Video Game Logic

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#1 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

So I'm playing The Last Of Us right, and I'm running alil low on ammo so I decided to stealth the next encounter, I rolled up behind a dude with a pistol and strangled him, easy peasy, and then I had the strangest thought: "Wheres his ammo ?" I know if he spotted me he wouldve opened fire........ Forever , because these bastards don't run out of bullets and yet he doesn't drop any when he falls ?

This isn't a jab at TLOU, I guess I was just having one of those moments where I realised how dumb video games are some times, just like those times in stealth games where a guard walks right over the bloody corpse of his comrade and thinks to him self: "Did I turn off the stove ?" Or in an RPG: "Where the hell does she carry all that loot ?"

Sometimes it just gets to me

You know what, I change my mind, this is totally a jab at The Last Of Us, why don't these f#ckers make believable drops ? It really is beginning to piss me off.

#2 Edited by LoG-Sacrament (20387 posts) -

i love how linear games with objective arrows tell you exactly where their "secret" areas are. if you know which direction to travel in order to progress and another path exists, video game logic tells you that the other path is a dead end with treasure in it. this can also make the prospect of a dead end more exciting than the main path.

#3 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16378 posts) -

If video games were realistic they wouldn't be any fun at all. Real life is boring.

#4 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ turtlethetaffer

I didn't say anything about realism. I just want better logic. You know How unrealistic Portal 2 is ? yet its very logical.

Even real life can get illogical at times. I want more Logic ! :(

#5 Posted by voljin1987 (675 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu u missed out the part where in a jrpg, the skimpier the outfit is, the more armor it provides

#6 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ voljin1987

Believe me, I didn't leave that out by accident. :D

#7 Edited by contracts420 (1956 posts) -

You know what, I change my mind, this is totally a jab at The Last Of Us, why don't these f#ckers make believable drops ? It really is beginning to piss me off.

If they made believable drops the player would either...

A) Have an over-abundance of ammo

B) Fewer enemies with weapons to fight

C) Enemies with weapons who would rarely use a bullet out of fear that they would run out

All of these would be a detrimental to gameplay. Enemies with fear of using ammunition would remove any danger or strategy to the gameplay. Or weapons damage could be increased but possible cheap deaths and forced stealth would ensue. It may annoy some but it was the right choice on the part of the developer to do so. It solves many issues and allows them to focus on each encounter without having to take into account how each encounter could affect the next. Instead it's left to a much simpler system that frees up time for the developer.

But enough of that... I hate hive minds in stealth games. When caught, before the enemy can even radio in or yell out to one of his buddies somehow everyone is alerted to your presence. This will forever annoy me.

#8 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ contracts420

Perhaps they shouldve opted for even fewer enemt encounters then.

#9 Posted by contracts420 (1956 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu:

Sure, if you want less gameplay. Most would opt for more enemy encounters though. I feel they hit the sweet spot. Over the course of my initial playthrough it took me 14 hours to beat and I had only ran into 600 some odd enemies. Compare that to most modern action games which run between 900 and 1200 enemies over a 8-10 hour experience.

No matter which direction they went with it people were going to complain, It was a case of damned if you do or damned if you don't.

#10 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ contracts420

Yes I do wan't less "conventional" gameplay.

Besides some complaints are better than others. TLOU can afford some more unconventional methods.... Quantic Dream style :p

#11 Edited by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

So I'm playing The Last Of Us right, and I'm running alil low on ammo so I decided to stealth the next encounter, I rolled up behind a dude with a pistol and strangled him, easy peasy, and then I had the strangest thought: "Wheres his ammo ?" I know if he spotted me he wouldve opened fire........ Forever , because these bastards don't run out of bullets and yet he doesn't drop any when he falls ?

This isn't a jab at TLOU, I guess I was just having one of those moments where I realised how dumb video games are some times, just like those times in stealth games where a guard walks right over the bloody corpse of his comrade and thinks to him self: "Did I turn off the stove ?" Or in an RPG: "Where the hell does she carry all that loot ?"

Sometimes it just gets to me

You know what, I change my mind, this is totally a jab at The Last Of Us, why don't these f#ckers make believable drops ? It really is beginning to piss me off.

Its a game, if you wanted to play real life you're in the wrong media :D

But ya i get the same things sometimes where its just like "WTF!!!" why didn't the devs see this is just stupid :)

As to TLOU if you had them drop ammo like they would have , the game would have been way to easy and you wouldn´t get the experience the devs wanted to give you.

#12 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

I want logic, not reality.

Also the game is already easy, limiting the ammo just makes it annoying, not difficult. Its a band aid solution to a serious design oversight.

#13 Posted by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

I want logic, not reality.

Also the game is already easy, limiting the ammo just makes it annoying, not difficult. Its a band aid solution to a serious design oversight.

Ya i got that but your logic here is more reality, also what you ask is what some games try but gets slammed for so its not easy either.

How many hasn't played skyrim and been pissed at the weight limit and downloaded a mod that gave you 100 or 1000 times the limit.

Also look at bioshock they tried to go the more "realistic logical" way and it turned out terrible because after all it's a game.

#14 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Its pure coincidence that my logic just so happens to be realist. :D

Also those didn't suffer from having logic. They suffered because the logic was applied way too late in their design. If they kept logic in mind from the get go they wouldve been fine.

#15 Edited by SoNin360 (5196 posts) -

I feel this complaint could apply to so many games. Basically any game where people are shooting at you but don't always drop ammo upon death, which is probably a lot of games. The Last of Us is meant to be limited in supplies and ammo, so each enemy can't just go dropping a bunch of ammo, although I found ammo drops to be quite generous at times, especially when I really needed ammo on Survivor. But if you aren't playing on Survivor, ammo should rarely be an issue if you choose your shots carefully and cycle through the generous amount of weapons you accumulate.

Sure, logically, humans should be dropping a good amount of ammo each time if they are sitting there shooting at you, but again, this isn't a game where you're ever supposed to feel too comfortable on ammo or supplies. I imagine if you weren't struggling with ammo, you wouldn't mind the lack of ammo drops. I mean, I've thought about this with games, why enemies firing tons of shots at me or those I kill before they even fire off anything don't drop ammo, but it's never bothered me that much.

#16 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ SoNin360

Indeed it does. However in The Last Of Us It keeps dropping ammo I don't need, I love using the pisto but it keeps giving me shotgun ammo from baddies that aren't even weilding shotguns. Lol. Is he holding it for a friend ?

#17 Posted by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Its pure coincidence that my logic just so happens to be realist. :D

Also those didn't suffer from having logic. They suffered because the logic was applied way too late in their design. If they kept logic in mind from the get go they wouldve been fine.

hehe :)

Ya, the mechanics in Bioshock 1 and infinite was pure, i never understood the facination with Levine, he strikes me as a very ordinary and sometimes bad developer, which he proves again with the new dlc.

But otherwise i can only agree, i wish sometimes they would at least try to make things seem a bit more realistic, why is it that you can kill 20 guards without even one single noticing it? or like you say you sneak up kill a guy who has a gun but no ammo, doesn't make sense.

And its not just TLOU its most games even the great ones, but i think its overlooked because its a game.

#18 Posted by Simjang (9 posts) -

I hate when I have to use very complicated mechanism to open simple door - it's irritating...

#19 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

The problem can easily if they stop making realistic games.

#20 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Simjang

Heavy Rain will leave you foaming at the mouth with Rage. Great "game" though.

#21 Edited by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

The problem can easily if they stop making realistic games.

Or people stop complaining and just enjoying great games :D

#22 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Na. I like my Idea better ! :D

#23 Posted by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Na. I like my Idea better ! :D

lol so do i :) what would we talk about if we couldn't complain.

#24 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Well Theres always Miley Cirus ! LOL :D !

#25 Edited by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Well Theres always Miley Cirus ! LOL :D !

haha, indeed lets get some twerking done :D

#26 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

When I first heard the news I was like "what the hell is twerking ?" I'm really behind on the current events.

#27 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ SoNin360

Indeed it does. However in The Last Of Us It keeps dropping ammo I don't need, I love using the pisto but it keeps giving me shotgun ammo from baddies that aren't even weilding shotguns. Lol. Is he holding it for a friend ?

#28 Posted by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

When I first heard the news I was like "what the hell is twerking ?" I'm really behind on the current events.

@ SoNin360

Indeed it does. However in The Last Of Us It keeps dropping ammo I don't need, I love using the pisto but it keeps giving me shotgun ammo from baddies that aren't even weilding shotguns. Lol. Is he holding it for a friend ?

Most amazing thing is that it even got on the main news station here in the uk .... seriously i get that MTV news is a big thing for some but what happens there during a stage show isent exactly news :)

But as to TLOU, what you see there is a system called "Random loot" which some games use to keep it exciting for you as a player :) and it has no logic, it just randomly spawns npc´s with a certain amount of random loot.

#29 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

you know what would be nice if it were random.......... Puzzles ! One of the downsides of playing Portal 2 again was knowing all the solutions to all the puzzles, if only it could generate test chambers randomly. Oh well, I'm gona get wasted and see if I can kill off some of the solutions from my memories, just gotta write down all my happy memories and passwords 1st...... Just in case things go south. Lol.

#30 Edited by Jacanuk (3621 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

you know what would be nice if it were random.......... Puzzles ! One of the downsides of playing Portal 2 again was knowing all the solutions to all the puzzles, if only it could generate test chambers randomly. Oh well, I'm gona get wasted and see if I can kill off some of the solutions from my memories, just gotta write down all my happy memories and passwords 1st...... Just in case things go south. Lol.

That would actually be a very nice feature and would also keep replay value high.

#31 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16378 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: I see what you're saying. I guess just roll with it, some broken logic in games and realism go hand in hand and as I said, games wouldn't be very fun if they were realistic. Most wouldn't, at least.

#32 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ turtlethetaffer

I never wanted the game to be more realistic.

#33 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Jacanuk

Although I must say, even if you haven't see something before you could get hit by deja vu. Your brain might accidentaly discover a pattern that it wasn't suppose to, allowing to predict things you havent seen yet. I think thats worse because now the tedium sets in before you even get started, its such a drag......

#34 Edited by turtlethetaffer (16378 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: I'm just saying in general. Logic and realism go hand in hand, but I do understand your gripe with the Last of Us ammo finding. Doesn't make sense.

Although the thing about a guy with a pistol having shotgun ammo? Kind of does make sense when you think about it. In a post apocalyptic scenario, wouldn't people want to horde everything they can, regardless of whether they can actually use it? Especially something like ammo, which is a commodity in and of itself. Sure, the gripe about them not having ammo makes sense, but the one about the guy having shotgun ammo is easily dismissed after some thought.

#35 Edited by GeoffZak (3700 posts) -

In a game like World of Warcraft, a quest may ask you to get 10 daggers from bandits in the area. (I just made that up, too lazy to look for an example, but there are quests like it in WoW) But like 1 out of every 10 bandits actually drop a dagger. I CAN SEE THEIR CORPSE HOLDING ONTO THE BLADE! ARE THEY HOLDING ONTO THEIR BLADES SO TIGHTLY THAT I CAN'T TAKE IT FROM THEM EVEN IN DEATH? DO THEY HAVE TITAN'S GRIP? You get the idea. Every mob you kill should drop the item you need, but only a few do.

I was playing Sonic 06 a few days ago and thought about the springs in the hub world. Who decided to put springs in the middle of a city? Did they know Sonic was coming and thought "Maybe Sonic will want to reach the rooftop. Good thing I have this giant spring for just this occasion!"

It's funny to think about video game logic. I guess that's kinda why Mega64 makes their videos about video games in real life.

#36 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ turtlethetaffer

So essentially we should compensate for the game's shortcommings ?

Nope. No thanks. I stopped doing that for RPGs and I aint gona start doing it for excusives. I hate exclusives out of principal I would never make excuses for an exclusive.

#37 Edited by SirWander (5176 posts) -

And this sort of "logical inconsistency" never bothered you before you played The Last of Us? There are far worse breaks in logic in game conventions than the drop rate of ammo in a third person shooter/survival horror game.

Like in a lot of shooters these days, how does being behind cover allow people to regenerate their health? Or how does eating a hot dog in Bioshock Infinite allow Booker to be healed after getting shot? In the Resident Evil series, the protagonists can be bitten multiple times and not be turned into zombies, but if an NPC gets bitten in a cutscene; uh oh, zombie alert! In Metal Gear Solid, hiding for about a minute or two makes the enemy completely forget about your presence in the immediate vicinity. You can carry far more stuff in your pockets than is possible in many games. Mushrooms make you grow in Mario games. Grass grows back immediately if you leave the area and come back in Zelda games. Phoenix downs are useless in cutscenes. Hedgehogs can't talk, nor are can they run as fast as Sonic. In fighting games, you can perform fatal attacks on your opponent and they can just walk it off. Multiple lives.

#38 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18051 posts) -

Fact is, you really can't do it any other way. What are the alternatives?

1) You have the enemies run out of ammo eventually. This breaks the game because in this case the player simply has to bait the AI into shooting itself dry at his cover and then move in to punch its skull off.

2) You give guns only to one enemy in 10, so you can have just them drop a lot of ammo when killed and still not defeat the purpose of resource management. This breaks the game, as having 90% of the enemies being melee fighters turns the game into a beat'em up.

3) You have all armed enemies drop ammo and severly limit the capacity of the ammo the player can carry. This still breaks the game, since you end up having infinite ammo against human enemies and no ammo against the infected.

#39 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

They can. Simply make the game less realistic. I think thats whats getting in the way of logical consistancy. The brain dead Zombies, the the annoying weapon swaying, the uselessness of the campanions, if they focused less on making them realistic then maybe just maybe it wouldve been a better game. Does that make sense to you ?

#40 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ SirWander

It always bothered me. Only reason I brought it up is because I have way too much freetime on my hands and the little things seem way bigger when you got nothing better to do.

#41 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18051 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

@ Black_Knight_00

They can. Simply make the game less realistic. I think thats whats getting in the way of logical consistancy. The brain dead Zombies, the the annoying weapon swaying, the uselessness of the campanions, if they focused less on making them realistic then maybe just maybe it wouldve been a better game. Does that make sense to you ?

Honestly I don't see how that relates to the ammo drops. That aside, the things you mentioned *detract* from realism instead of contributing to it.

#42 Edited by SirWander (5176 posts) -

Well it's a game convention that's made in the name of balancing the difficulty instead of striving towards believable actions. Games, or fiction as a whole, shouldn't adhere to the constraints of plausibility. The drop rate of ammo is not a problem when you consider the game wants to force the player to feel encumbered by being outgunned and having limited resources to pass through the violent confrontations. Although it is character driven, it's first and foremost a video game; and because of that it has to adhere to conventions that implies.

Honestly, it's not something I feel this game should be singled out for.

#43 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Obviously, my beef with the ammo drops is not for the sake of realism, it was for the sake of logic. Realism sucks, everybody knows that, realism is poison to video game design.

#44 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18051 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Obviously, my beef with the ammo drops is not for the sake of realism, it was for the sake of logic. Realism sucks, everybody knows that, realism is poison to video game design.

Interesting. I love realism. Why do you find it so loathsome?

#45 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Because its real, its crappiness is axiomatic.

why don't you find it so loathsome ?

#46 Edited by Ish_basic (3888 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: Or in an RPG: "Where the hell does she carry all that loot ?"

Bag of Holding

Inventory management is irritating, especially the tetris systems where you're moving objects around trying to fit them inside a grid. In a genre where gear is life, being able to hold as much as possible is a good thing. Just chalk it up to magic and thank the game developers for not incorporating some sort of arbitrary inventory restrictions

....like FarCry 3. There's 50 dollars and a tiger pelt on the ground. My wallet is full and my backpack is empty. I can pick up the tiger pelt but I'm just gonna have to leave the $50 because where would I put it? My backpack can hold a zoo's worth of animal hides, but $50?! I can't carry all that! Drove me nuts.

Note to developers: If I want to pick up a small country and put it into my backpack, let me.

#47 Posted by touchscreenpad (220 posts) -

I think it might also be bad if the game is too logical. Though in some horror games there are illogical moments like when the character hears a strange sound, "heck I'll just check it out and get into trouble" or something like that. But then again that's game logic for ya. XD

#48 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Ish_basic

I've always enjoyed President Evil 5's simplified grid system. President Evil 4 used the "tetris inventory, it was too complicated.

On some level I liked TLOU's one aswell but only alil

#49 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18051 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Because its real, its crappiness is axiomatic.

why don't you find it so loathsome ?

Hm that's not a satisfactory answer, but oh well.

I love realism because it puts you in situations you can't/wouldn't get yourself into in the real world, but still remains believable.

#50 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8568 posts) -

@ Black_Knight_00

Realism is what they did with TLOU's aiming. In addition to using a PS3 controller the devs decided to screw with my aiming just because Joel is a p#ssy. I worked hard to become a decent shot and I don't appreciated devs f#cking with that to make the game seem more realistic. Its not my fault Joel can't shoot for sh!t.

And thats one of the many reasons why I hate realism.