What went wrong with the Saturn?

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#-49 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"] The Saturn is a 32-bit system with CD storage, which is what the combo was going to be the the Saturn is far superior tech wise=modernixzed. you can't be this dumb. First of all, I said higher perspective correctness, you do realize that the floors in 3D fighting games in PSX versions and Saturn versions or usually noticeably different right? Why do you think that is magic? Thus the above means that textures on environments can be less wrapped than those on the playstation. Also the VDP1 can render polygons so now all of a sudden the Cpu's can't render 3D? Because they can, and uh, the Cpu's are the main problem for why the capabilities are limited in the first place All this is are troll attempts, you are getting answers but you are ignoring them, or are making up things as it seems.

ah , finally we are getting somewhere. 1) the 32bits mean nothing in this, in my book , modernized means updated, an evolution , so to speak , and yet with the exception of the CPUs , the 32X shares very little with the Saturn. 2) you are indeed correct that the floors are perspective correct , but those are not 3D polygon floors, these are 2D floors drawn by the VDP2 in most cases, its a totally different thing. 3) ah , well done , youve now identified the part of the Saturn which renders the polygons (or does the grunt work of it) , but this presents a problem for your theory. if the VDP1 is the chip which renders the polygons (and it is) , then the Saturn could not have had the 3D capability added at the last minute, as the VDP1 is also what renders sprites (the machine's supposidly original intent). so evidently, 3D was not added on at the last minute, the CPU might of, but not the 3D ability itself, RAM is also a candidate. so this presents us with a few possibilities 1) the CPU was added in to give the Saturn more geometry calcuation ability 2) more RAM was added to compete with the newer 5th gen systems (mainly the 3DO at that time) , which had 2MB of RAM standard. 3) the Saturn was complex from the begining.

1)I was thinking more of a replacement/successor than an update when i said modernized. 2)Not exactly, since character models also benefit in certain cases due to the high perspective correctness, when you compare them to PSX counter parts. 3)No, that's exactly what I means by tacked on, the system was not intended to use the VDP1 as a 3D processor, and as such, the VDP2 was slapped on instead of them making away to take advantage of the DP1's current ability and expanding it, and instead used a crappy workaround. Many 3D games are limited because of the 2nd processor, and at the same time, without the VDP2, certain 3D games would not exist or look anything like they do. Use fighters as an example. The VDP2, helps with perspective correlation as it is good with it and can also help removed certain issues with textures on models. At the same time, the VDP2 actually adds to the already problematic software programming on the Saturn as it comes with many graphical limitations that prevent other types of 3D games to be prevalent on the Saturn, or at least without issues. The combination of both create things like Virtua Fighter and FIghters Megamix, which would not even look close with just the VDP1, and the VDP2 is pretty much tacked on.

1) thats not what you said, but ok, I will assume it was a mistake or misunderstanding. 2)nope, no perspective correction on any polygons, just less warping due to the rendering process. the main reason to use the VDP2 to render 2D floors however , was to use less polygons (something important that gen), even more so given the VDP1 wasn't all that fast, sports games use this system too. Gungriffon is interesting because it uses the VDP2 for both the ground and the sky (after which , 3D hills and objects are put on top) 3) VDP2 is indeed another possibility, although I have a feeling it was always meant to be there, the VDP1 was always meant to run some 3D though.
#-48 Posted by Eliminatorcanon (36 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] ah , finally we are getting somewhere. 1) the 32bits mean nothing in this, in my book , modernized means updated, an evolution , so to speak , and yet with the exception of the CPUs , the 32X shares very little with the Saturn. 2) you are indeed correct that the floors are perspective correct , but those are not 3D polygon floors, these are 2D floors drawn by the VDP2 in most cases, its a totally different thing. 3) ah , well done , youve now identified the part of the Saturn which renders the polygons (or does the grunt work of it) , but this presents a problem for your theory. if the VDP1 is the chip which renders the polygons (and it is) , then the Saturn could not have had the 3D capability added at the last minute, as the VDP1 is also what renders sprites (the machine's supposidly original intent). so evidently, 3D was not added on at the last minute, the CPU might of, but not the 3D ability itself, RAM is also a candidate. so this presents us with a few possibilities 1) the CPU was added in to give the Saturn more geometry calcuation ability 2) more RAM was added to compete with the newer 5th gen systems (mainly the 3DO at that time) , which had 2MB of RAM standard. 3) the Saturn was complex from the begining.

1)I was thinking more of a replacement/successor than an update when i said modernized. 2)Not exactly, since character models also benefit in certain cases due to the high perspective correctness, when you compare them to PSX counter parts. 3)No, that's exactly what I means by tacked on, the system was not intended to use the VDP1 as a 3D processor, and as such, the VDP2 was slapped on instead of them making away to take advantage of the DP1's current ability and expanding it, and instead used a crappy workaround. Many 3D games are limited because of the 2nd processor, and at the same time, without the VDP2, certain 3D games would not exist or look anything like they do. Use fighters as an example. The VDP2, helps with perspective correlation as it is good with it and can also help removed certain issues with textures on models. At the same time, the VDP2 actually adds to the already problematic software programming on the Saturn as it comes with many graphical limitations that prevent other types of 3D games to be prevalent on the Saturn, or at least without issues. The combination of both create things like Virtua Fighter and FIghters Megamix, which would not even look close with just the VDP1, and the VDP2 is pretty much tacked on.

1) thats not what you said, but ok, I will assume it was a mistake or misunderstanding. 2)nope, no perspective correction on any polygons, just less warping due to the rendering process. the main reason to use the VDP2 to render 2D floors however , was to use less polygons (something important that gen), even more so given the VDP1 wasn't all that fast, sports games use this system too. Gungriffon is interesting because it uses the VDP2 for both the ground and the sky (after which , 3D hills and objects are put on top) 3) VDP2 is indeed another possibility, although I have a feeling it was always meant to be there, the VDP1 was always meant to run some 3D though.

1) yeah, as I said, it was basically what the combo would have been but better anyway ans thus modernized. We just had conflicting definitions. I think the term you are looking for is upgraded. 2)So all textures on character models have to be in 3D? Like I said, there's a reason models in a lot of cases look smoother than PSX alternatives, and there can be thing the VDP2 can do to cause that. Has nothing to do with ONLY polygons. Such as floors. 3)The VDP2, doesn't seem to have been intended the whole time since it scars programming and it creates tons of limitations for 3D like games, and seems to aid the VPS1 best in doing certain back effects for 3D games. Which was not what the Saturn was intended for, at least the late 3DO/PSX/N64 type of 3d. Personally i think that additional CPU was a bad idea.
#-47 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"] 1)I was thinking more of a replacement/successor than an update when i said modernized. 2)Not exactly, since character models also benefit in certain cases due to the high perspective correctness, when you compare them to PSX counter parts. 3)No, that's exactly what I means by tacked on, the system was not intended to use the VDP1 as a 3D processor, and as such, the VDP2 was slapped on instead of them making away to take advantage of the DP1's current ability and expanding it, and instead used a crappy workaround. Many 3D games are limited because of the 2nd processor, and at the same time, without the VDP2, certain 3D games would not exist or look anything like they do. Use fighters as an example. The VDP2, helps with perspective correlation as it is good with it and can also help removed certain issues with textures on models. At the same time, the VDP2 actually adds to the already problematic software programming on the Saturn as it comes with many graphical limitations that prevent other types of 3D games to be prevalent on the Saturn, or at least without issues. The combination of both create things like Virtua Fighter and FIghters Megamix, which would not even look close with just the VDP1, and the VDP2 is pretty much tacked on.

1) thats not what you said, but ok, I will assume it was a mistake or misunderstanding. 2)nope, no perspective correction on any polygons, just less warping due to the rendering process. the main reason to use the VDP2 to render 2D floors however , was to use less polygons (something important that gen), even more so given the VDP1 wasn't all that fast, sports games use this system too. Gungriffon is interesting because it uses the VDP2 for both the ground and the sky (after which , 3D hills and objects are put on top) 3) VDP2 is indeed another possibility, although I have a feeling it was always meant to be there, the VDP1 was always meant to run some 3D though.

1) yeah, as I said, it was basically what the combo would have been but better anyway ans thus modernized. We just had conflicting definitions. I think the term you are looking for is upgraded. 2)So all textures on character models have to be in 3D? Like I said, there's a reason models in a lot of cases look smoother than PSX alternatives, and there can be thing the VDP2 can do to cause that. Has nothing to do with ONLY polygons. Such as floors. 3)The VDP2, doesn't seem to have been intended the whole time since it scars programming and it creates tons of limitations for 3D like games, and seems to aid the VPS1 best in doing certain back effects for 3D games. Which was not what the Saturn was intended for, at least the late 3DO/PSX/N64 type of 3d. Personally i think that additional CPU was a bad idea.

1), Saturn was a sucessor, there is no real comparison with the 32X tbh, the 32X is really, for the most part, just the 2 SH2s, that do most of the work, wheres the Saturn is a full system. 2) smoother ? na , the shading made PS1 games smoother, just more distorted. unless, of course, you can provide me with examples perspective correction on characters , since Ive never seen this in any of the 90+ games I have for the system. 3)Ive never heard of any limitations the VDP2 has on 3D games, and generally effects on the Saturn (thats not 2D effects done by the VDP2) , were done in software, and not by the VDP2. the additional CPU was stupid, but there was a reason for it, Sega figured it was cheaper to have 2 weaker CPUs, as opposed to one more capable one. additionally, Sega and Hitachi were close , hence why Sega went with Hitachi, which at that time didn't have a capable enough CPU at an affordable price, hence using two.
#-46 Posted by Eliminatorcanon (36 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] 1) thats not what you said, but ok, I will assume it was a mistake or misunderstanding. 2)nope, no perspective correction on any polygons, just less warping due to the rendering process. the main reason to use the VDP2 to render 2D floors however , was to use less polygons (something important that gen), even more so given the VDP1 wasn't all that fast, sports games use this system too. Gungriffon is interesting because it uses the VDP2 for both the ground and the sky (after which , 3D hills and objects are put on top) 3) VDP2 is indeed another possibility, although I have a feeling it was always meant to be there, the VDP1 was always meant to run some 3D though.

1) yeah, as I said, it was basically what the combo would have been but better anyway ans thus modernized. We just had conflicting definitions. I think the term you are looking for is upgraded. 2)So all textures on character models have to be in 3D? Like I said, there's a reason models in a lot of cases look smoother than PSX alternatives, and there can be thing the VDP2 can do to cause that. Has nothing to do with ONLY polygons. Such as floors. 3)The VDP2, doesn't seem to have been intended the whole time since it scars programming and it creates tons of limitations for 3D like games, and seems to aid the VPS1 best in doing certain back effects for 3D games. Which was not what the Saturn was intended for, at least the late 3DO/PSX/N64 type of 3d. Personally i think that additional CPU was a bad idea.

1), Saturn was a sucessor, there is no real comparison with the 32X tbh, the 32X is really, for the most part, just the 2 SH2s, that do most of the work, wheres the Saturn is a full system. 2) smoother ? na , the shading made PS1 games smoother, just more distorted. unless, of course, you can provide me with examples perspective correction on characters , since Ive never seen this in any of the 90+ games I have for the system. 3)Ive never heard of any limitations the VDP2 has on 3D games, and generally effects on the Saturn (thats not 2D effects done by the VDP2) , were done in software, and not by the VDP2. the additional CPU was stupid, but there was a reason for it, Sega figured it was cheaper to have 2 weaker CPUs, as opposed to one more capable one. additionally, Sega and Hitachi were close , hence why Sega went with Hitachi, which at that time didn't have a capable enough CPU at an affordable price, hence using two.

1) Again for the 500th time, the Saturn is a 32-bit system with CD storage. AGAIN. I did not make any comparisons to the 32x. ANYWHERE. 2)You haven't seen 2D pictures on 3d models before in 5th gen? Where most things that are put on the models not closed are usually 2D? Really? 3)The VDP2 using correlation for floors in fighting games for example weakens it's ability to draw expansive background, or outlines of which polygons can be rendered onto which is why it would be hard for a game like Spyro or OoT to run on the Saturn. Games those sizes would be difficult. The VDP2 would struggle and would cause the VPD1 to fill in missing space, which it can't do because it's focusing on polygons and other CPU related evetns.
#-45 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -
[QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"] 1) yeah, as I said, it was basically what the combo would have been but better anyway ans thus modernized. We just had conflicting definitions. I think the term you are looking for is upgraded. 2)So all textures on character models have to be in 3D? Like I said, there's a reason models in a lot of cases look smoother than PSX alternatives, and there can be thing the VDP2 can do to cause that. Has nothing to do with ONLY polygons. Such as floors. 3)The VDP2, doesn't seem to have been intended the whole time since it scars programming and it creates tons of limitations for 3D like games, and seems to aid the VPS1 best in doing certain back effects for 3D games. Which was not what the Saturn was intended for, at least the late 3DO/PSX/N64 type of 3d. Personally i think that additional CPU was a bad idea.

1), Saturn was a sucessor, there is no real comparison with the 32X tbh, the 32X is really, for the most part, just the 2 SH2s, that do most of the work, wheres the Saturn is a full system. 2) smoother ? na , the shading made PS1 games smoother, just more distorted. unless, of course, you can provide me with examples perspective correction on characters , since Ive never seen this in any of the 90+ games I have for the system. 3)Ive never heard of any limitations the VDP2 has on 3D games, and generally effects on the Saturn (thats not 2D effects done by the VDP2) , were done in software, and not by the VDP2. the additional CPU was stupid, but there was a reason for it, Sega figured it was cheaper to have 2 weaker CPUs, as opposed to one more capable one. additionally, Sega and Hitachi were close , hence why Sega went with Hitachi, which at that time didn't have a capable enough CPU at an affordable price, hence using two.

1) Again for the 500th time, the Saturn is a 32-bit system with CD storage. AGAIN. I did not make any comparisons to the 32x. ANYWHERE. 2)You haven't seen 2D pictures on 3d models before in 5th gen? Where most things that are put on the models not closed are usually 2D? Really? 3)The VDP2 using correlation for floors in fighting games for example weakens it's ability to draw expansive background, or outlines of which polygons can be rendered onto which is why it would be hard for a game like Spyro or OoT to run on the Saturn. Games those sizes would be difficult. The VDP2 would struggle and would cause the VPD1 to fill in missing space, which it can't do because it's focusing on polygons and other CPU related evetns.

1) lets assume that 2)sure , but its got nothing to do with things being smoother or not. and smoother does not mean perspective correct. 3) then there is no need for any correction , and Ocarina would be different in the same way that Bulk Slash would be different on N64, Ocarina on the Saturn would end up looking like a Panzer Dragoon Saga clone. Spyro could have been decently done though.
#-44 Posted by Eliminatorcanon (36 posts) -
[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] 1), Saturn was a sucessor, there is no real comparison with the 32X tbh, the 32X is really, for the most part, just the 2 SH2s, that do most of the work, wheres the Saturn is a full system. 2) smoother ? na , the shading made PS1 games smoother, just more distorted. unless, of course, you can provide me with examples perspective correction on characters , since Ive never seen this in any of the 90+ games I have for the system. 3)Ive never heard of any limitations the VDP2 has on 3D games, and generally effects on the Saturn (thats not 2D effects done by the VDP2) , were done in software, and not by the VDP2. the additional CPU was stupid, but there was a reason for it, Sega figured it was cheaper to have 2 weaker CPUs, as opposed to one more capable one. additionally, Sega and Hitachi were close , hence why Sega went with Hitachi, which at that time didn't have a capable enough CPU at an affordable price, hence using two.

1) Again for the 500th time, the Saturn is a 32-bit system with CD storage. AGAIN. I did not make any comparisons to the 32x. ANYWHERE. 2)You haven't seen 2D pictures on 3d models before in 5th gen? Where most things that are put on the models not closed are usually 2D? Really? 3)The VDP2 using correlation for floors in fighting games for example weakens it's ability to draw expansive background, or outlines of which polygons can be rendered onto which is why it would be hard for a game like Spyro or OoT to run on the Saturn. Games those sizes would be difficult. The VDP2 would struggle and would cause the VPD1 to fill in missing space, which it can't do because it's focusing on polygons and other CPU related evetns.

1) lets assume that 2)sure , but its got nothing to do with things being smoother or not. and smoother does not mean perspective correct. 3) then there is no need for any correction , and Ocarina would be different in the same way that Bulk Slash would be different on N64, Ocarina on the Saturn would end up looking like a Panzer Dragoon Saga clone. Spyro could have been decently done though.

1)? 2)The VDP2 is a key for floors in fighting games to be corrected, the floors are 2D. The VDP2 can also enhance 2D features. Even something as simple as eyes on a 3D model. Which the eyse are 2D. So of which in all 2D features, the VDP2 can achieve higher correctness than the PSX, which has none whatsoever in 2D features, which are also usually wrapped. Heck in some cases everything on the model but the model is 2D. 3)I don't see how you can see Spyro being done at all. Especially decently. They would have to cut tons of content, shrink most the levels and remove alot of things that move and use A.I. as the VDp1 would be overworked to death and would be doing some the the VDP2's job considering its limits. Impossible to run it in native form.
#-43 Posted by penpusher (3573 posts) -

Browsing the replies I can see people getting very upset with each other over this :s You do realise its not that big a deal right? :S

[QUOTE="penpusher"]

Just as many other people have already said it was a combination of things. For one thing the Saturn didnt get a build up to release like most consoles do, as I recall all sega did was just suddenly say "oh its out in a month or two" or something to that affect and retailers were just expected to deal with it. Thus a suprising amount of retailers refused to sell it when it came out.

There was also the fact that not enough developers wanted to support it because as a system it was powerful, but as a platform for developing games it was nothing short of a pain in the backside thanks to what sounds like a hideous multi processor architecture, which made programming much more diffifult and expensive than was needed. That resulted in not enough games to back up the system.

It also didnt help that Sega had kind of alienated its fan base a fair bit with the likes of the 32x.

Oh and obviously the playstation really, seriously, didnt help.

I dont own one at the moment, but I will be doing because despite its flop it looks like it has some awesome games :D

bultje112

the third party thing is really bs. initially third party support was huge for the saturn. because it was sega and a pretty save bet it would be succesful. however when sales were bad third parties pulled out. the ps3 and ps2 were/are hard to program for. did it stop companies to develop?? of course not. because it sells well.

Calm down dude. Just relaying something a programmer who worked in gaming told me once. He reckoned 3rd party developers (his self included) werent to chuffed about the systems architecture. It did put off companies who would otherwise have supported it. And I'm not to upto date with the saturn other than that, I just know that a significant number of fans were alienated by the 32x and its 3rd party support in the west wasnt good enough.

#-42 Posted by bultje112 (1867 posts) -

There's no complex reason at all or combinations of reasons. The Saturn was stupidly designed. it was made to be a CD/32X into one and released as such and slapped some 3D power in it. Both of those just caused it to be a mess to make games for and no one gave a hoot to even try. The second thing is that Sega once again forgot people buy game systems to play games, and just like the Master system did virtually no advertising or promotions for certain games to get people into the system, so it was not only a risk to buy, it was a risk for sales success for developers. That's literally it. Remove the design, more devs support and the Saturn would have gained more games and promotion from companies and word of mouth from players because it had more supported games. Remove lack of focusing on promoting games means people know it has games and all those dumb rumors about the Saturn that were around would not exist. More consumers, more profit, and more.Eliminatorcanon

lol @ this idiotic nonsense

#-41 Posted by bultje112 (1867 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"] I never said that the Saturn was a CD/32X add-on buddy.Eliminatorcanon
I will quote you "it was made to be a CD/32X into one and released as such , and slapped some 3D power in it" the addon part was a mistake by me, but thats a minor point, the point is that claiming this, is dumb, its not correct in terms of hardware, or even the way it was designed.

The whole reason they cancelled the 32x/cd combo WAS for the Saturn which was basically that machine modernized (for 2d) and slapped with 3D modeling. It was basically made to take it's place because it was a 32-bit CD system. The issue though again, is that it was not designed with the same though at the PSX and the N64, and therefore, especially with dual Cpu's and slapped on 3D processing, was a disaster to make games for.

you are totally clueless here. the reason they canceled the 32x/cd combo was because the 32x and sega cd were dead

do I even need to point out that the 32x and the sega saturn were released at virtually the same time? your whole post makes no sense. thanks for the good laugh though

#-40 Posted by Panzer_Zwei (15442 posts) -

What went wrong with the Saturn is the way that it got discontinued in 1998. It was very different than the way it happened with the Dreamcast, since SEGA continued to support the DC for a couple of years past its discontinuation.

The discontination of the SS however felt more like a betrayal, as it left a lot of developers hanging. Third parties that devoted their exclusive titles to the SS started porting their games to the PlayStation at this point.

The Mega Drive with Sonic, Phantasy Star, and all of its excellent exclusive titles totally failed in Japan, at a time when success in that country was essential to gain third party support.

The SS was way more popular than the MD ever was, and the system was only behind the PS. Way, way behind if you will, but still second place since the Nintendo 64 and PC-FX bombed.

I think the SS could've been if anything, a turning point for SEGA. But it just seems that for some reason the company was hell-bent on trying to be on the vanguard.

#-39 Posted by Heirren (17786 posts) -

What went wrong with the Saturn is the way that it got discontinued in 1998. It was very different than the way it happened with the Dreamcast, since SEGA continued to support the DC for a couple of years past its discontinuation.

The discontination of the SS however felt more like a betrayal, as it left a lot of developers hanging. Third parties that devoted their exclusive titles to the SS started porting their games to the PlayStation at this point.

The Mega Drive with Sonic, Phantasy Star, and all of its excellent exclusive titles totally failed in Japan, at a time when success in that country was essential to gain third party support.

The SS was way more popular than the MD ever was, and the system was only behind the PS. Way, way behind if you will, but still second place since the Nintendo 64 and PC-FX bombed.

I think the SS could've been if anything, a turning point for SEGA. But it just seems that for some reason the company was hell-bent on trying to be on the vanguard.

Panzer_Zwei
Saturn was more popular than Genesis? Cmon now, Genesis achieved pop culture status--it is one of the most popular home consoles ever produced. In short, the Saturn failed because of poor managerial decisions, which started late in the life cycle of the genesis.
#-38 Posted by Panzer_Zwei (15442 posts) -

[QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

What went wrong with the Saturn is the way that it got discontinued in 1998. It was very different than the way it happened with the Dreamcast, since SEGA continued to support the DC for a couple of years past its discontinuation.

The discontination of the SS however felt more like a betrayal, as it left a lot of developers hanging. Third parties that devoted their exclusive titles to the SS started porting their games to the PlayStation at this point.

The Mega Drive with Sonic, Phantasy Star, and all of its excellent exclusive titles totally failed in Japan, at a time when success in that country was essential to gain third party support.

The SS was way more popular than the MD ever was, and the system was only behind the PS. Way, way behind if you will, but still second place since the Nintendo 64 and PC-FX bombed.

I think the SS could've been if anything, a turning point for SEGA. But it just seems that for some reason the company was hell-bent on trying to be on the vanguard.

Heirren

Saturn was more popular than Genesis? Cmon now, Genesis achieved pop culture status--it is one of the most popular home consoles ever produced. In short, the Saturn failed because of poor managerial decisions, which started late in the life cycle of the genesis.

Not in Japan. There the system fell behind even the PC-Engine. Though I think in the end they became quite even.

I don't remember the exact number right now, but the total list of MD software released in Japan is was very pitful and it's only a fraction of what was released overseas.

The Mega Drive is probably more popular now than how it was back then.


EDIT : The Mega Drive complete software list is of 554 titles. This comprises all games released for the system and the MEGA-CD and Super 32-X enhancing attachments.

It's worth noting of course that the list doesn't discrimiate games that were released on the MD as well as for any of its attachments. All count towards the list.

The SEGA Saturn software list was 1,057. Double of that of the MD.

For reference, the PC-ENGINE released over 500 games alone on CD-ROM format.

#-37 Posted by Eliminatorcanon (36 posts) -

[QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"][QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I will quote you "it was made to be a CD/32X into one and released as such , and slapped some 3D power in it" the addon part was a mistake by me, but thats a minor point, the point is that claiming this, is dumb, its not correct in terms of hardware, or even the way it was designed.bultje112

The whole reason they cancelled the 32x/cd combo WAS for the Saturn which was basically that machine modernized (for 2d) and slapped with 3D modeling. It was basically made to take it's place because it was a 32-bit CD system. The issue though again, is that it was not designed with the same though at the PSX and the N64, and therefore, especially with dual Cpu's and slapped on 3D processing, was a disaster to make games for.

you are totally clueless here. the reason they canceled the 32x/cd combo was because the 32x and sega cd were dead

do I even need to point out that the 32x and the sega saturn were released at virtually the same time? your whole post makes no sense. thanks for the good laugh though

I see you can't read or even looked at other posts which actually even Darkman was able to understand. Maybe you should lay off? Thanks for the laugh though.
#-36 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

I think it would be interesting to see how games written exclusively for the 32X + SCD combo would look like.

They would probably come close to the Saturn, even tho Saturn still had a slight advantage with more RAM and the video display processors.

But at the same time there were very few who owned that combo and not many devs would be willing to bother with tons of processors that combination offered (about 14 processors in total, if we count all Genesis + SCD + 32X chips and many kilobytes of scattered RAM).

#-35 Posted by Supertornado (67 posts) -

lazy devs

#-34 Posted by GaussRiemann (183 posts) -

[QUOTE="Heirren"][QUOTE="Panzer_Zwei"]

What went wrong with the Saturn is the way that it got discontinued in 1998. It was very different than the way it happened with the Dreamcast, since SEGA continued to support the DC for a couple of years past its discontinuation.

The discontination of the SS however felt more like a betrayal, as it left a lot of developers hanging. Third parties that devoted their exclusive titles to the SS started porting their games to the PlayStation at this point.

The Mega Drive with Sonic, Phantasy Star, and all of its excellent exclusive titles totally failed in Japan, at a time when success in that country was essential to gain third party support.

The SS was way more popular than the MD ever was, and the system was only behind the PS. Way, way behind if you will, but still second place since the Nintendo 64 and PC-FX bombed.

I think the SS could've been if anything, a turning point for SEGA. But it just seems that for some reason the company was hell-bent on trying to be on the vanguard.

Panzer_Zwei

Saturn was more popular than Genesis? Cmon now, Genesis achieved pop culture status--it is one of the most popular home consoles ever produced. In short, the Saturn failed because of poor managerial decisions, which started late in the life cycle of the genesis.

Not in Japan. There the system fell behind even the PC-Engine. Though I think in the end they became quite even.

I don't remember the exact number right now, but the total list of MD software released in Japan is was very pitful and it's only a fraction of what was released overseas.

The Mega Drive is probably more popular now than how it was back then.


EDIT : The Mega Drive complete software list is of 554 titles. This comprises all games released for the system and the MEGA-CD and Super 32-X enhancing attachments.

It's worth noting of course that the list doesn't discrimiate games that were released on the MD as well as for any of its attachments. All count towards the list.

The SEGA Saturn software list was 1,057. Double of that of the MD.

For reference, the PC-ENGINE released over 500 games alone on CD-ROM format.

554 is not correct. The Genesis / Mega Drive saw almost 700 releases in the US alone. Altogether, there are about 890 games, Mega CD and 32X games not included.

As far as I know, the Genesis / Mega Drive is Sega's most successful console altogether. However, it was not very popular in Japan, where it was only third behind the NES/SNES and PC-Engine. The Saturn did better than its predessors on the Japanese market, especially after Sega came up with Segata Sanshiro.

#-33 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

I've read that there are still Sega Genesises (Genesi?) being sold in some countries. Can't remember where I saw that, though.

#-32 Posted by Panzer_Zwei (15442 posts) -

554 is not correct. The Genesis / Mega Drive saw almost 700 releases in the US alone. Altogether, there are about 890 games, Mega CD and 32X games not included.

As far as I know, the Genesis / Mega Drive is Sega's most successful console altogether. However, it was not very popular in Japan, where it was only third behind the NES/SNES and PC-Engine. The Saturn did better than its predessors on the Japanese market, especially after Sega came up with Segata Sanshiro.

GaussRiemann

If you noticed I did mentioned this part :

"I don't remember the exact number right now, but the total list of MD software released in Japan is was very pitful and it's only a fraction of what was released overseas."

The total amount of MD software (MEGA-CD and Super 32X included) that was released in Japan was only of 554 titles.

The list can be found here if you want to check it for yourself :

#-31 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

I think it would be interesting to see how games written exclusively for the 32X + SCD combo would look like.

They would probably come close to the Saturn, even tho Saturn still had a slight advantage with more RAM and the video display processors.

But at the same time there were very few who owned that combo and not many devs would be willing to bother with tons of processors that combination offered (about 14 processors in total, if we count all Genesis + SCD + 32X chips and many kilobytes of scattered RAM).

nameless12345
you know thats nonsense, it would not come close, having more than twice the RAM (2MB vs 768Kb , not including VRAM, though the Saturn owns that too), and the two video chips are not slight, its a big deal (and this doesn't even count the speed of the RAM , sound chip , etc) hell , I don't think the 32X even has a proper video chip , , its done on the CPUs.
#-30 Posted by bultje112 (1867 posts) -

[QUOTE="bultje112"]

[QUOTE="Eliminatorcanon"] The whole reason they cancelled the 32x/cd combo WAS for the Saturn which was basically that machine modernized (for 2d) and slapped with 3D modeling. It was basically made to take it's place because it was a 32-bit CD system. The issue though again, is that it was not designed with the same though at the PSX and the N64, and therefore, especially with dual Cpu's and slapped on 3D processing, was a disaster to make games for.Eliminatorcanon

you are totally clueless here. the reason they canceled the 32x/cd combo was because the 32x and sega cd were dead

do I even need to point out that the 32x and the sega saturn were released at virtually the same time? your whole post makes no sense. thanks for the good laugh though

I see you can't read or even looked at other posts which actually even Darkman was able to understand. Maybe you should lay off? Thanks for the laugh though.

I shall not feed the troll any longer then

#-29 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I think it would be interesting to see how games written exclusively for the 32X + SCD combo would look like.

They would probably come close to the Saturn, even tho Saturn still had a slight advantage with more RAM and the video display processors.

But at the same time there were very few who owned that combo and not many devs would be willing to bother with tons of processors that combination offered (about 14 processors in total, if we count all Genesis + SCD + 32X chips and many kilobytes of scattered RAM).

Darkman2007

you know thats nonsense, it would not come close, having more than twice the RAM (2MB vs 768Kb , not including VRAM, though the Saturn owns that too), and the two video chips are not slight, its a big deal (and this doesn't even count the speed of the RAM , sound chip , etc) hell , I don't think the 32X even has a proper video chip , , its done on the CPUs.

You're not counting in everything.

MD + SCD + 32X is basically two MDs with Saturn's CPUs and a CD drive.

That's quite some power but of course I'm not deluding myself that anyone would be willing to explore all that potential (it's more than 14 different processors after all).

#-28 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I think it would be interesting to see how games written exclusively for the 32X + SCD combo would look like.

They would probably come close to the Saturn, even tho Saturn still had a slight advantage with more RAM and the video display processors.

But at the same time there were very few who owned that combo and not many devs would be willing to bother with tons of processors that combination offered (about 14 processors in total, if we count all Genesis + SCD + 32X chips and many kilobytes of scattered RAM).

nameless12345

you know thats nonsense, it would not come close, having more than twice the RAM (2MB vs 768Kb , not including VRAM, though the Saturn owns that too), and the two video chips are not slight, its a big deal (and this doesn't even count the speed of the RAM , sound chip , etc) hell , I don't think the 32X even has a proper video chip , , its done on the CPUs.

You're not counting in everything.

MD + SCD + 32X is basically two MDs with Saturn's CPUs and a CD drive.

That's quite some power but of course I'm not deluding myself that anyone would be willing to explore all that potential (it's more than 14 different processors after all).

no , its not 2 Mega Drives, its 2 68000s, a Mega Drive VDP and the ASIC chip , not the same. , then what you have is just 2 extremely outdated CPUs , 2 decent CPUs and an ancient Mega Drive VDP (with the ASIC chip doing some rotation effects), the Saturn's VDP chips are what makes all the difference here, I don't care what programming tricks people can come up with , but heres a test, try a game on a PC with intergrated graphics, and dedicated graphics (a current one) , and see which runs faster ......yeah , I think having a decent graphics chip makes a huge difference, and its no different here , on the 32X , the SH2s do the grunt work , simply because the 68000 are not really suitable for too much if youre trying to push out alot of polygons.
#-27 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] you know thats nonsense, it would not come close, having more than twice the RAM (2MB vs 768Kb , not including VRAM, though the Saturn owns that too), and the two video chips are not slight, its a big deal (and this doesn't even count the speed of the RAM , sound chip , etc) hell , I don't think the 32X even has a proper video chip , , its done on the CPUs.Darkman2007

You're not counting in everything.

MD + SCD + 32X is basically two MDs with Saturn's CPUs and a CD drive.

That's quite some power but of course I'm not deluding myself that anyone would be willing to explore all that potential (it's more than 14 different processors after all).

no , its not 2 Mega Drives, its 2 68000s, a Mega Drive VDP and the ASIC chip , not the same. , then what you have is just 2 extremely outdated CPUs , 2 decent CPUs and an ancient Mega Drive VDP (with the ASIC chip doing some rotation effects), the Saturn's VDP chips are what makes all the difference here, I don't care what programming tricks people can come up with , but heres a test, try a game on a PC with intergrated graphics, and dedicated graphics (a current one) , and see which runs faster ......yeah , I think having a decent graphics chip makes a huge difference, and its no different here , on the 32X , the SH2s do the grunt work , simply because the 68000 are not really suitable for too much if youre trying to push out alot of polygons.

Saturn did 3D via 2D sprite manipulation (i.e. "software rendering") too.

The ASIC chip could do similar to SNES and Saturn pseudo 3D effects so that could come in handy if they wanted to save up some resources for 3D graphics.

#-26 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

You're not counting in everything.

MD + SCD + 32X is basically two MDs with Saturn's CPUs and a CD drive.

That's quite some power but of course I'm not deluding myself that anyone would be willing to explore all that potential (it's more than 14 different processors after all).

nameless12345

no , its not 2 Mega Drives, its 2 68000s, a Mega Drive VDP and the ASIC chip , not the same. , then what you have is just 2 extremely outdated CPUs , 2 decent CPUs and an ancient Mega Drive VDP (with the ASIC chip doing some rotation effects), the Saturn's VDP chips are what makes all the difference here, I don't care what programming tricks people can come up with , but heres a test, try a game on a PC with intergrated graphics, and dedicated graphics (a current one) , and see which runs faster ......yeah , I think having a decent graphics chip makes a huge difference, and its no different here , on the 32X , the SH2s do the grunt work , simply because the 68000 are not really suitable for too much if youre trying to push out alot of polygons.

Saturn did 3D via 2D sprite manipulation (i.e. "software rendering") too.

The ASIC chip could do similar to SNES and Saturn pseudo 3D effects so that could come in handy if they wanted to save up some resources for 3D graphics.

doesn't matter, having a graphics chip thats more up to date, is better than having no graphics chip (and if we are talking about next gen things (which is was), the Mega Drive VDP was more or less worthless , save for a few minor things) the ASIC chip doesn't even look the Saturn's VDP2 in the eye, so the Saturn also has its own graphics chip dedicated to things like this, only its alot more capable and its capable of more things, which the ASIC chip could not. at the end of the day, there is no comparison , the Saturn is considerably more capable, its built to be a next gen system (crazy hardware aside) the 32XCD was not.
#-25 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] no , its not 2 Mega Drives, its 2 68000s, a Mega Drive VDP and the ASIC chip , not the same. , then what you have is just 2 extremely outdated CPUs , 2 decent CPUs and an ancient Mega Drive VDP (with the ASIC chip doing some rotation effects), the Saturn's VDP chips are what makes all the difference here, I don't care what programming tricks people can come up with , but heres a test, try a game on a PC with intergrated graphics, and dedicated graphics (a current one) , and see which runs faster ......yeah , I think having a decent graphics chip makes a huge difference, and its no different here , on the 32X , the SH2s do the grunt work , simply because the 68000 are not really suitable for too much if youre trying to push out alot of polygons.Darkman2007

Saturn did 3D via 2D sprite manipulation (i.e. "software rendering") too.

The ASIC chip could do similar to SNES and Saturn pseudo 3D effects so that could come in handy if they wanted to save up some resources for 3D graphics.

doesn't matter, having a graphics chip thats more up to date, is better than having no graphics chip (and if we are talking about next gen things (which is was), the Mega Drive VDP was more or less worthless , save for a few minor things) the ASIC chip doesn't even look the Saturn's VDP2 in the eye, so the Saturn also has its own graphics chip dedicated to things like this, only its alot more capable and its capable of more things, which the ASIC chip could not. at the end of the day, there is no comparison , the Saturn is considerably more capable, its built to be a next gen system (crazy hardware aside) the 32XCD was not.

I thought the SCD scaling effects looked pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80dODWdj9I

So basically they could use the SCD scaling on the floors and ceilings and 2D objects and combine that with textured 3D polygons that the 32X's dual CPUs would handle.

The two 68000s could help with 3D graphics too and they could make use of some pre-rendered FMV.

#-24 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Saturn did 3D via 2D sprite manipulation (i.e. "software rendering") too.

The ASIC chip could do similar to SNES and Saturn pseudo 3D effects so that could come in handy if they wanted to save up some resources for 3D graphics.

nameless12345

doesn't matter, having a graphics chip thats more up to date, is better than having no graphics chip (and if we are talking about next gen things (which is was), the Mega Drive VDP was more or less worthless , save for a few minor things) the ASIC chip doesn't even look the Saturn's VDP2 in the eye, so the Saturn also has its own graphics chip dedicated to things like this, only its alot more capable and its capable of more things, which the ASIC chip could not. at the end of the day, there is no comparison , the Saturn is considerably more capable, its built to be a next gen system (crazy hardware aside) the 32XCD was not.

I thought the SCD scaling effects looked pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80dODWdj9I

So basically they could use the SCD scaling on the floors and ceilings and 2D objects and combine that with textured 3D polygons that the 32X's dual CPUs would handle.

The two 68000s could help with 3D graphics too and they could make use of some pre-rendered FMV.

where exactly is any of this "close" to the Saturn , or shows the Saturn only has a "slight advantage" ? using your own words. the other thing youre forgetting of course is that the 32X games released already did similar things, ie, using the Mega Drive to help or draw part of the image , and those games sure don't look like Saturn games (especially nothing after late 95),. and no , the Mega CD would not help it much , those effects you presented are still not VDP2 material, not even close again , Im still waiting to be shown something which actually reaches Saturn level, or at least something thats not a launch game.
#-23 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] doesn't matter, having a graphics chip thats more up to date, is better than having no graphics chip (and if we are talking about next gen things (which is was), the Mega Drive VDP was more or less worthless , save for a few minor things) the ASIC chip doesn't even look the Saturn's VDP2 in the eye, so the Saturn also has its own graphics chip dedicated to things like this, only its alot more capable and its capable of more things, which the ASIC chip could not. at the end of the day, there is no comparison , the Saturn is considerably more capable, its built to be a next gen system (crazy hardware aside) the 32XCD was not.Darkman2007

I thought the SCD scaling effects looked pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80dODWdj9I

So basically they could use the SCD scaling on the floors and ceilings and 2D objects and combine that with textured 3D polygons that the 32X's dual CPUs would handle.

The two 68000s could help with 3D graphics too and they could make use of some pre-rendered FMV.

where exactly is any of this "close" to the Saturn , or shows the Saturn only has a "slight advantage" ? using your own words. the other thing youre forgetting of course is that the 32X games released already did similar things, ie, using the Mega Drive to help or draw part of the image , and those games sure don't look like Saturn games (especially nothing after late 95),. and no , the Mega CD would not help it much , those effects you presented are still not VDP2 material, not even close again , Im still waiting to be shown something which actually reaches Saturn level, or at least something thats not a launch game.

I'm not saying Saturn wasn't better, I'm just saying that it would be interesting to see what some good devs could do on the CD/32X combo.

#-22 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I thought the SCD scaling effects looked pretty good:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k80dODWdj9I

So basically they could use the SCD scaling on the floors and ceilings and 2D objects and combine that with textured 3D polygons that the 32X's dual CPUs would handle.

The two 68000s could help with 3D graphics too and they could make use of some pre-rendered FMV.

nameless12345

where exactly is any of this "close" to the Saturn , or shows the Saturn only has a "slight advantage" ? using your own words. the other thing youre forgetting of course is that the 32X games released already did similar things, ie, using the Mega Drive to help or draw part of the image , and those games sure don't look like Saturn games (especially nothing after late 95),. and no , the Mega CD would not help it much , those effects you presented are still not VDP2 material, not even close again , Im still waiting to be shown something which actually reaches Saturn level, or at least something thats not a launch game.

I'm not saying Saturn wasn't better, I'm just saying that it would be interesting to see what some good devs could do on the CD/32X combo.

no , you said close to in capability, and that Saturn would have only a slight advantage, and again thats simply not possible and btw, since you put up that video of what the ASIC chip in the MCD can do, here are 3 vids of what the VDP2 on the Saturn actually, does, although its more like a general effects video than just scaling(you also have to look out for the effects, sometimes its hard to see whats a polygon and whats not) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foln_F9ggk8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKU_Q2eWqU&feature=relmf uwww.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOUVgl8BKE&feature=relmfu frankly I can't see anything in the video you posted that gets anywhere near what Saturn does (and Im saying this from personal experience , not just from videos)
#-21 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] where exactly is any of this "close" to the Saturn , or shows the Saturn only has a "slight advantage" ? using your own words. the other thing youre forgetting of course is that the 32X games released already did similar things, ie, using the Mega Drive to help or draw part of the image , and those games sure don't look like Saturn games (especially nothing after late 95),. and no , the Mega CD would not help it much , those effects you presented are still not VDP2 material, not even close again , Im still waiting to be shown something which actually reaches Saturn level, or at least something thats not a launch game.Darkman2007

I'm not saying Saturn wasn't better, I'm just saying that it would be interesting to see what some good devs could do on the CD/32X combo.

no , you said close to in capability, and that Saturn would have only a slight advantage, and again thats simply not possible and btw, since you put up that video of what the ASIC chip in the MCD can do, here are 3 vids of what the VDP2 on the Saturn actually, does, although its more like a general effects video than just scaling(you also have to look out for the effects, sometimes its hard to see whats a polygon and whats not) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foln_F9ggk8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKU_Q2eWqU&feature=relmf uwww.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOUVgl8BKE&feature=relmfu frankly I can't see anything in the video you posted that gets anywhere near what Saturn does (and Im saying this from personal experience , not just from videos)

Why take everything I write so literally? ;)

But it's a fact that 32X uses the same CPU tech Saturn did and some of it's tech demos look pretty cool.

Of course the Saturn's still gonna be better due to VDPs, the geometry DSP and more RAM, but that's not to say they couldn't have made anything impressive on the CD32X combo.

#-20 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I'm not saying Saturn wasn't better, I'm just saying that it would be interesting to see what some good devs could do on the CD/32X combo.

nameless12345

no , you said close to in capability, and that Saturn would have only a slight advantage, and again thats simply not possible and btw, since you put up that video of what the ASIC chip in the MCD can do, here are 3 vids of what the VDP2 on the Saturn actually, does, although its more like a general effects video than just scaling(you also have to look out for the effects, sometimes its hard to see whats a polygon and whats not) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foln_F9ggk8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKU_Q2eWqU&feature=relmf uwww.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOUVgl8BKE&feature=relmfu frankly I can't see anything in the video you posted that gets anywhere near what Saturn does (and Im saying this from personal experience , not just from videos)

Why take everything I write so literally? ;)

But it's a fact that 32X uses the same CPU tech Saturn did and some of it's tech demos look pretty cool.

Of course the Saturn's still gonna be better due to VDPs, the geometry DSP and more RAM, but that's not to say they couldn't have made anything impressive on the CD32X combo.

because there really is only one way to interpret it, close and slight are pretty clear terms. same CPU doesn't mean alot, the Commodore 64 has basically the same CPU as the Atari 2600, and it was also used in the Atari 8 bit line (infact, the Rioch chip in the NES is a clone of the 6507 used in the 2600, just faster), doesn't mean its the same or even close, because of everything else. as for tech demos, tech demos are tech demos, they don't have any gameplay (especially not the one I know youve seen , ie, the one made by Zyrinx), no logic, no AI , nothing, its pretty obvious its going to look good.. there is a difference between something cool and actually being capable.
#-19 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] no , you said close to in capability, and that Saturn would have only a slight advantage, and again thats simply not possible and btw, since you put up that video of what the ASIC chip in the MCD can do, here are 3 vids of what the VDP2 on the Saturn actually, does, although its more like a general effects video than just scaling(you also have to look out for the effects, sometimes its hard to see whats a polygon and whats not) www.youtube.com/watch?v=Foln_F9ggk8 www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaKU_Q2eWqU&feature=relmf uwww.youtube.com/watch?v=2rOUVgl8BKE&feature=relmfu frankly I can't see anything in the video you posted that gets anywhere near what Saturn does (and Im saying this from personal experience , not just from videos)Darkman2007

Why take everything I write so literally? ;)

But it's a fact that 32X uses the same CPU tech Saturn did and some of it's tech demos look pretty cool.

Of course the Saturn's still gonna be better due to VDPs, the geometry DSP and more RAM, but that's not to say they couldn't have made anything impressive on the CD32X combo.

because there really is only one way to interpret it, close and slight are pretty clear terms. same CPU doesn't mean alot, the Commodore 64 has basically the same CPU as the Atari 2600, and it was also used in the Atari 8 bit line (infact, the Rioch chip in the NES is a clone of the 6507 used in the 2600, just faster), doesn't mean its the same or even close, because of everything else. as for tech demos, tech demos are tech demos, they don't have any gameplay (especially not the one I know youve seen , ie, the one made by Zyrinx), no logic, no AI , nothing, its pretty obvious its going to look good.. there is a difference between something cool and actually being capable.

So you think the difference between CD32X and Saturn was bigger than, say, SNES and N64?

I think the jump from 32X to Saturn was not that huge personally.

And if you add the CD in there and give the devs more time/resource to work on 32X/CD games, the outcome could be even closer.

#-18 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Why take everything I write so literally? ;)

But it's a fact that 32X uses the same CPU tech Saturn did and some of it's tech demos look pretty cool.

Of course the Saturn's still gonna be better due to VDPs, the geometry DSP and more RAM, but that's not to say they couldn't have made anything impressive on the CD32X combo.

nameless12345

because there really is only one way to interpret it, close and slight are pretty clear terms. same CPU doesn't mean alot, the Commodore 64 has basically the same CPU as the Atari 2600, and it was also used in the Atari 8 bit line (infact, the Rioch chip in the NES is a clone of the 6507 used in the 2600, just faster), doesn't mean its the same or even close, because of everything else. as for tech demos, tech demos are tech demos, they don't have any gameplay (especially not the one I know youve seen , ie, the one made by Zyrinx), no logic, no AI , nothing, its pretty obvious its going to look good.. there is a difference between something cool and actually being capable.

So you think the difference between CD32X and Saturn was smaller than, say, SNES and N64?

I think the jump from 32X to Saturn was not that huge personally.

And if you add the CD in there and give the devs more time/resource to work on 32X/CD games, the outcome could be even closer.

between SNES and N64? of course the jump was smaller , but then , nobody is claiming the jump from the SNES to the N64 was slight . then you haven't seen very many Saturn games, or youre blind, either or, its frankly ludicrous to claim that , with or without the CD. again , where is the evidence for your claim?
#-17 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] because there really is only one way to interpret it, close and slight are pretty clear terms. same CPU doesn't mean alot, the Commodore 64 has basically the same CPU as the Atari 2600, and it was also used in the Atari 8 bit line (infact, the Rioch chip in the NES is a clone of the 6507 used in the 2600, just faster), doesn't mean its the same or even close, because of everything else. as for tech demos, tech demos are tech demos, they don't have any gameplay (especially not the one I know youve seen , ie, the one made by Zyrinx), no logic, no AI , nothing, its pretty obvious its going to look good.. there is a difference between something cool and actually being capable.Darkman2007

So you think the difference between CD32X and Saturn was smaller than, say, SNES and N64?

I think the jump from 32X to Saturn was not that huge personally.

And if you add the CD in there and give the devs more time/resource to work on 32X/CD games, the outcome could be even closer.

between SNES and N64? of course the jump was smaller , but then , nobody is claiming the jump from the SNES to the N64 was slight . then you haven't seen very many Saturn games, or youre blind, either or, its frankly ludicrous to claim that , with or without the CD. again , where is the evidence for your claim?

I ment "bigger".

I edited my post.

#-16 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

So you think the difference between CD32X and Saturn was smaller than, say, SNES and N64?

I think the jump from 32X to Saturn was not that huge personally.

And if you add the CD in there and give the devs more time/resource to work on 32X/CD games, the outcome could be even closer.

nameless12345

between SNES and N64? of course the jump was smaller , but then , nobody is claiming the jump from the SNES to the N64 was slight . then you haven't seen very many Saturn games, or youre blind, either or, its frankly ludicrous to claim that , with or without the CD. again , where is the evidence for your claim?

I ment "bigger".

I edited my post.

well as I said, the jump from the SNES to the N64 was obviously a bigger jump , but that doesn't mean the jump between the 32X and the Saturn was somehow insignificant hell , look at the difference between stellar assault on the 32X , and stellar assault SS on the Saturn , granted , they are nearly 3 years apart, but its pretty obvious what difference there is. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sug5jUR6f8I (sadly the video is pretty poor quality) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UWjwo_L270I&feature=related one looks like a 5th gen game, the other looks like a SuperFX2 game on steroids , and thats just one example.
#-15 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

the other example being Virtua Fighter 1 on the 32X, which came out at the same time as VF2 on the Saturn, I don't even need to say the differences there.

#-14 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

the other example being Virtua Fighter 1 on the 32X, which came out at the same time as VF2 on the Saturn, I don't even need to say the differences there.

Darkman2007

A more interesting comparison would be Virtua Fighter 1, Virtua Racing, Doom, Space Harrier and After Burner II as those games looked quite on par with their Saturn counterparts (if not quite).

Speaking of Super FX - would be interesing to see what the SNES CD could do too.

#-13 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

the other example being Virtua Fighter 1 on the 32X, which came out at the same time as VF2 on the Saturn, I don't even need to say the differences there.

nameless12345

A more interesting comparison would be Virtua Fighter 1, Virtua Racing, Doom, Space Harrier and After Burner II as those games looked quite on par with their Saturn counterparts (if not quite).

Speaking of Super FX - would be interesing to see what the SNES CD could do too.

all nonsense, the first 3 are notoriously bad ports on the Saturn (still look better ironically) , the latter 2 are arcade games from the 80s , the 32X versions (especially VF1 and Virtua Racing) were actually decent efforts, hell , Virtua Racing on the Saturn wasn't even made by Sega, but by Time Warner. not very smart I have to say, I expected better from you :P that depends on what the SNES CD had in it, if it was just a straight CD drive and nothing more, you would have seen Similar things to the Mega CD, just with more colours.
#-12 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

the other example being Virtua Fighter 1 on the 32X, which came out at the same time as VF2 on the Saturn, I don't even need to say the differences there.

Darkman2007

A more interesting comparison would be Virtua Fighter 1, Virtua Racing, Doom, Space Harrier and After Burner II as those games looked quite on par with their Saturn counterparts (if not quite).

Speaking of Super FX - would be interesing to see what the SNES CD could do too.

all nonsense, the first 3 are notoriously bad ports on the Saturn (still look better ironically) , the latter 2 are arcade games from the 80s , the 32X versions (especially VF1 and Virtua Racing) were actually decent efforts, hell , Virtua Racing on the Saturn wasn't even made by Sega, but by Time Warner. not very smart I have to say, I expected better from you :P that depends on what the SNES CD had in it, if it was just a straight CD drive and nothing more, you would have seen Similar things to the Mega CD, just with more colours.

I don't think they are terribly good 32X ports either.

I think VF could look/run better on the 32X and Doom could sound better (instead of the "fart" soundtrack).

SNES CD was rumoured to sport the SFX GSU2, i.e. the same chip that was used in Doom and Yoshi's Island (for some scaling effects and game logic).

#-11 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

A more interesting comparison would be Virtua Fighter 1, Virtua Racing, Doom, Space Harrier and After Burner II as those games looked quite on par with their Saturn counterparts (if not quite).

Speaking of Super FX - would be interesing to see what the SNES CD could do too.

nameless12345

all nonsense, the first 3 are notoriously bad ports on the Saturn (still look better ironically) , the latter 2 are arcade games from the 80s , the 32X versions (especially VF1 and Virtua Racing) were actually decent efforts, hell , Virtua Racing on the Saturn wasn't even made by Sega, but by Time Warner. not very smart I have to say, I expected better from you :P that depends on what the SNES CD had in it, if it was just a straight CD drive and nothing more, you would have seen Similar things to the Mega CD, just with more colours.

I don't think they are terribly good 32X ports either.

I think VF could look/run better on the 32X and Doom could sound better (instead of the "fart" soundtrack).

SNES CD was rumoured to sport the SFX GSU2, i.e. the same chip that was used in Doom and Yoshi's Island (for some scaling effects and game logic).

there are 2 problems with what you said 1), not really, if they wanted to keep a decent frame rate (though I agree about the Doom soundtrack , that could have been better) 2) even if you got it to look better and more like the arcade, the game still looks like crap in comparison to the vast majority of Saturn 3D games, so there goes that theory down the toilet. anymore games youre going to throw at me ? :P this is somewhat comical actually.
#-10 Posted by bultje112 (1867 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

the other example being Virtua Fighter 1 on the 32X, which came out at the same time as VF2 on the Saturn, I don't even need to say the differences there.

nameless12345

A more interesting comparison would be Virtua Fighter 1, Virtua Racing, Doom, Space Harrier and After Burner II as those games looked quite on par with their Saturn counterparts (if not quite).

Speaking of Super FX - would be interesing to see what the SNES CD could do too.

ahahah. man you are still trying to defend 32x was anywhere near equal of saturn? how hard is it to admitt you are just wrong sometimes? :roll:

#-9 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] all nonsense, the first 3 are notoriously bad ports on the Saturn (still look better ironically) , the latter 2 are arcade games from the 80s , the 32X versions (especially VF1 and Virtua Racing) were actually decent efforts, hell , Virtua Racing on the Saturn wasn't even made by Sega, but by Time Warner. not very smart I have to say, I expected better from you :P that depends on what the SNES CD had in it, if it was just a straight CD drive and nothing more, you would have seen Similar things to the Mega CD, just with more colours.Darkman2007

I don't think they are terribly good 32X ports either.

I think VF could look/run better on the 32X and Doom could sound better (instead of the "fart" soundtrack).

SNES CD was rumoured to sport the SFX GSU2, i.e. the same chip that was used in Doom and Yoshi's Island (for some scaling effects and game logic).

there are 2 problems with what you said 1), not really, if they wanted to keep a decent frame rate (though I agree about the Doom soundtrack , that could have been better) 2) even if you got it to look better and more like the arcade, the game still looks like crap in comparison to the vast majority of Saturn 3D games, so there goes that theory down the toilet. anymore games youre going to throw at me ? :P this is somewhat comical actually.

Yes.

Behold Darxide, Saturn-beating 3D on the 32X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPUCICkqd1U

j/k :P

#-8 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I don't think they are terribly good 32X ports either.

I think VF could look/run better on the 32X and Doom could sound better (instead of the "fart" soundtrack).

SNES CD was rumoured to sport the SFX GSU2, i.e. the same chip that was used in Doom and Yoshi's Island (for some scaling effects and game logic).

nameless12345

there are 2 problems with what you said 1), not really, if they wanted to keep a decent frame rate (though I agree about the Doom soundtrack , that could have been better) 2) even if you got it to look better and more like the arcade, the game still looks like crap in comparison to the vast majority of Saturn 3D games, so there goes that theory down the toilet. anymore games youre going to throw at me ? :P this is somewhat comical actually.

Yes.

Behold Darxide, Saturn-beating 3D on the 32X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPUCICkqd1U

j/k :P

I know youre joking, but that game is still not Saturn quality tbh. that said , it is good looking,there is no denying that, had the main competitor for the 32X been the 3DO or Jaguar, it would have been closer (even if those are still better in alot of ways) , but compared to the later consoles, it falls apart.
#-7 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I don't think they are terribly good 32X ports either.

I think VF could look/run better on the 32X and Doom could sound better (instead of the "fart" soundtrack).

SNES CD was rumoured to sport the SFX GSU2, i.e. the same chip that was used in Doom and Yoshi's Island (for some scaling effects and game logic).

nameless12345

there are 2 problems with what you said 1), not really, if they wanted to keep a decent frame rate (though I agree about the Doom soundtrack , that could have been better) 2) even if you got it to look better and more like the arcade, the game still looks like crap in comparison to the vast majority of Saturn 3D games, so there goes that theory down the toilet. anymore games youre going to throw at me ? :P this is somewhat comical actually.

Yes.

Behold Darxide, Saturn-beating 3D on the 32X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPUCICkqd1U

j/k :P

That's actually pretty impressive for 32X. It looks like an early-release PS1 game.

#-6 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] there are 2 problems with what you said 1), not really, if they wanted to keep a decent frame rate (though I agree about the Doom soundtrack , that could have been better) 2) even if you got it to look better and more like the arcade, the game still looks like crap in comparison to the vast majority of Saturn 3D games, so there goes that theory down the toilet. anymore games youre going to throw at me ? :P this is somewhat comical actually.Emerald_Warrior

Yes.

Behold Darxide, Saturn-beating 3D on the 32X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPUCICkqd1U

j/k :P

That's actually pretty impressive for 32X. It looks like an early-release PS1 game.

not sure about you, but I can't see how his game looks as good as something like Ridge Racer or Wipeout. then again , MK3 came out at the same time on the PS1, so not every game looked like that I guess.
#-5 Posted by caryslan2 (2121 posts) -

These are some of the reasons why the Saturn never really took off in the US.

  • The Sega CD and 32X really hurt consumer confidence and made people weary about buying another Sega System.
  • The Saturn broke it's launch date in September 1995 and launched early in May in an attempt to beat Sony to the market. The problem with their strategy is the fact that many third-parties did not have their games ready for the Saturn's launch and certain retailers were left out. This ended up causing Sega many problems in the end.
  • Because of Sega's inability to include certain retailers in the Saturn's launch, several chains such as Wal-mart and Kay-Bee Toys became angry at Sega. In the case of Kay-Bee Toys, they went as far as removing anything Sega related from their stores. This caused Nintendo and Sony to get more store space at Sega's expense.
  • Key launch titles such as Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA were rushed to the market resulting is poor-quality ports that failed to show off the Saturn's power when compared to the Playstation.
  • After joining Sega, Bernie Stolar would create several rules regarding what games made it to Saturn in the west. Amoung those rules were banning most RPGs and 2D games from coming to the US. Both of those genres were the Saturn's greatest strengths and were responsible for making the system a success in Japan.
  • The Saturn's hardware was difficult to work with and the Saturn used quadrilaterals as its basic geometric primitive. The Playstation and Nintendo 64 used triangles which was the industry standard.
  • There was never a proper Sonic game for the Saturn. Sonic was a proven system seller, and yet Sega never tried to put their full effort into making a Sonic game on the Saturn. STI, an American Development Team that worked on Sonic 2 and Sonic Spinball attempted to make a game called Sonic X-treme. Politics and issues with development prevented the game from ever being finished. As a result, the Saturn never got the one title that might have helped it.
  • Sega of Japan frequently interfered with Sega of Amercia's business in the region, often canceling games that were aimed at Western markets. A major example of this was an Eternal Champions sequel that was planned for the Saturn. Despite Eternal Champion's popularity in the west, SOJ killed the project because they wanted to focus on the Virtua Fighter Series and have only one fighting game series on the Saturn to prevent confusion with consumers. On a related note, this also caused a downturn in support for the Sega Genesis in the west.

There are several more things that hurt the Saturn in the US, but there are the main ones. For those intrested, it should be noted that the Saturn was fairly popular and successful in Japan. It was in the west that the system struggled.

Which is a pity, since the system had excellent potential.

#-4 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

[QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Yes.

Behold Darxide, Saturn-beating 3D on the 32X:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPUCICkqd1U

j/k :P

Darkman2007

That's actually pretty impressive for 32X. It looks like an early-release PS1 game.

not sure about you, but I can't see how his game looks as good as something like Ridge Racer or Wipeout. then again , MK3 came out at the same time on the PS1, so not every game looked like that I guess.

There were also games like King's Field, Twisted Metal, and Time Commando which weren't nearly as good looking as Ridge Racer.

I remember most 32X 3D games looking pretty bland with a lot of the textures being nothing more than solid colors, and the polygons looking very simplistic in shape and form. There was some decent looking textures on some solid looking polygons in that Darxide video (by 32X standards).

#-3 Posted by jsmoke03 (12993 posts) -

price and playstation happened

#-2 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

That's actually pretty impressive for 32X. It looks like an early-release PS1 game.

Emerald_Warrior

not sure about you, but I can't see how his game looks as good as something like Ridge Racer or Wipeout. then again , MK3 came out at the same time on the PS1, so not every game looked like that I guess.

There were also games like King's Field, Twisted Metal, and Time Commando which weren't nearly as good looking as Ridge Racer.

I remember most 32X 3D games looking pretty bland with a lot of the textures being nothing more than solid colors, and the polygons looking very simplistic in shape and form. There was some decent looking textures on some solid looking polygons in that Darxide video (by 32X standards).

of course , but thats probably it, if Darxide is really pushing the 32X , what was its future?
#-1 Posted by jsmoke03 (12993 posts) -

These are some of the reasons why the Saturn never really took off in the US.

  • The Sega CD and 32X really hurt consumer confidence and made people weary about buying another Sega System.
  • The Saturn broke it's launch date in September 1995 and launched early in May in an attempt to beat Sony to the market. The problem with their strategy is the fact that many third-parties did not have their games ready for the Saturn's launch and certain retailers were left out. This ended up causing Sega many problems in the end.
  • Because of Sega's inability to include certain retailers in the Saturn's launch, several chains such as Wal-mart and Kay-Bee Toys became angry at Sega. In the case of Kay-Bee Toys, they went as far as removing anything Sega related from their stores. This caused Nintendo and Sony to get more store space at Sega's expense.
  • Key launch titles such as Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA were rushed to the market resulting is poor-quality ports that failed to show off the Saturn's power when compared to the Playstation.
  • After joining Sega, Bernie Stolar would create several rules regarding what games made it to Saturn in the west. Amoung those rules were banning most RPGs and 2D games from coming to the US. Both of those genres were the Saturn's greatest strengths and were responsible for making the system a success in Japan.
  • The Saturn's hardware was difficult to work with and the Saturn used quadrilaterals as its basic geometric primitive. The Playstation and Nintendo 64 used triangles which was the industry standard.
  • There was never a proper Sonic game for the Saturn. Sonic was a proven system seller, and yet Sega never tried to put their full effort into making a Sonic game on the Saturn. STI, an American Development Team that worked on Sonic 2 and Sonic Spinball attempted to make a game called Sonic X-treme. Politics and issues with development prevented the game from ever being finished. As a result, the Saturn never got the one title that might have helped it.
  • Sega of Japan frequently interfered with Sega of Amercia's business in the region, often canceling games that were aimed at Western markets. A major example of this was an Eternal Champions sequel that was planned for the Saturn. Despite Eternal Champion's popularity in the west, SOJ killed the project because they wanted to focus on the Virtua Fighter Series and have only one fighting game series on the Saturn to prevent confusion with consumers. On a related note, this also caused a downturn in support for the Sega Genesis in the west.

There are several more things that hurt the Saturn in the US, but there are the main ones. For those intrested, it should be noted that the Saturn was fairly popular and successful in Japan. It was in the west that the system struggled.

Which is a pity, since the system had excellent potential.

caryslan2
i think it was more down to price, marketing, and playstation....
#0 Posted by caryslan2 (2121 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Why take everything I write so literally? ;)

But it's a fact that 32X uses the same CPU tech Saturn did and some of it's tech demos look pretty cool.

Of course the Saturn's still gonna be better due to VDPs, the geometry DSP and more RAM, but that's not to say they couldn't have made anything impressive on the CD32X combo.

nameless12345

because there really is only one way to interpret it, close and slight are pretty clear terms. same CPU doesn't mean alot, the Commodore 64 has basically the same CPU as the Atari 2600, and it was also used in the Atari 8 bit line (infact, the Rioch chip in the NES is a clone of the 6507 used in the 2600, just faster), doesn't mean its the same or even close, because of everything else. as for tech demos, tech demos are tech demos, they don't have any gameplay (especially not the one I know youve seen , ie, the one made by Zyrinx), no logic, no AI , nothing, its pretty obvious its going to look good.. there is a difference between something cool and actually being capable.

So you think the difference between CD32X and Saturn was bigger than, say, SNES and N64?

I think the jump from 32X to Saturn was not that huge personally.

And if you add the CD in there and give the devs more time/resource to work on 32X/CD games, the outcome could be even closer.

Many later Saturn games look much better then anything on the 32X and are pretty comparable to PS1 games at the time. Hell, Virtua Fighter 2 looks much better then anything on the 32X and is pretty comparable to Tekken 1 on the PS1 in terms of graphics quality. And this keeping in mind the fact that VF2 was a port of a game that ran much more powerful hardware in the arcades.

Part of the problem was the poor-looking ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA that launched with the system. Because of their rushed nature, they failed to take advantage of the Saturn's hardware and in the case of Virtua Fighter somehow managed to look worse then the 32X version. But if you want a direct comparison, look at Virtua Fighter Remix vs Virtua Fighter 32X. That is a game that plays to the Saturn's power and as a result looks much better.

One other thing to keep in mind is the fact that the 32X often suffered from some of the base limitations of the Genesis. These were the same issues that hurt the Sega CD.

To be honest, the Saturn was a pretty powerful system for its time and was comparable to the Playstation. The problem was the hardware itself, which was difficult to work with. But when a developer did manage to make a game that played to the Saturn's hardware, it was shown that it was a pretty capable and powerful system. Plus, it did do 2-D games much better then the Playstation. The best port's of Capcom's 2-D fighters of that era were on the Saturn.