Video Game Logic

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#51 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Realism is what they did with TLOU's aiming. In addition to using a PS3 controller the devs decided to screw with my aiming just because Joel is a p#ssy. I worked hard to become a decent shot and I don't appreciated devs f#cking with that to make the game seem more realistic. Its not my fault Joel can't shoot for sh!t.

And thats one of the many reasons why I hate realism.

No, weapon swaying is not realism, quite the opposite. If you've ever aimed a gun you know your aim does not sway like that and that the lack of accuracy is due to recoil rather than breathing and heartbeat. For someone's aim to sway like at the beginning of TLoU, they'd have to be drunk, high, or have serious neurological damage.

Also not realistic is becoming more accurate by swallowing purple flowers.

In short, what frustrated you so much is not the realism, but rather the lack of realism, which is a byproduct of the artificial character progression mechanics implemented in many games today.

#52 Posted by Netret0120 (2000 posts) -

It is a video GAME. I live in real life 24/7. Don't need more of that in my games

#54 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

I disagree, I think Naught Dog did what they thought was "realistic".

#55 Posted by SirWander (5176 posts) -

But the game mechanics and systems implemented in The Last of Us are anything but "realistic." It's pretty clear that realism is not what they were aiming for, it's a heightened sense of desperation in harsh environs. As to the weapon sway in the game; it's meant to give more challenge in killing enemies in the game. If Naughty Dog were trying to make it seem realistic, they would have forgone the leveling system. Joel has survived in the post-apocalypse for twenty years, someone with that much experience would not have as much trouble aiming as the gameplay implies. Also, eating supplements won't improve your aim, as Black Knight stated, it is not realistic at all; it's a game mechanic meant to give players a choice in how the character progresses.

#56 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ SirWander

I doubt Naughty Dog knows the difference. What is realistic and they think is realistic. Ofcourse Theres no way to prove this. Anybody got any dirt on Neil Druckman so we can get him to tell the truth, LA Noire ?

#57 Posted by SirWander (5176 posts) -

It truly is unfounded speculation on your part.

#58 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ SirWander

Indeed it is. This is very uncharted territory for me.

#59 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

One more example of lack of realism: I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows you can tape a plastic bottle to a revolver (or any gun with a low-diameter muzzle) and create a makeshift sound suppressor. Why is this not in survival horror games? Because 1) it looks like ass and 2) it defeats the purpose of any stealth mechanic you have implemented in the game.

Realism is being sacrificed more often than not on the altar of game design.

#60 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

And it should be sacrificed more often.

#61 Posted by Jacanuk (3901 posts) -

One more example of lack of realism: I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows you can tape a plastic bottle to a revolver (or any gun with a low-diameter muzzle) and create a makeshift sound suppressor. Why is this not in survival horror games? Because 1) it looks like ass and 2) it defeats the purpose of any stealth mechanic you have implemented in the game.

Realism is being sacrificed more often than not on the altar of game design.

It is in games, just not all

Can't remember which one it was but one of the AAA titles lately had you do exactly that.

#62 Posted by Ish_basic (3977 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

I disagree, I think Naught Dog did what they thought was "realistic".

Until someone who has fired a gun at someone else who was trying to kill him/her posts on this topic, I'm just gonna assume that ND was trying to simulate the effects of adrenaline, etc. Those elements that would affect aim that players would not actually feel because they are in no danger. But also, we are locked into Joel, subject to the limitations of his body...that counts for something. In a lot of ways, accuracy is so much simpler in gaming that one would expect developers to contrive false mechanics (reticule bloom says, "hi") where they cannot implement real mechanics in an effort to create a realistic result. The philosophical heading we're looking for here is instrumentalism. Whether or not they achieve their aim of realism in the end is debatable, but I can't fault the attempt - games that are point and shoot just feel like something is missing.

#63 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ Ish_basic

Joel can't take cover properly, cant jump, doesn't know how to wield Katana, all I ask is they not tamper with the one feature that allows me to save bullets by using headshots, they already got retard infected whos heads move about like crack addicted chimps. Joel is is nothing but a means to an end to me, I don't care what his limits are, my aim is decent and the game should reflect that. Oh yeah thats another reason I don't like RPGs. Can't effectively wield your Avatar, don't have reason's though.

#64 Edited by touchscreenpad (220 posts) -

Some little things I just let go or accept, accepting that it is a game after all. Like the inventory system, aiming system...the loot system, sure a little bit.

#65 Edited by Simjang (9 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: HR has a good storyline, but the controls are really fucked up...

#66 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (9943 posts) -

@ Simjang

Heavy Rain or Human Revolution ?

#67 Edited by VintAge68 (398 posts) -

One more example of lack of realism: I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows you can tape a plastic bottle to a revolver (or any gun with a low-diameter muzzle) and create a makeshift sound suppressor. Why is this not in survival horror games? Because 1) it looks like ass and 2) it defeats the purpose of any stealth mechanic you have implemented in the game.

Realism is being sacrificed more often than not on the altar of game design.

Dead Island (Riptide) does provide a lot of those homemade weapon upgrades. If it is realistic is yet another question (you know zombies in real life?)...

#68 Posted by VintAge68 (398 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu @SoNin360 :

So I'm playing The Last Of Us right, and I'm running alil low on ammo so I decided to stealth the next encounter, I rolled up behind a dude with a pistol and strangled him, easy peasy, and then I had the strangest thought: "Wheres his ammo ?" I know if he spotted me he wouldve opened fire........ Forever , because these bastards don't run out of bullets and yet he doesn't drop any when he falls ?

This isn't a jab at TLOU, I guess I was just having one of those moments where I realised how dumb video games are some times, just like those times in stealth games where a guard walks right over the bloody corpse of his comrade and thinks to him self: "Did I turn off the stove ?" Or in an RPG: "Where the hell does she carry all that loot ?"

Sometimes it just gets to me

You know what, I change my mind, this is totally a jab at The Last Of Us, why don't these f#ckers make believable drops ? It really is beginning to piss me off.

I agree that realism and logics is not the same here: no video game is really realistic, but a game's logics still can be consistent as regards story or gameplay. Which is the case with TLOU, I'd say: it might not seem realistic that some foe does not drop the ammo or weapon he has just be using against me, but it still seems logic with respect to the fact that TLOU developers did want to keep one short on supplies for it being a survival game.

#69 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

@Black_Knight_00 said:

One more example of lack of realism: I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows you can tape a plastic bottle to a revolver (or any gun with a low-diameter muzzle) and create a makeshift sound suppressor. Why is this not in survival horror games? Because 1) it looks like ass and 2) it defeats the purpose of any stealth mechanic you have implemented in the game.

Realism is being sacrificed more often than not on the altar of game design.

Dead Island (Riptide) does provide a lot of those homemade weapon upgrades. If it is realistic is yet another question (you know zombies in real life?)...

That's actually a good example, and the fact that the enemies are zombies is irrelevant. The idea is: I am in a dangerous situation and I need a melee weapon to defend myself, in real life I am able to tape a kitchen knife to a broomstick, or use the aforementioned bottle to decrese my sound signature when shooting. Does the game limit me in those regards or does it allow me to manage my resources in the same way as I would in real life?

Alone in the Dark (2008), though a terrible game, allowed you to tape any two objects together, sometimes resulting in useful items, other times allowing you to create completely useless ones.

#70 Edited by VintAge68 (398 posts) -

@Black_Knight_00 said:

@VintAge68 said:

@Black_Knight_00 said:

One more example of lack of realism: I think anyone who knows anything about guns knows you can tape a plastic bottle to a revolver (or any gun with a low-diameter muzzle) and create a makeshift sound suppressor. Why is this not in survival horror games? Because 1) it looks like ass and 2) it defeats the purpose of any stealth mechanic you have implemented in the game.

Realism is being sacrificed more often than not on the altar of game design.

Dead Island (Riptide) does provide a lot of those homemade weapon upgrades. If it is realistic is yet another question (you know zombies in real life?)...

That's actually a good example, and the fact that the enemies are zombies is irrelevant. The idea is: I am in a dangerous situation and I need a melee weapon to defend myself, in real life I am able to tape a kitchen knife to a broomstick, or use the aforementioned bottle to decrese my sound signature when shooting. Does the game limit me in those regards or does it allow me to manage my resources in the same way as I would in real life?

Alone in the Dark (2008), though a terrible game, allowed you to tape any two objects together, sometimes resulting in useful items, other times allowing you to create completely useless ones.

Well, whether the game limits you or lets you manage your resources yourself, in any case it is the developers that decide so...

I mentioned DI:R for providing a lot of less conventional weapons and items, but also Dead Space 3 (in particular the Survival mode) and to some extent, Metro 2033, are Survival Horror games that permit to craft/upgrade weapons and manage resources oneself; but both are also similar to TLOU in a certain way.

Did you ever try Tokyo Jungle? It imparts even a somewhat arcadish approach to post-apocalyptic survival...

#71 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

Did you ever try Tokyo Jungle? It imparts even a somewhat arcadish approach to post-apocalyptic survival...

Yes, and regrettably I hate it. Not because of the game itself, but on account of the very strict time limit. If the game let me pick an animal and run around with a certain degree of freedom I would be pleased, intead they force you to get food every 3 minutes and reproduce every 10 or it's game over. Too bad.

#72 Posted by VintAge68 (398 posts) -

Yes, I get this (the Japanese just like challenge ;), but nevertheless TJ has an interesting "Darwinist" approach which I see reflected also in the TLOU multiplayer, btw.

#73 Posted by Gelugon_baat (19375 posts) -

I am tempted to write something amusing about some other game here, but I noticed that you are referring to The Last of Us in your opening post, Lulu_Lulu.

Have you considered that other people might not have The Last of Us in mind when they saw the thread title, Lulu_Lulu?

#74 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

Yes, I get this (the Japanese just like challenge ;), but nevertheless TJ has an interesting "Darwinist" approach which I see reflected also in the TLOU multiplayer, btw.

Yes, the concept was clever and original, it's just the game they built around it does everything it can to put me off. Starting with the music: maybe I'm weird but when I think about a poodle sneaking through the tall grass to eat a monkey, the first thing that comes to mind is *not* extremely loud and looping techno music.

#75 Posted by VintAge68 (398 posts) -

@VintAge68 said:

Yes, I get this (the Japanese just like challenge ;), but nevertheless TJ has an interesting "Darwinist" approach which I see reflected also in the TLOU multiplayer, btw.

Yes, the concept was clever and original, it's just the game they built around it does everything it can to put me off. Starting with the music: maybe I'm weird but when I think about a poodle sneaking through the tall grass to eat a monkey, the first thing that comes to mind is *not* extremely loud and looping techno music.

I like techno... What music would you have considered fitting for the poodle-monkey scene? Reggea perhaps?

#76 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18197 posts) -

@Black_Knight_00 said:

@VintAge68 said:

Yes, I get this (the Japanese just like challenge ;), but nevertheless TJ has an interesting "Darwinist" approach which I see reflected also in the TLOU multiplayer, btw.

Yes, the concept was clever and original, it's just the game they built around it does everything it can to put me off. Starting with the music: maybe I'm weird but when I think about a poodle sneaking through the tall grass to eat a monkey, the first thing that comes to mind is *not* extremely loud and looping techno music.

I like techno... What music would you have considered fitting for the poodle-monkey scene? Reggea perhaps?

Something which evokes the idea of sneaking up on someone. Something like this.

#77 Edited by King9999 (11835 posts) -

In most RPGs, I always hated how you stun/freeze the enemy, take a swing at them, and somehow, you miss them. There are times where RNG shouldn't apply, you know?

By the way, if you want to play a game that's too realistic, play the first Shenmue.