PS Orbis vs Xbox Durango. Digital Foundry's verdict.

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#51 Posted by D3s7rUc71oN (5180 posts) -

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

[QUOTE="dvader654"]

3D games are so amazing. Totally agree with Solid.

Solid even if Sony blows everyone away with graphics next week everyone will just say its tech demos and not believe it. Its going to be the PS3 all over again.

dvader654

Do any of the games we have now look like the games they initially showed when the PS3 was announced 2006? Forgive us if we have been shown CG being played off as in game time and time again.

Oh come on, eventually the games looked better than those videos. All I am saying is that the same thing is going to happen. Its probably going to be some BS vids, I am telling Solid that what happens next week wont change anything. Just cause they show amazing footage it might not mean much.

I don't know if Pedro played Killzone 3, but I wouldn't be surprise him saying the CG looks better :P

#52 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

[QUOTE="dvader654"] Oh come on, eventually the games looked better than those videos. All I am saying is that the same thing is going to happen. Its probably going to be some BS vids, I am telling Solid that what happens next week wont change anything. Just cause they show amazing footage it might not mean much. D3s7rUc71oN

I don't know if Pedro played Killzone 3, but I wouldn't be surprise him saying the CG looks better :P

Well yes. They are right. The CGi tech demos Sony showed at E3 do look better. Especially Motorstorm which probably wont even be possible this gen.

Killzone and Heavenely Sword came close, but nothing can match the smoothness, smoke and explosion effects of a CGi movie. KZ3 does look amazing. I like this comparison of the E3 2005 CGi vs the E3 2007 realtime demo of KZ2. 

http://generationdreamteam.free.fr/afrika/killzone2/KillZone2compa.jpg

The final game ended up looking even better, and KZ3 looks even better than KZ2 so we can safely say they came close to even the CGi renders, and completely shattering any realtime tech demos from E3 2006.

#53 Posted by D3s7rUc71oN (5180 posts) -

[QUOTE="D3s7rUc71oN"]

[QUOTE="dvader654"] Oh come on, eventually the games looked better than those videos. All I am saying is that the same thing is going to happen. Its probably going to be some BS vids, I am telling Solid that what happens next week wont change anything. Just cause they show amazing footage it might not mean much. S0lidSnake

I don't know if Pedro played Killzone 3, but I wouldn't be surprise him saying the CG looks better :P

Well yes. They are right. The CGi tech demos Sony showed at E3 do look better. Especially Motorstorm which probably wont even be possible this gen.

Killzone and Heavenely Sword came close, but nothing can match the smoothness, smoke and explosion effects of a CGi movie. KZ3 does look amazing. I like this comparison of the E3 2005 CGi vs the E3 2007 realtime demo of KZ2. 

http://generationdreamteam.free.fr/afrika/killzone2/KillZone2compa.jpg

The final game ended up looking even better, and KZ3 looks even better than KZ2 so we can safely say they came close to even the CGi renders, and completely shattering any realtime tech demos from E3 2006.

I was referring the killzone CG shown at E3 2006, not the motorstorm one. I should have been more specific. The Motorstorm one, well I just seen it recently and no way that's possible and I wouldn't have believe it even back then. 

#54 Posted by Chemistian (635 posts) -

 

ON A VERY ROUGH LEVEL being the key. They're explaining ROPs, they're not saying this and this will actually happen like you are.

Nobody, NOBODY is going to do higher resolutions than 1080p. It's also quite likely that a lot of developers will opt for lower resolutions in favor of greater graphical details, larger worlds and so on.

 

Why not? (this is a sincere question, I realize forum posts often can lack tone) Using this console generation as a basis, it would be fair to say that the next gens from MS and Sony will probably be around for just short of a decade. Given that PC is constantly upgrading technical specs, it stands to reason that televisions will see at least something of an upgrade, be it in framerates (240hz refresh being more common, for example) or in clarity. This would seem additionally prudent being as 3D still looks rather poor in some cases.

#55 Posted by Teuf_ (30805 posts) -

Why not? (this is a sincere question, I realize forum posts often can lack tone) Using this console generation as a basis, it would be fair to say that the next gens from MS and Sony will probably be around for just short of a decade. Given that PC is constantly upgrading technical specs, it stands to reason that televisions will see at least something of an upgrade, be it in framerates (240hz refresh being more common, for example) or in clarity. This would seem additionally prudent being as 3D still looks rather poor in some cases.

Chemistian



Going from 1280x720 to 1920x1080 is about 2x the number of pixels. By default this means taking all of the work you do for a single pixel (texturing, lighting, post-processing, etc.) and multiplying the cost by 2x. Double it again and you're at 4x. Developers will have to decide if it's worth burning through that much hardware just to put out more pixels, when they could go lower and do more work for each pixel.

#56 Posted by Planeforger (15794 posts) -

So...long story short, both are roughly at the same level, and I take it that neither will be too close to current top-end gaming PCs?

Well, at least there'll be less pointless 'my console is more powerful than your console' threads this gen. Hopefully.

#57 Posted by lild1425 (6757 posts) -

Will the Durango also double as a space heater? I kid you not when I say that I've used my 360 before when the heat was wiggin out in my dorm room.

#58 Posted by OctaBech (276 posts) -

So...long story short, both are roughly at the same level, and I take it that neither will be too close to current top-end gaming PCs?

Well, at least there'll be less pointless 'my console is more powerful than your console' threads this gen. Hopefully.

Planeforger
Rather rough, but the Durango specs are adequate enough to not withhold 3rd party titles.
#59 Posted by UpInFlames (13279 posts) -

 Why not? (this is a sincere question, I realize forum posts often can lack tone) Using this console generation as a basis, it would be fair to say that the next gens from MS and Sony will probably be around for just short of a decade. Given that PC is constantly upgrading technical specs, it stands to reason that televisions will see at least something of an upgrade, be it in framerates (240hz refresh being more common, for example) or in clarity. This would seem additionally prudent being as 3D still looks rather poor in some cases.

Chemistian

Because the benefits don't justify the work and cost required. Even years down the road, most TV's in people's homes won't be above 1080p. Also, going from standard definition to 720p was a vast improvement, easily noticeable. Going from 720p to 1080p is also rather significant, but less so. Going further than that doesn't really make THAT much of a difference. I would also wager that the vast majority od developers would opt for higher graphical details, larger worlds rather than upping the resolution which is extremely taxing on hardware.

It's interesting that you mentioned PC because PC technology in the past 5-10 years has been moving forward at a much, much slower pace than ever before. That also translated into a longer console cycle.

#60 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

I read a rumor recently that somebody actually claimed the NextXB specs were a bit dated and based on older dev kits that didn't fully represent the full power of the system.

I have no idea if that is true.

Personally, I think we are looking at yet another repeat of last generation, which is hardly a bad thing.

#61 Posted by Pedro (21109 posts) -
If these systems are using AMD jaguar processors, what documentation indicates or lead folks to believe that they would have 8 cores when all AMD docs indicate 2-4?
#62 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

If these systems are using AMD jaguar processors, what documentation indicates or lead folks to believe that they would have 8 cores when all AMD docs indicate 2-4?Pedro

Here:

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled/

Apparently they are arranged as two clusters. Whatever that means. 

Here is the Durango leaked specs. These are a year old, but sources have said the specs haven't changed since then.

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/

#63 Posted by Chemistian (635 posts) -

[QUOTE="Chemistian"]

 Why not? (this is a sincere question, I realize forum posts often can lack tone) Using this console generation as a basis, it would be fair to say that the next gens from MS and Sony will probably be around for just short of a decade. Given that PC is constantly upgrading technical specs, it stands to reason that televisions will see at least something of an upgrade, be it in framerates (240hz refresh being more common, for example) or in clarity. This would seem additionally prudent being as 3D still looks rather poor in some cases.

UpInFlames

Because the benefits don't justify the work and cost required. Even years down the road, most TV's in people's homes won't be above 1080p. Also, going from standard definition to 720p was a vast improvement, easily noticeable. Going from 720p to 1080p is also rather significant, but less so. Going further than that doesn't really make THAT much of a difference. I would also wager that the vast majority od developers would opt for higher graphical details, larger worlds rather than upping the resolution which is extremely taxing on hardware.

It's interesting that you mentioned PC because PC technology in the past 5-10 years has been moving forward at a much, much slower pace than ever before. That also translated into a longer console cycle.

My statement on PC should probably be limited to Moore's Law, as I have limited knowledge in other aspects of PC advancements over the past 5-10 years. Be that as it may, most analysts still subscribe to this theory, and I would think (possibly incorrectly) that it would apply at least minimally to the other areas of tech development. Also, I believe the current console generation cycle was extended almost entirely due to a cost/benefit analysis within MS and Sony respectively. Both companies placed substantial investments into this generation, and it took at least halfway (roughly the same length of time as the original PlayStation prior to the PS2) for either company to become profitable in their gaming departments. It is debatable as to whether Sony has been profitable in this light at all. Thank you both (Teufelhuen and UpInFlames) for answering my question.
#64 Posted by Pedro (21109 posts) -

[QUOTE="Pedro"]If these systems are using AMD jaguar processors, what documentation indicates or lead folks to believe that they would have 8 cores when all AMD docs indicate 2-4?S0lidSnake

Here:

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled/

Apparently they are arranged as two clusters. Whatever that means. 

Here is the Durango leaked specs. These are a year old, but sources have said the specs haven't changed since then.

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/

Hmmm interesting. The jaguar/kabini are high performance low power cpus that are meant to compete with the Atom. So there overall computational power is not specifically strong. With two sets of these processors in the system, I believe one would be used for gaming and the other for multi tasking. However, I find it hard to believe that they would place a total of 2 CPU die and one GPU. That seems very unlikely. If anything, i would wager quad core Kabini with the GCN core. As for the RAM, i am also waging 2GB with 4GB for the absolute most.
#65 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

[QUOTE="S0lidSnake"]

[QUOTE="Pedro"]

Here:

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-orbis-unveiled/

Apparently they are arranged as two clusters. Whatever that means. 

Here is the Durango leaked specs. These are a year old, but sources have said the specs haven't changed since then.

http://www.vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-durango-unveiled-2/

Pedro

Hmmm interesting. The jaguar/kabini are high performance low power cpus that are meant to compete with the Atom. So there overall computational power is not specifically strong. With two sets of these processors in the system, I believe one would be used for gaming and the other for multi tasking. However, I find it hard to believe that they would place a total of 2 CPU die and one GPU. That seems very unlikely. If anything, i would wager quad core Kabini with the GCN core. As for the RAM, i am also waging 2GB with 4GB for the absolute most.

I'm not fimiliar with Kabini but apparently the PS4 has the CPU and GPU on the same die. 

And the 8 core CPU has been confirmed by almost everyone except for Sony and MS. This is from a digital foundry article a few weeks ago.

Both the next generation PlayStation - and its Xbox competitor - feature eight-core CPUs clocked at 1.6GHz according to sources trusted by Digital Foundry. The main processor architecture driving both consoles is said to be derived the new "Jaguar" technologycurrently in development by Intel's arch-rival, AMD. These are low-power processor cores designed for the entry-level laptop and tablet market, offering an excellent ratio between power consumption and performance. The PC Jaguar products are set to ship later this year in a quad-core configuration - next-gen consoles see the core count double with some customisations added to the overall design.

Previous rumours have suggested that Orbis runs its CPU cores along with some graphics hardware inside a standalone, custom AMD Fusion core with a separate, discrete GPU. Our sources suggest otherwise - all of these elements are embedded into the same piece of silicon, and we can confirm that the internal codename for the processor is indeed "Liverpool", as was mooted some time ago. Sony does have some form here for pushing the envelope - PlayStation Vita represents the only mobile GPU processor that combined quad-core ARM Cortex A9s with the PowerVR SGX543 MP4. Even on the power-hungry iPad 3, Apple stuck with dual-core CPU architecture at the same 45nm fabrication node.

The news that so much processing power is packed onto a single processor is highly significant to the point where credibility could be stretched somewhat. However, helping to explain matters is the make-up of AMD's Jaguar tech - each core occupies just 3.1mm2 of die-space at the 28nm fabrication standard. Factor in L2 cache, and the overall CPU component could be as little as 75-80mm2 in total. That's in contrast to the 235mm2 of the launch PS3's Cell processor and the 240mm2 of the Emotion Engine chip inside the original PlayStation 2 - neither of which factored in the separate graphics hardware, which in both cases was even larger. By our reckoning, the more efficient eight-core set-up still leaves plenty of space for integrating the main GPU onto the same die, with space to spare. This offers up significant production cost savings and brings down overall power consumption.Digital Foundry

_________________________________________________________
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/df-hardware-orbis-unmasked-what-to-expect-from-next-gen-console

 

#66 Posted by Pedro (21109 posts) -
Now that sound even less credible. LOL. By placing the GPU on the same die as the CPU the GPU performance would be compromised espcially if they are doubling the Max specs of the Jaguar. Something got to give, either separate the CPU from the GPU or compromise the overall performance but here is the kicker, A quad core Jaguar was a huge step for AMD so I find it highly unlikely that they would have octocore with a gpu all on one chip.
#67 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

Now that sound even less credible. LOL. By placing the GPU on the same die as the CPU the GPU performance would be compromised espcially if they are doubling the Max specs of the Jaguar. Something got to give, either separate the CPU from the GPU or compromise the overall performance but here is the kicker, A quad core Jaguar was a huge step for AMD so I find it highly unlikely that they would have octocore with a gpu all on one chip.Pedro

This thing has been in R&D for nearly six years. I am sure they've figured out a way to put them both on the same die without compromising the performance. 

I think you are going to be surprised to see how accurate these specs are come Feburary 20th. Like I said earlier, multiple news outlets have confirmed these specs with multiple sources... likely 3rd party devs. The original PS4 devkits included a steamroller and talked about this Liverpool APU being part of the design since the beginning. The Durango specs haven't changed in nearly a year. I am 99% sure the PS4 will have a 8 core 1.6 GHz CPU and a 18 CU GPU at 800 mhz with 4GB DDR5 RAM. The 720 will have the same CPU, a 12 CU GPU at 800 mhz and 8GB DDR3 RAM and 32MB ESRAM. 

You are making bets in the other thread that probably wont be setttled for another 6 years, but this one will be settled in 7 days. And next month when Durango is revealed.

#68 Posted by F1Lengend (7883 posts) -
I'm loving everything I'm hearing about PS4 so far, the only two things I worry about is: 1. Bundling a camera with every box 2. No used games. Hopefully these don't happen.
#69 Posted by Pedro (21109 posts) -

[QUOTE="Pedro"]Now that sound even less credible. LOL. By placing the GPU on the same die as the CPU the GPU performance would be compromised espcially if they are doubling the Max specs of the Jaguar. Something got to give, either separate the CPU from the GPU or compromise the overall performance but here is the kicker, A quad core Jaguar was a huge step for AMD so I find it highly unlikely that they would have octocore with a gpu all on one chip.S0lidSnake

This thing has been in R&D for nearly six years. I am sure they've figured out a way to put them both on the same die without compromising the performance. 

I think you are going to be surprised to see how accurate these specs are come Feburary 20th. Like I said earlier, multiple news outlets have confirmed these specs with multiple sources... likely 3rd party devs. The original PS4 devkits included a steamroller and talked about this Liverpool APU being part of the design since the beginning. The Durango specs haven't changed in nearly a year. I am 99% sure the PS4 will have a 8 core 1.6 GHz CPU and a 18 CU GPU at 800 mhz with 4GB DDR5 RAM. The 720 will have the same CPU, a 12 CU GPU at 800 mhz and 8GB DDR3 RAM and 32MB ESRAM. 

You are making bets in the other thread that probably wont be setttled for another 6 years, but this one will be settled in 7 days. And next month when Durango is revealed.

It doesn't really matter how long they have been working on it, they are still limited by yields. If having a quad was a major advancement for this particular processor which still hasn't been released, I think getting 8 cores with a GPU is a bit out of their league given the limited time frame that is currently available. But we will see. Just remember your claim and others' claim is that their would be one die with 8 cores and the GPU. :)

#70 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

It doesn't really matter how long they have been working on it, they are still limited by yields. If having a quad was a major advancement for this particular processor which still hasn't been released, I think getting 8 cores with a GPU is a bit out of their league given the limited time frame that is currently available. But we will see. Just remember your claim and others' claim is that their would be one die with 8 cores and the GPU. :)

Pedro

It's on. 

#71 Posted by dvader654 (44751 posts) -
Dont know where to put this, will throw this here http://www.edge-online.com/news/fox-engine-set-for-reveal-at-gdc-2013/ FOX engine to be revealed at GDC! Kojima will do a presentation, so expect loads of Metal Gear. Can't wait!
#72 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

Dont know where to put this, will throw this here http://www.edge-online.com/news/fox-engine-set-for-reveal-at-gdc-2013/ FOX engine to be revealed at GDC! Kojima will do a presentation, so expect loads of Metal Gear. Can't wait! dvader654

Cant wait for some next gen goodness!