the FFXIII vs Skyrim comparison. These are two completely different eras. Japanese & Western studios in the early 90's were very different from the Japanese & Western studios of today. Besides, Square Enix spent a lot more funding and man-power on things like creating an entirely new game engine from scratch, expensive CGI cut-scenes, extensive voice acting, soundtracks, localizations, etc. Even then, Skyrim was apparently still more expensive to produce than FFXIII, so I don't see your point.

I understand you're not too fond of Shenmue, but facts are facts: There wasn't a single video game on any home systems at the time (whether on consoles or computers) that had technical 3D graphics anywhere near the quality of Shenmue. The only place where you might find graphics rivalling it at the time were Sega's own arcade games, but you certainly weren't going to find graphics like that on a home computer or console in 1999...

Shenmue (Dreamcast)

 Soul Calibur (Dreamcast)

Quake III Arena (PC)

Silent Hill (PlayStation)

Super Smash Bros (N64)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the 3D graphics of Shenmue was technically far ahead of every other console & computer game in 1999. So why should it be surprising that Shenmue was the most expensive video game up until that time?

MK was not even originally going to be a fighting game, and to say the FIRST MK build off the SF template makes no sense to me at all, so the subject is something we should look at later, but I want to focus more on the primary thing we are discussing.

You continue to place me in a negative side of Shenmue with no basis other than to rile me up which won't work. I like Shenmue, and I am not looking back on it, I am talking about "It's time." Let's discuss Shenmues graphics.

You seem to be ignoring what I had said before. I don't care what you think of your textured graphics. You keep bringing that up. The thing you are missing is that Shenmue, despite its texture models being impressive, falls short to other 3D games in almost every other subject. Pop-in, draw distance, A.i. on screen, background textures, requiring closed space during fights to maintain texture quality and frame rate quality. (If you have a scratched disc, you can sometimes break out of those invisible barriers and see how horrible the textures are when they are not a certain radius from Ryo.)

But one more thing though, you really are going to put N64 and PSX games on your list comparing to Shenmue? Why would you even need to do that? It shows me you have little knowledge of games during 1999 in terms of graphics. But you are mostly a console gamer I assume so I don't blame you for that, here are some random games I found just typign in 1999 pc games on a random search engine and I have 3 of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-uEye80v4UU

Let me describe the games above to you with what they have:
More detailed polygons in almost every place (outside of character models) detailed textures. More fluid animation that is not stiff. Much higher draw distance with less pop-in. Additional benefits on top of that include more complex A.I. on one screen, Better control of camera, realistic natural effect, including water, lighting, and shadows among many others. Did I mention still having superior textures in view able object farther in the distance? Oh, and I may have said this already, but the more fluid motion in the animation of movement and much broader horizons with more detail.

BTW,

You can have your blurry washed out textures, lack of quality foliage, lowered color support, stiff animated, Tank controlled, low draw distances, massive pop-in looking, Solid objects having transparent shadows, NPC having worse texture quality other than faces looking, game and have fun with it in the bathroom. i have nothing against Shenmue, it's a great game, but it does not have the graphics of the century in 1999. This is the "fact" and just because I don't agree that it doesn't look like Jesus in Hd, does not mean I hate the game.

That's funny... TigerSuperman was making almost the same exact arguments about Shenmue as you in another thread... Well done for once again revealing your true identity, Another48Hours. I wonder how many more sock-puppet accounts you have here, mate?

Anyway...

The creators of Mortal Kombat themselves acknowledged that it was direct inspired by Street Fighter II... But of course, like your alter-ego TigerSuperman, I bet you're just going to claim the creators are lying, right?

As for Shenmue, what was that you said about draw distance?

As for the screenshots you just posted... Grim Fandango used pre-rendered backdrops, not real-time 3D backdrops. In the Flight Unlimited III screenshots you posted, the backdrop is clearly just a flat bitmap surface, not real-time 3D polygons. Sports Car GT has nice water effects, kind of like Wave Race 64, but otherwise it doesn't really compare to Shenmue in any other way. Armored Fist 3 has large environments, but the textures are bland and it doesn't have anywhere near as many objects on screen as Shenmue. As for SWAT 3, it's a technically impressive game for its time, but once again it's lacking compared to Shenmue in most ways, whether it's the number of objects on screen, the amount of textures on screen, the draw distance, the shadows, etc. Also, none of the games you posted really have impressive foliage, so I have no idea what you're trying to get at there. And speaking of shadows, none of the games you posted even have anything approaching the shadow effects that Shenmue has.

So far, nothing you've said or posted disproves the widely accepted fact that Shenmue had the most technically impressive graphics of 1999. The amount of excessive details in that game was beyond anything else seen up until 1999. Therefore, it shouldn't be surprising at all that Shenmue was the most expensive video game up until then.

Yes, you dislike Shenmue, I get the picture. In fact, it's pretty obvious from your posts (and your alt accounts) that you have a dislike for Japanese developers in general. Whether it's Nintendo, Sega, or Capcom, what do you have against Japanese developers? 

Yes, you dislike Shenmue, I get the picture. In fact, it's pretty obvious from your posts (and your alt accounts) that you have a dislike for Japanese developers in general. Whether it's Nintendo, Sega, or Capcom, what do you have against Japanese developers? Jag85

What are you talking about? IF you provide a link that MK was made form the SFII template then by all means do. I will believe you 100%, See, unlike your friend that you accuse me of being of, I am not going to go on a 5 page argument with you, because I can clearly see you make sh&t up.

The reason why I keep saying your wrong is simple. Because you have yet to post a Shenmue Screenshot to prove your points, yet I have.



This is the screen you posted. This is a SHENMUE II SCREENSHOT for the SECOND TIME.

If you have to post Shenmue II (which is not a 1999 games btw.) to prove your points than all it does is make Shenmue look worse. I posted Shenmue one screenshots, you never have, so until you do It's hard to have an argument with you because you presented no information, just false identity. I'm not falling for your 5 page argument tricks.

NationProtector

Here you go:

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.html

What you have to remember is that the original game was our response to a number of things, begins co-creator Ed Boon. Obviously Street Fighter II was huge in 1991 and Midway had not entered into the fighting arena yet. We also had this new digitised images technology, which (at the time) was state of the art and we wanted to do a game that would lend itself to big images. Finally we were all fans of those cool (and sometimes cheesy) martial arts movies like Enter The Dragon, Bloodsport and Big Trouble In Little China.

As a result of all these different reasons, work on Mortal Kombat surged ahead and Boon, co-creator John Tobias and the rest of the four-man team were soon on their way to creating a rival to Capcoms incredibly successful sequel. While the small team was confident of their new title, they knew full well the might of what they were up against and were not arrogant enough to assume they had a Street Fighter II beater on their hands.

I dont think we were ever dreaming THAT big at the time, laughs Boon. That would have been like trying to come up with a Windows Beater operating system.

With Midway wanting to counter the success of Capcoms seemingly unstoppable beat-em-up behemoth as quickly as possible, Boon soon encountered his first major problem.

Time or lack thereof. Mortal Kombat was put together in an incredibly fast time, he confirms. Id say that from start to finish it took us roughly eight months and the biggest problem we encountered was trying to do the game in such a small time frame. Thankfully, once we got the basic fighting down and everyone was so excited about that aspect of the game, the rest of the gameplay just sort of fell into place.

Wanting to stay away from the six-button set-up that had served Street Fighter II so well, Midway instead devised a four-button system for alternating light and heavy punches and kicks, while a fifth button was controversially used to block (many fighting games of the time, including Street Fighter II, simply required you to pull back on the joystick).

We always found it odd that you would get a free block if someone was attacking you while you were walking backwards, explains Boon about their unusual decision. We felt blocking should be a much more deliberate action that the player should initiate, as opposed to sometimes being done automatically.

In other words, Ed Boon makes it clear that Mortal Kombat was a direct response to Street Fighter II.

As for that screenshot, it's not from Shenmue II, but from the first Shenmue...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNDChSl42Xw

If you don't want to debate with me any further though, then fair enough. I'm more than willing to just agree to disagree.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

What are you talking about? IF you provide a link that MK was made form the SFII template then by all means do. I will believe you 100%, See, unlike your friend that you accuse me of being of, I am not going to go on a 5 page argument with you, because I can clearly see you make sh&t up.

The reason why I keep saying your wrong is simple. Because you have yet to post a Shenmue Screenshot to prove your points, yet I have.



This is the screen you posted. This is a SHENMUE II SCREENSHOT for the SECOND TIME.

If you have to post Shenmue II (which is not a 1999 games btw.) to prove your points than all it does is make Shenmue look worse. I posted Shenmue one screenshots, you never have, so until you do It's hard to have an argument with you because you presented no information, just false identity. I'm not falling for your 5 page argument tricks.

Jag85

Here you go:

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.html

What you have to remember is that the original game was our response to a number of things, begins co-creator Ed Boon. Obviously Street Fighter II was huge in 1991 and Midway had not entered into the fighting arena yet. We also had this new digitised images technology, which (at the time) was state of the art and we wanted to do a game that would lend itself to big images. Finally we were all fans of those cool (and sometimes cheesy) martial arts movies like Enter The Dragon, Bloodsport and Big Trouble In Little China.

As a result of all these different reasons, work on Mortal Kombat surged ahead and Boon, co-creator John Tobias and the rest of the four-man team were soon on their way to creating a rival to Capcoms incredibly successful sequel. While the small team was confident of their new title, they knew full well the might of what they were up against and were not arrogant enough to assume they had a Street Fighter II beater on their hands.

I dont think we were ever dreaming THAT big at the time, laughs Boon. That would have been like trying to come up with a Windows Beater operating system.

In other words, Ed Boon makes it clear that Mortal Kombat was a direct response to Street Fighter II.

As for that screenshot, it's not from Shenmue II, but from the first Shenmue...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNDChSl42Xw

If you don't want to debate with me any further though, then fair enough. I'm more than willing to just agree to disagree.

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.html

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]These games are the only big Adventure like series Sega has, and that means they have no choice but to be put together. I don't understand why Sega decided to focus on Yakuza. Yakuza was not that much more successful in markets like NA. Where the 5th game is still in talks of localization.Jag85

While Yakuza's sales in the Western world isn't any better than Shenmue (maybe even less than Shenmue), the reason why Sega keep making so many Yakuza games is because they are big hits in Japan.

You also have to keep in mind the currency exchange rates between the Japanese Yen and the US Dollar. Nowadays, the Japanese Yen has a high value compared to the US Dollar, which is bad news for Japanese companies because it means less profit from exports. Selling twice as many units overseas generates less profit than a game that sells half as much in the domestic Japanese market, hence why so many Japanese companies today focus more on the domestic market rather than the overseas markets.

Shenmue was more successful overseas than it was in Japan. If Shenmue III was released, it might become quite successful overseas, but it's unlikely to become a major hit in Japan, where there's more profit to be made. Despite many overseas Sega fans demanding Shenmue III, that most likely won't happen unless we have just as many Japanese fans also demanding Shenmue III.

yakuza also isn't selling better in japan than shenmue was, and definitely not outside of japan. not a single yakuza game for instance has outsold shenmue 1, and that is a testament to shenmue 1 sales 13 years ago on a platform that had only 6 million users at the time

GTA character models are nowhere close to Yakuza 2 character models.Dudersaper

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.htmlNationProtector

Well since your link has an later date, I will assume it is more up to date. Fair enough on this, but back to Shenmue. (edit again#3, this says nothing about MKI having their engine based on street fighters II template, heck, the MK engine for the first game is horrible. MK would not have went anywhere without 2. But if you meant Template as in response (which makes no sense) then yes you are right, but that's not what I was talking about. But that doesn't matter, SF and MK are the top fighters in the world imo with Virtua Fighter 3, which I need to rebuy, so hell if I care, back to shenmue. )

(Also surprised Shenmue Fan did not come in and tell you that was not Shenmue II.)

Edit #6( The other pic you had with the ledge is pressed and emulated, even thouh it's nothing but bland texture and one character model, so it's either Null DC, or a Bull shot..)

Edit #7( and once we get some shenmue shots, we should compare to PS2 Yakuza graphics and see what changed.)

I didn't say MK borrowed the SFII engine, but that it was designed around the template set by SFII. Anyway, it seems we already agree on this, so let's leave it at that.

I didn't realize the pic was from Shenmue II, since it looks very similar to the first game, not that it matters much anyway.

How can those Shenmue screenshots be "emulated" if they clearly have SDTV resolutions, even with the interlacing? It looks nothing like the crisp hi-res shots you'd get from Null DC...

And finally, it looks like some have already compared Shenmue to Yakuza above... As far as the PS2 Yakuza's go, the graphical quality seems like a step down from Shenmue rather than a step up.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]These games are the only big Adventure like series Sega has, and that means they have no choice but to be put together. I don't understand why Sega decided to focus on Yakuza. Yakuza was not that much more successful in markets like NA. Where the 5th game is still in talks of localization.bultje112

While Yakuza's sales in the Western world isn't any better than Shenmue (maybe even less than Shenmue), the reason why Sega keep making so many Yakuza games is because they are big hits in Japan.

You also have to keep in mind the currency exchange rates between the Japanese Yen and the US Dollar. Nowadays, the Japanese Yen has a high value compared to the US Dollar, which is bad news for Japanese companies because it means less profit from exports. Selling twice as many units overseas generates less profit than a game that sells half as much in the domestic Japanese market, hence why so many Japanese companies today focus more on the domestic market rather than the overseas markets.

Shenmue was more successful overseas than it was in Japan. If Shenmue III was released, it might become quite successful overseas, but it's unlikely to become a major hit in Japan, where there's more profit to be made. Despite many overseas Sega fans demanding Shenmue III, that most likely won't happen unless we have just as many Japanese fans also demanding Shenmue III.

yakuza also isn't selling better in japan than shenmue was, and definitely not outside of japan. not a single yakuza game for instance has outsold shenmue 1, and that is a testament to shenmue 1 sales 13 years ago on a platform that had only 6 million users at the time

http://www.the-magicbox.com/charts.htm

• The original Shenmue sold no more than 300,000 units in Japan. In comparison, it sold more than 460,000 units in the United States.
• Shenmue II only sold about 125,000 units in Japan.

http://garaph.info/softwaregroup.php?grid=47

• The original Yakuza sold about 830,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 2 sold about 920,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 3 sold about 600,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 4 & 5 both sold about 580,000 units each in Japan.
• And even Yakuza: Of the End sold more than 410,000 units in Japan.

It's clear that Yakuza is a far more profitable franchise for Sega than Shenmue ever was, unfortunately.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.htmlJag85

Well since your link has an later date, I will assume it is more up to date. Fair enough on this, but back to Shenmue. (edit again#3, this says nothing about MKI having their engine based on street fighters II template, heck, the MK engine for the first game is horrible. MK would not have went anywhere without 2. But if you meant Template as in response (which makes no sense) then yes you are right, but that's not what I was talking about. But that doesn't matter, SF and MK are the top fighters in the world imo with Virtua Fighter 3, which I need to rebuy, so hell if I care, back to shenmue. )

(Also surprised Shenmue Fan did not come in and tell you that was not Shenmue II.)

Edit #6( The other pic you had with the ledge is pressed and emulated, even thouh it's nothing but bland texture and one character model, so it's either Null DC, or a Bull shot..)

Edit #7( and once we get some shenmue shots, we should compare to PS2 Yakuza graphics and see what changed.)

I didn't say MK borrowed the SFII engine, but that it was designed around the template set by SFII. Anyway, it seems we already agree on this, so let's leave it at that.

I didn't realize the pic was from Shenmue II, since it looks very similar to the first game, not that it matters much anyway.

How can those Shenmue screenshots be "emulated" if they clearly have SDTV resolutions, even with the interlacing? It looks nothing like the crisp hi-res shots you'd get from Null DC...

And finally, it looks like some have already compared Shenmue to Yakuza above... As far as the PS2 Yakuza's go, the graphical quality seems like a step down from Shenmue rather than a step up.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.htmlNationProtector

Well since your link has an later date, I will assume it is more up to date. Fair enough on this, but back to Shenmue. (edit again#3, this says nothing about MKI having their engine based on street fighters II template, heck, the MK engine for the first game is horrible. MK would not have went anywhere without 2. But if you meant Template as in response (which makes no sense) then yes you are right, but that's not what I was talking about. But that doesn't matter, SF and MK are the top fighters in the world imo with Virtua Fighter 3, which I need to rebuy, so hell if I care, back to shenmue. )

(Also surprised Shenmue Fan did not come in and tell you that was not Shenmue II.)

Edit #6( The other pic you had with the ledge is pressed and emulated, even thouh it's nothing but bland texture and one character model, so it's either Null DC, or a Bull shot..)

Edit #7( and once we get some shenmue shots, we should compare to PS2 Yakuza graphics and see what changed.)

I didn't say MK borrowed the SFII engine, but that it was designed around the template set by SFII. Anyway, it seems we already agree on this, so let's leave it at that.

I didn't realize the pic was from Shenmue II, since it looks very similar to the first game, not that it matters much anyway.

How can those Shenmue screenshots be "emulated" if they clearly have SDTV resolutions, even with the interlacing? It looks nothing like the crisp hi-res shots you'd get from Null DC...

And finally, it looks like some have already compared Shenmue to Yakuza above... As far as the PS2 Yakuza's go, the graphical quality seems like a step down from Shenmue rather than a step up.

1. Matters quite a bit when you are using it to prove a point in an argument.

2. SDTV resolution has nothing to do with it, it's still Emulated. This is your pic:

This is captured from the screen from a good TV with a High Quality Capture Card:

Your pic has tons of touches done, like smoothing out almost everything, even going as far a remove the tree pixels on the bottom land areas and smoothing it out entirely, to having no jags anywhere. the trees behind her are also slightly less paper looking, which does not start happening until the Xbox, because other wise trees look like crap most of the time unless they are pre-rendered.

The Rock is smoothed out of all jaggys, even her model itself is, which makes no sense because every time you see her in the game she has jags. Your pic also removed the muddy look that is blanketed over the entire shot, and instead, there is not any static or anything that looks like pixels anywhere in your pic.

1. A point I already proved using other screenshots.

2. The pic you posted looks even more detailed than the one I posted... If anything, you're only hurting your argument more than anything. And for the record, SDTV had everything to do with it. The first pic clearly looks more like 480i, while the second pic looks more like 480p, hence why the first pic looks more blurry and the second pic looks more crisp. And by the way, here's what that same scene really looks like with NullDC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4d19laKzOE

...But as you can see, NullDC is having a few issues emulating the trees. Anyway, the pic you posted looks more closer to NullDC than the blurry one I posted, if anything.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

I didn't say MK borrowed the SFII engine, but that it was designed around the template set by SFII. Anyway, it seems we already agree on this, so let's leave it at that.

I didn't realize the pic was from Shenmue II, since it looks very similar to the first game, not that it matters much anyway.

How can those Shenmue screenshots be "emulated" if they clearly have SDTV resolutions, even with the interlacing? It looks nothing like the crisp hi-res shots you'd get from Null DC...

And finally, it looks like some have already compared Shenmue to Yakuza above... As far as the PS2 Yakuza's go, the graphical quality seems like a step down from Shenmue rather than a step up.

Jag85

1. Matters quite a bit when you are using it to prove a point in an argument.

2. SDTV resolution has nothing to do with it, it's still Emulated. This is your pic:

This is captured from the screen from a good TV with a High Quality Capture Card:

Your pic has tons of touches done, like smoothing out almost everything, even going as far a remove the tree pixels on the bottom land areas and smoothing it out entirely, to having no jags anywhere. the trees behind her are also slightly less paper looking, which does not start happening until the Xbox, because other wise trees look like crap most of the time unless they are pre-rendered.

The Rock is smoothed out of all jaggys, even her model itself is, which makes no sense because every time you see her in the game she has jags. Your pic also removed the muddy look that is blanketed over the entire shot, and instead, there is not any static or anything that looks like pixels anywhere in your pic.

1. A point I already proved using other screenshots.

2. The pic you posted looks even more detailed than the one I posted... If anything, you're only hurting your argument more than anything. And for the record, SDTV had everything to do with it. The first pic clearly looks more like 480i, while the second pic looks more like 480p, hence why the first pic looks more blurry and the second pic looks more crisp. And by the way, here's what that same scene really looks like with NullDC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4d19laKzOE

...But as you can see, NullDC is having a few issues emulating the trees. Anyway, the pic you posted looks more closer to NullDC than the blurry one I posted, if anything.

^ Now you're starting to remind me more and more of TigerSuperman and Another48Hours, throwing around strawman arguments and desperately trying to derail the topic...

Clearly the person who took that first screenshot most likely took it from a blury old interlaced SDTV with very little contrast, but for some reason you think it was emulated? Even though I just showed you that an emulated screenshot looks nothing like that? Honestly, what are you even trying to prove by banging on about this one point over and over again? Have you even forgotten about the reason I even posted that picture? You know, that thing about the draw distance, which you've failed to disprove?

The point is that Shenmue was widely regarded as the most technically impressive video game of 1999, and that is the reason why it was the most expensive game up until then. So far, nothing you've posted has disproved this.

EDIT:

By the way, if you still think that first screenshot is emulated/photoshopped, here's some footage from the original game to prove it isn't:

http://youtu.be/BNDChSl42Xw?t=1m8s

Happy now? Are are you just going to claim that YouTube video is emulated/photoshopped? Geez, if you're trying to hide your connection to TigerSuperman, you're doing a pretty bad job of it, because you're behaving just like he does...

^ Now you're starting to remind me more and more of TigerSuperman and Another48Hours, throwing around strawman arguments and desperately trying to derail the topic...

Clearly the person who took that first screenshot most likely took it from a blury old interlaced SDTV with very little contrast, but for some reason you think it was emulated? Even though I just showed you that an emulated screenshot looks nothing like that? Honestly, what are you even trying to prove by banging on about this one point over and over again? Have you even forgotten about the reason I even posted that picture? You know, that thing about the draw distance, which you've failed to disprove?

The point is that Shenmue was widely regarded as the most technically impressive video game of 1999, and that is the reason why it was the most expensive game up until then. So far, nothing you've posted has disproved this.

EDIT:

By the way, if you still think that first screenshot is emulated/photoshopped, here's some footage from the original game to prove it isn't:

http://youtu.be/BNDChSl42Xw?t=1m8s

Happy now? Are are you just going to claim that YouTube video is emulated/photoshopped? Geez, if you're trying to hide your connection to TigerSuperman, you're doing a pretty bad job of it, because you're behaving just like he does...

Jag85

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

^ Now you're starting to remind me more and more of TigerSuperman and Another48Hours, throwing around strawman arguments and desperately trying to derail the topic...

Clearly the person who took that first screenshot most likely took it from a blury old interlaced SDTV with very little contrast, but for some reason you think it was emulated? Even though I just showed you that an emulated screenshot looks nothing like that? Honestly, what are you even trying to prove by banging on about this one point over and over again? Have you even forgotten about the reason I even posted that picture? You know, that thing about the draw distance, which you've failed to disprove?

The point is that Shenmue was widely regarded as the most technically impressive video game of 1999, and that is the reason why it was the most expensive game up until then. So far, nothing you've posted has disproved this.

EDIT:

By the way, if you still think that first screenshot is emulated/photoshopped, here's some footage from the original game to prove it isn't:

http://youtu.be/BNDChSl42Xw?t=1m8s

Happy now? Are are you just going to claim that YouTube video is emulated/photoshopped? Geez, if you're trying to hide your connection to TigerSuperman, you're doing a pretty bad job of it, because you're behaving just like he does...

NationProtector

You must be blind...

Here's a screenshot from the video I just posted:

Here's the screenshot I originally posted before that:

Now tell me what the difference is other than the screenshot fron the video being darker and lower (240p) resolution?

Seriously, your delusions about the screenshot being emulated/photoshopped/doctored is just getting plain ridiculous now...

And are you kidding me with that video? So the only way you can prove that Shenmue is suffering from pop-ins is by posting a bug testing video with a bug cheat enabled that lets you fly through walls? Honestly, I don't even know why I even bother taking you seriously sometimes...

And yeah, after all those posts of rambling, you've still proven nothing. Even your entire argument rests on very shaky grounds... If the game's graphics was not so impressive for its time like you claim (which you have still failed to prove), then where did most of that $70 million go? Your arguments just don't make any sense, mate.

[QUOTE="NationProtector"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

^ Now you're starting to remind me more and more of TigerSuperman and Another48Hours, throwing around strawman arguments and desperately trying to derail the topic...

Clearly the person who took that first screenshot most likely took it from a blury old interlaced SDTV with very little contrast, but for some reason you think it was emulated? Even though I just showed you that an emulated screenshot looks nothing like that? Honestly, what are you even trying to prove by banging on about this one point over and over again? Have you even forgotten about the reason I even posted that picture? You know, that thing about the draw distance, which you've failed to disprove?

The point is that Shenmue was widely regarded as the most technically impressive video game of 1999, and that is the reason why it was the most expensive game up until then. So far, nothing you've posted has disproved this.

EDIT:

By the way, if you still think that first screenshot is emulated/photoshopped, here's some footage from the original game to prove it isn't:

http://youtu.be/BNDChSl42Xw?t=1m8s

Happy now? Are are you just going to claim that YouTube video is emulated/photoshopped? Geez, if you're trying to hide your connection to TigerSuperman, you're doing a pretty bad job of it, because you're behaving just like he does...

Jag85

You must be blind...

Here's a screenshot from the video I just posted:

Here's the screenshot I originally posted before that:

Now tell me what the difference is other than the screenshot fron the video being darker and lower (240p) resolution?

Seriously, your delusions about the screenshot being emulated/photoshopped/doctored is just getting plain ridiculous now...

And are you kidding me with that video? So the only way you can prove that Shenmue is suffering from pop-ins is by posting a bug testing video with a bug cheat enabled that lets you fly through walls? Honestly, I don't even know why I even bother taking you seriously sometimes...

And yeah, after all those posts of rambling, you've still proven nothing. Even your entire argument rests on very shaky grounds... If the game's graphics was not so impressive for its time like you claim (which you have still failed to prove), then where did most of that $70 million go? Your arguments just don't make any sense, mate.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"] I actually going to be straight-forward now, you're a jackass. Period.

You did not bring up any of my points at all, because you have no argument. Your youtube video proves that the image you had showed me was touched up, and i had clearly gave you a list of similarities. Instead of talking about that, you result to personal attacks, and accusations with more backpedaling. But my main issue with this is that you never played Shenmue a say in your life or even really looked at much gameplay at all that probably was not from an emulator, since you just grabbed the first random pic, as seen here:

http://www.google.com/search?gs_rn=17&gs_ri=psy-ab&cp=5&gs_id=i&xhr=t&q=shenmue&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&biw=1600&bih=799&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=1QzbUYXLLsew4API2oGgBA#um=1&hl=en&tbm=isch&sa=1&q=shenmue+1&oq=shenmue+1&gs_l=img.3..0l2j0i24l8.22007.22557.0.23671.2.2.0.0.0.0.48.90.2.2.0...0.0.0..1c.1.17.img.rj96usmBdrw&bav=on.2,or.r_qf.&bvm=bv.48705608,d.dmg&fp=ad102285a8e3d627&biw=1600&bih=799&facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=4-iC1aUh7aMovM%3A%3BJZ216Kb5mOOvbM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.segabits.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2010%252F10%252Fshenmue3.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fsegabits.com%252Fblog%252Ftag%252Fshenmue-city%252Fpage%252F2%252F%3B500%3B375

You would not have even done that if you even played the games or knew more about. The graphics in your crane old lady pic are not even the same as those in Shenmue 1, not even close. Another reason why I know you never played the game in your life is because everyone who has KNOWS, that the draw distance is bad. Half the objects, details, and NPC's, pop-in from 3 feet away, all over the game, that you never played. Due to the lack of draw distance for most things in the game, crashing your forklift into the other, often makes that forklift disappear because the games was not made to recognize that to draw. I also never said anything about it not being the most expensive games for the time. Something you pulled to gain attention to yourself.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SiZniNWf0Fg

After 15-20 seconds, notice all the texture, npc, and detail pop-in (and glitches, but that's a separate issue.)

Now what? I still proved nothing? lol.NationProtector

You must be blind...

Here's a screenshot from the video I just posted:

Here's the screenshot I originally posted before that:

Now tell me what the difference is other than the screenshot fron the video being darker and lower (240p) resolution?

Seriously, your delusions about the screenshot being emulated/photoshopped/doctored is just getting plain ridiculous now...

And are you kidding me with that video? So the only way you can prove that Shenmue is suffering from pop-ins is by posting a bug testing video with a bug cheat enabled that lets you fly through walls? Honestly, I don't even know why I even bother taking you seriously sometimes...

And yeah, after all those posts of rambling, you've still proven nothing. Even your entire argument rests on very shaky grounds... If the game's graphics was not so impressive for its time like you claim (which you have still failed to prove), then where did most of that $70 million go? Your arguments just don't make any sense, mate.

Once again, you sound just like TigerSuperman, right down to the very same insults...

Anyway, what is "first image is not even there" supposed to mean?

Also, when did I even deny that NPC's only appear when you're within a few meters near them? When I was talking about draw distances, I was obviously talking about the environments, not the NPC's.

And finally, the question you forgot to answer: "If the game's graphics was not so impressive for its time like you claim (which you have still failed to prove), then where did most of that $70 million go?"

[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

While Yakuza's sales in the Western world isn't any better than Shenmue (maybe even less than Shenmue), the reason why Sega keep making so many Yakuza games is because they are big hits in Japan.

You also have to keep in mind the currency exchange rates between the Japanese Yen and the US Dollar. Nowadays, the Japanese Yen has a high value compared to the US Dollar, which is bad news for Japanese companies because it means less profit from exports. Selling twice as many units overseas generates less profit than a game that sells half as much in the domestic Japanese market, hence why so many Japanese companies today focus more on the domestic market rather than the overseas markets.

Shenmue was more successful overseas than it was in Japan. If Shenmue III was released, it might become quite successful overseas, but it's unlikely to become a major hit in Japan, where there's more profit to be made. Despite many overseas Sega fans demanding Shenmue III, that most likely won't happen unless we have just as many Japanese fans also demanding Shenmue III.

Jag85

yakuza also isn't selling better in japan than shenmue was, and definitely not outside of japan. not a single yakuza game for instance has outsold shenmue 1, and that is a testament to shenmue 1 sales 13 years ago on a platform that had only 6 million users at the time

http://www.the-magicbox.com/charts.htm

• The original Shenmue sold no more than 300,000 units in Japan. In comparison, it sold more than 460,000 units in the United States.
• Shenmue II only sold about 125,000 units in Japan.

http://garaph.info/softwaregroup.php?grid=47

• The original Yakuza sold about 830,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 2 sold about 920,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 3 sold about 600,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 4 & 5 both sold about 580,000 units each in Japan.
• And even Yakuza: Of the End sold more than 410,000 units in Japan.

It's clear that Yakuza is a far more profitable franchise for Sega than Shenmue ever was, unfortunately.

shenmue 1 has sold almost half a million copies in japan according to vgchartz. it was also the number 1 best selling game upon it's releas ein late 99 for a few weeks. shenmue had multiple versions sold inclduing the english language one. all versions combined sold half a million in japan. yakuza games sell a little more, maybe 550 or 600, but not much more on a far larger install base. also the magicbox is very wrong often inclduyign shenmue 1 us sales, which were way more than 460,000 even according to official npd figures shenmue 1 sold almost 600,000 in usa and back then npd didn't list a number of big media chains like funcoland and eb I think. so the number is quite higher even then that.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="NationProtector"]

http://www.nowgamer.com/features/921572/the_history_of_mortal_kombat.htmlNationProtector

Well since your link has an later date, I will assume it is more up to date. Fair enough on this, but back to Shenmue. (edit again#3, this says nothing about MKI having their engine based on street fighters II template, heck, the MK engine for the first game is horrible. MK would not have went anywhere without 2. But if you meant Template as in response (which makes no sense) then yes you are right, but that's not what I was talking about. But that doesn't matter, SF and MK are the top fighters in the world imo with Virtua Fighter 3, which I need to rebuy, so hell if I care, back to shenmue. )

(Also surprised Shenmue Fan did not come in and tell you that was not Shenmue II.)

Edit #6( The other pic you had with the ledge is pressed and emulated, even thouh it's nothing but bland texture and one character model, so it's either Null DC, or a Bull shot..)

Edit #7( and once we get some shenmue shots, we should compare to PS2 Yakuza graphics and see what changed.)

I didn't say MK borrowed the SFII engine, but that it was designed around the template set by SFII. Anyway, it seems we already agree on this, so let's leave it at that.

I didn't realize the pic was from Shenmue II, since it looks very similar to the first game, not that it matters much anyway.

How can those Shenmue screenshots be "emulated" if they clearly have SDTV resolutions, even with the interlacing? It looks nothing like the crisp hi-res shots you'd get from Null DC...

And finally, it looks like some have already compared Shenmue to Yakuza above... As far as the PS2 Yakuza's go, the graphical quality seems like a step down from Shenmue rather than a step up.

both those pictures are ridiculous. the game looks a ton better on my vga box on hdtv. pictuires are a joke anyway to use. I've not seen any picture that captured the true hd graphics of shenmue (2) for instance

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="bultje112"]

yakuza also isn't selling better in japan than shenmue was, and definitely not outside of japan. not a single yakuza game for instance has outsold shenmue 1, and that is a testament to shenmue 1 sales 13 years ago on a platform that had only 6 million users at the time

bultje112

http://www.the-magicbox.com/charts.htm

• The original Shenmue sold no more than 300,000 units in Japan. In comparison, it sold more than 460,000 units in the United States.
• Shenmue II only sold about 125,000 units in Japan.

http://garaph.info/softwaregroup.php?grid=47

• The original Yakuza sold about 830,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 2 sold about 920,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 3 sold about 600,000 units in Japan.
• Yakuza 4 & 5 both sold about 580,000 units each in Japan.
• And even Yakuza: Of the End sold more than 410,000 units in Japan.

It's clear that Yakuza is a far more profitable franchise for Sega than Shenmue ever was, unfortunately.

shenmue 1 has sold almost half a million copies in japan according to vgchartz. it was also the number 1 best selling game upon it's releas ein late 99 for a few weeks. shenmue had multiple versions sold inclduing the english language one. all versions combined sold half a million in japan. yakuza games sell a little more, maybe 550 or 600, but not much more on a far larger install base. also the magicbox is very wrong often inclduyign shenmue 1 us sales, which were way more than 460,000 even according to official npd figures shenmue 1 sold almost 600,000 in usa and back then npd didn't list a number of big media chains like funcoland and eb I think. so the number is quite higher even then that.

However, the figures I gave for the original Shenmue may be incomplete, since they are only for the year 2000. It lacks any Japanese sales in December 1999, since it failed to land in the Japan top 100 that year. It also lacks any US/Japan sales in 2001, since the game failed to land in the Japan top 100 that year and the site only has the US top 10 for 2000. So yes, the actual figures could be a bit higher than that, but not by much, since the year 2000 covers most of its sales.

Even if we were to use VGChartz, it lists Shenmue as having sold 380,000 in Japan and 520,000 in the US (with a worldwide total of 1.18 million, including Europe and elsewhere). This is still much less than what the Yakuza games I listed above have sold in Japan.

By the way, do you have a source for Shenmue selling 600,000 in the US?