Pre-owned games is what's crippling the industry?

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#1 Edited by Tobougg (42 posts) -

So we had the chance (with xbox one) to be able to give our money to the developers more than once. And be awarded for that, but we all had an uproar about it "NOOOOOOO I DON'T WAN TO HAVE TO ONLY BE ABLE TO TRADE MY GAMES ONLINE WITH THE DEVS" etc. So now basically whats happened is we give the developer's about 20 dollars per copy of the game they make. And they never make another penny from that copy of that game they spent 3 years making.

Then you get scumbag companies like Gamestop etc, buying a game for 20 dollars, selling it for 70 dollars. the guy finishes the game and a week later trades it back in. he get's 22 dollars back for the game. So now gamestop have paid 42 dollars for the one copy of the game, but when they sell it agains, they sell it for 65. so theyve made 135 dollars from 1 copy. In 3 years time, just as an example. That 1 single copy of just 1 single game could have been sold back to them and resold 10 times, for just one copy. and every few months, the trade in price goes down.. 22 dollars, 18 dollars, 15, 8 etc. while the resale price doesn't drop nearly as quickly. so in 3 years they'll still be selling that game for 45 dollars, and only giving you 6 dollars of a trade in. So with the 10 trades of that 1 single game, they've probably made about 500 dollars profit... from 1 game.

Why doesn't the developer get any of this money? Its crazy.

I went into Gamestop (im in ireland) and Red Dead Redemption is STILL €24.99. I counted and there's 17 copies of it on the preowned shelf. 17 copies at 24.99. Instead of selling an old game for 14.99 and selling 17 of them, they sell maybe 1 or 2 of them for 24.99. There's games like colin mcrae dirt 1 in there still at 24.99. but they'll only give you 3 euro on the trade in. Basically im calling these guys out for being Gangsters.

Also how F*CKING DARE they sell you a new game for €70 (about $90). then give a guy 22 for it when he trades it back in a few days later. and then resell it for €65!!! How the hell do they get away with selling you a pre-owned copy of a game. Where the codes have been used and you probably can't play it online (basically losing 50% of the game's functionality) for €5 less than a brand new game. Is there no law's or regulations? They seem to be able to do what they want. And noone seems to call them out on it.

my last comment is digital games. Im a ps3 owner. i went online to purchase GT6, as i thought "no box, no book, no shipping, no middlemen etc, it'll be about €39.99.. SEVENTY euro... like €70... these people should be put in prison.

Because BF4 is out, i wanted to rebuy BF3 to play for a while, while im waiting to get my PS4. They raised the price of a 3-4 year olf game to €59.99. BF3 on PSN store is €60 again.

Im telling you i don't understand how all these people don't get put into prison as it's nothing short of extorsion.

#2 Edited by syztem (7713 posts) -

The developer doesn't get any money because they don't own the physical objects that you've paid for.

The only problem is people being dumb enough to trade it in for peanuts instead of selling it privately. But it's theirs; they can do what they want with it.

#3 Posted by Pedro (21266 posts) -

First or all you are not force to part take in any transactions at Gamestop. It is and always has been optional for selling and purchasing items.

Developers should not receive a penny more on any sold hard copy version of their games regardless of the number times it has been resold.

#4 Edited by elbcen (11 posts) -

We all like to focus on Gamestop when we discuss used games, but rarely do I hear people mentioning those games that we get on Amazon or Ebay from other players like us. In that case, there is no retailer making money off of the product (for the most part), and all the money just goes to the one that sells the game. Is that okay? Does that hurt the industry?

In theory it does, right? The developers still don't make any money off of your purchase from Ebay, but you can at least rest easy that Gamestop isn't getting any either. Like syzstem said, its actually much more profitable for you to sell the game on Amazon because you can often get $10 more than what you would have been offered at Gamestop, and the one that purchases the game will still get it at a lower price than a pre-owned copy of the same game at Gamestop.

That's actually quite convenient, now isn't it? Sure, the developers don't get any money, but doesn't it suck being stuck with that one game you really hate, but purchased because of reviews and the like? If we had the Xbox One stay the way it was, you would be stuck with that 70 Euro purchase of yours, whether you like it or not.

Not to mention, all those old games that aren't even available at Gamestop anymore? Just get them off of Amazon. Seriously, I bought Red Faction on Playstation 2 for a cent. I am not joking, it was a single cent plus shipping. I got all Resistance games seperately for the Playstation 3 for a total of twenty dollars on Amazon. I love it, I seriously do, but of course I am hurting the industry that way. I feel bad, but not as bad as I'd feel when purchasing a new game for $60 only to find out that its not really fun for me.

Today I found out that they sold Tomb Raider for 10 dollar on PSN though, and I immediately went ahead and bought it. There you go, that's a great sale too, so if the industry really wants to keep used games from staying the norm they should start making better deals a month or two or three after its release.

#5 Edited by Dtree11 (29 posts) -

@tobougg: The math does not seem right to me. None the less I wouldn't worry too much about the developers because they will make their profit. They hire the right people to forecast sales and charge the appropriate amount of money per game. Here is where the used game industry hurts the business: If games were single sales and were not able to be resold, shared, or COPIED then game developers, in theory, would be able to charge less per game. But, because we live in a capitalistic society, that will never happen. I like your passion for the industry, it is reassuring to know that there is more to gaming than just playing games.

#6 Posted by Tobougg (42 posts) -

@Pedro said:

First or all you are not force to part take in any transactions at Gamestop. It is and always has been optional for selling and purchasing items.

Developers should not receive a penny more on any sold hard copy version of their games regardless of the number times it has been resold.

The dev's shouldn't make another penny. But some extorsionate company taking advantage of the gap in the market and charging us crazy prices for games that are years old should?

#7 Posted by Pedro (21266 posts) -

@tobougg said:

The dev's shouldn't make another penny. But some extorsionate company taking advantage of the gap in the market and charging us crazy prices for games that are years old should?

They care conducting perfectly legal transactions that well within the scope of legit business. Developers and publishers have no legitimate claim to any of these profits. The developer sells one license to use per copy. That license can be transfered as many times as desired. Keyword being transfered as in not shared or copied. Gamestop whether you like it or not is offering a service to gamers and its always up to the gamer to utilize these services.

#8 Posted by GalvatronType_R (1878 posts) -

Used games are like games cause violence. Like the mainstream media saying games cause deaths, used games is the boogeyman that the industry likes to use as a blanket excuse for their ineptitude and careless spending without any evidence whatsoever.

Let me be clear: THERE IS NOT ONE STUDY OR ANY PROOF ANYWHERE THAT USED GAMES HAVE HARMED THE INDUSTRY.

#9 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18805 posts) -

Nice try, Major Nelson

#10 Posted by david61983 (205 posts) -

I wouldn't have a problem with getting rid of used games like MS wanted to do with the Xbone if that meant we would get PC game prices. Sadly, however, I never thought that would ever happen which is why I was always against banning used games.

#11 Edited by RimacBugatti (1287 posts) -

That and the people that pirate the games. I'm not sure if they will be able to do it this gen but I know someone personally that was burning 360 games. Not my style because I support the companies. Yes I want to save money but not by scamming and screwing over the hard working companies.

#12 Edited by RealJaysonguy (219 posts) -

Used games isn't necessarily hurting the industry as a whole, but it's one of the many factors that's been crippling innovation. Companies understanding that they won't be making 100% of the profits causes them to act with a greater amount of caution when approving game pitches. We'll likely see a bunch of new ideas in the first few years of this next generation of consoles, but sequels will most assuredly dominate the second half of its lifespan.

But when it really comes down to it, Reggie Fils-Aime says it best: If developers are so concerned about used sales, they should make games people don't want to trade in.

#13 Posted by RimacBugatti (1287 posts) -

Yes that is true but it would be difficult to make a game that people would play over and over. People are so hard to please these days. I myself just keep the games because years later I may go back and play like my Dreamcast for example.

#14 Edited by barrybarryk (436 posts) -

Developers have no right to moan about used games in the first place let alone claim they're destructive.

If they don't want games to be traded back in then they should make games people want to own instead of tightly controlled 'cinematic experiences'

#15 Edited by Netret0120 (2255 posts) -

Sell your games privately. Or keep them because trading in is a massive ripoff

#16 Posted by I-AM-N00B (410 posts) -

If you couldnt trade a game in if you didnt like it, not as many people would take a risk when it came to trying out new franchises, therefore developers wouldnt make as much money in the long run.

#17 Posted by The_Last_Ride (73543 posts) -

uhm if you are so little satisfied just buy games online or directly from Live or PSN. Developers get a bigger share doing that. It's that simple. Used games aren't killing developers and publishers, it's bad managing of how they spend their money. If you can't get a profit from Tomb Raider, Resident Evil, Darksiders, etc who all sold over a million and more, then there is something very wrong with the budget. I go with the physical copy because i can do with it whatever i freaking want with it. I can borrow it to family and friends. If i am not happy with the game i can sell it to whoever i want to. That's the point, they should have no say in what you do with the copy. IT's not a freaking license you bought, it's a game.

#18 Posted by Jacanuk (5448 posts) -

@tobougg said:

So we had the chance (with xbox one) to be able to give our money to the developers more than once. And be awarded for that, but we all had an uproar about it "NOOOOOOO I DON'T WAN TO HAVE TO ONLY BE ABLE TO TRADE MY GAMES ONLINE WITH THE DEVS" etc. So now basically whats happened is we give the developer's about 20 dollars per copy of the game they make. And they never make another penny from that copy of that game they spent 3 years making.

Then you get scumbag companies like Gamestop etc, buying a game for 20 dollars, selling it for 70 dollars. the guy finishes the game and a week later trades it back in. he get's 22 dollars back for the game. So now gamestop have paid 42 dollars for the one copy of the game, but when they sell it agains, they sell it for 65. so theyve made 135 dollars from 1 copy. In 3 years time, just as an example. That 1 single copy of just 1 single game could have been sold back to them and resold 10 times, for just one copy. and every few months, the trade in price goes down.. 22 dollars, 18 dollars, 15, 8 etc. while the resale price doesn't drop nearly as quickly. so in 3 years they'll still be selling that game for 45 dollars, and only giving you 6 dollars of a trade in. So with the 10 trades of that 1 single game, they've probably made about 500 dollars profit... from 1 game.

Why doesn't the developer get any of this money? Its crazy.

I went into Gamestop (im in ireland) and Red Dead Redemption is STILL €24.99. I counted and there's 17 copies of it on the preowned shelf. 17 copies at 24.99. Instead of selling an old game for 14.99 and selling 17 of them, they sell maybe 1 or 2 of them for 24.99. There's games like colin mcrae dirt 1 in there still at 24.99. but they'll only give you 3 euro on the trade in. Basically im calling these guys out for being Gangsters.

Also how F*CKING DARE they sell you a new game for €70 (about $90). then give a guy 22 for it when he trades it back in a few days later. and then resell it for €65!!! How the hell do they get away with selling you a pre-owned copy of a game. Where the codes have been used and you probably can't play it online (basically losing 50% of the game's functionality) for €5 less than a brand new game. Is there no law's or regulations? They seem to be able to do what they want. And noone seems to call them out on it.

my last comment is digital games. Im a ps3 owner. i went online to purchase GT6, as i thought "no box, no book, no shipping, no middlemen etc, it'll be about €39.99.. SEVENTY euro... like €70... these people should be put in prison.

Because BF4 is out, i wanted to rebuy BF3 to play for a while, while im waiting to get my PS4. They raised the price of a 3-4 year olf game to €59.99. BF3 on PSN store is €60 again.

Im telling you i don't understand how all these people don't get put into prison as it's nothing short of extorsion.

Think you need to relax and take a breather next time before posting, because posting angry is never a good things and the post usally ends up bad.

But what you are criticizing here is what makes the western world so great, and its called Free Market. If i own something i have the right to sell it and then they in turn have the right to do with what they want. Thats just the way it works.

#19 Posted by jer_1 (7451 posts) -

The OP is obviously a sucker to corporate bullshit ploys. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR RIGHTS!!!

#20 Edited by JordanElek (18002 posts) -

@tobougg said:

So now basically whats happened is we give the developer's about 20 dollars per copy of the game they make. And they never make another penny from that copy of that game they spent 3 years making.

my last comment is digital games. Im a ps3 owner. i went online to purchase GT6, as i thought "no box, no book, no shipping, no middlemen etc, it'll be about €39.99.. SEVENTY euro... like €70... these people should be put in prison.

So in the first paragraph, developers don't get enough money for the product they made.

In the second paragraph, developers get too much money for the product they made.

Is that about right?

#21 Posted by JustPlainLucas (74651 posts) -

I ask this question every time this debate is brought up. Have you ever bought anything used? Used clothing? Used movies, CDs, books? Ever been to a library? Borrowed something from someone? If yes, then you are denying money owed to the person or persons who made it. It's a double standard that I would like to see end.

I think you should be more mad at publishers not giving enough money to the developers than expect gamers to stop buying used games.

#22 Posted by hrt_rulz01 (6603 posts) -

While I'm not against pre-owned games, I've never bought a pre-owned game personally. Usually they are only a few dollars cheaper than a new copy... why would you buy a pre-owned copy??

#23 Posted by JustPlainLucas (74651 posts) -

@hrt_rulz01 said:

While I'm not against pre-owned games, I've never bought a pre-owned game personally. Usually they are only a few dollars cheaper than a new copy... why would you buy a pre-owned copy??

If it's to save a few bucks, people will. There are also people who look at it this way: If I buy 11 used games at 55 dollars, then I've saved enough money to buy another used game at 55 dollars. Also, I'm sure some people buy used games because they're sick of the constant battle between game stores and publishers, so they do it to spite them. I know I've done that myself.

#24 Edited by hrt_rulz01 (6603 posts) -

@JustPlainLucas said:

@hrt_rulz01 said:

While I'm not against pre-owned games, I've never bought a pre-owned game personally. Usually they are only a few dollars cheaper than a new copy... why would you buy a pre-owned copy??

If it's to save a few bucks, people will. There are also people who look at it this way: If I buy 11 used games at 55 dollars, then I've saved enough money to buy another used game at 55 dollars. Also, I'm sure some people buy used games because they're sick of the constant battle between game stores and publishers, so they do it to spite them. I know I've done that myself.

Yeah I guess... I never would but that's just me I guess.

#25 Edited by Carl_W21 (2021 posts) -

Did anyone see Boogie2988 youtube video on this ? Very good insight

#26 Edited by BranKetra (49271 posts) -

Are the two questions you asked meant to be rhetorical? This appears to be a blog thread improperly made which is why I asked.

#27 Posted by svaubel (2571 posts) -

Blame Gamestop's monopoly on the used market if you want, because it's shit. Used games used to be $5 less than new, now most of them are only $2 less. Screw that!

Dont side with the devs though and say used sales are making them loose money. Used games would not exist if someone did not buy it new in the first place. they got their money for the new sale. Maybe it is their own fault for making short games with no replayability and thus people are not wanting to hang onto their games.

#28 Posted by MysteryJ0ker (93 posts) -

One issue I don't understand is when people advocate used gaming but also advocate against piracy. Both negate the developer from ever seeing a dime. You can't argue for one without the other.

#29 Posted by guynamedbilly (12967 posts) -

This has existed for 30 years. It's not something that's caused the downfall of gaming until the last 4 years or so. How does that work?

#30 Edited by Jacanuk (5448 posts) -

@MysteryJ0ker said:

One issue I don't understand is when people advocate used gaming but also advocate against piracy. Both negate the developer from ever seeing a dime. You can't argue for one without the other.

Ehmm, because piracy is theft and buying used is not....

What you are saying is like saying that buying a used car and stealing a car is the same thing.

#31 Posted by Bigboi500 (30428 posts) -

@Pedro said:

First or all you are not force to part take in any transactions at Gamestop. It is and always has been optional for selling and purchasing items.

Developers should not receive a penny more on any sold hard copy version of their games regardless of the number times it has been resold.

This. Devs are only entitled to money for the first time any game is sold. After that they get nothing.

Used games have been a part of the industry for a long time now, and it's never crippled gaming. The only reason people in the industry are complaining is because they've become more greedy. Micro-transactions prove this.

#32 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6032 posts) -

First of all, what I choose to do with my property is no one's damn business but my own.

Secondly, any industry that is unable to sustain itself in the face of a secondhand market deserves to fail.

Finally, when people shout nonsense like this, it's because they don't look at the bigger picture- that being that any move to shut down the likes of Gamestop will also likely result in the government outlawing things like thrift shops and garage sales.

#33 Edited by jdc6305 (3955 posts) -

I'm not paying full retail for a game that is 10 hours long and has day one DLC. I'll wait till it's dirt cheap and buy it used. I don't sell my games I hang on to them. It's been 25 years and I still enjoy going back and playing my nes. I hate being nickle and dimed on content. If they can't sell me a complete finished product I'm not paying full price.

#34 Edited by Jackc8 (8500 posts) -

Although it makes sense, in theory, that if used games sales didn't exist the developers would make more money and we'd get more and better games because of it, in reality I very much doubt that you'd see any difference. A lot of the extra money they made would probably just go into additional advertising and the rest...we'll you'd probably find out there wasn't much more.

#35 Edited by k2theswiss (16599 posts) -

1 calling game stop scum company because you you want to be lazy, you are t he only one yo blame... trading to gamestop is nice you can go there any time, no dealing with posting ads eBay fees shipping ect. you are taking a small lost for that. PLUS you a idiot for not taking use of game stop deals. they constantly have 30- 50. percent bonus offers

2 sure you can look at used games has a lost of money , but there is a bigger picture. not wveryone is willing to pay full retail for a game so they buy it used. Well if they enjoy it enough they will become a fan and buy the next game in the series new, buy dlc, ect ect. Look at game series. the first one come out hardly ever sells more then the next one in line

#36 Edited by Kenocratic (104 posts) -

Having the same company be the developer and publisher like Rockstar for many of their games allow them to make more money? Not sure but sounds like it. But most companies can't do that because maybe it costs to much like high startup expenses to have both within the same organization.

But I guess that doesn't address the OP's follow up statement that high prices to the consumers (us) are hurting the industry. Not that I agree with it, not sure at this point about that. I know that when I really want a game I've always grudgingly paid some high price for it after I couldn't find a cheaper copy and everyone else had to pay the same as me.

#37 Edited by Zuzuvela (2148 posts) -

How is it that although Video Games are getting more and more popular in terms of the mainstream audience, everything seems to be crippling the industry? (Pre-owned, piracy, DLC etc)

And also, if the devs are that worried that they arent making enough sales to be sustainable, maybe they scale back the costs of making it or maybe try anything else then following the same model than complaining about these things they should've taken into account when making the game

#38 Posted by firefox59 (4433 posts) -

@GalvatronType_R said:

Used games are like games cause violence. Like the mainstream media saying games cause deaths, used games is the boogeyman that the industry likes to use as a blanket excuse for their ineptitude and careless spending without any evidence whatsoever.

Let me be clear: THERE IS NOT ONE STUDY OR ANY PROOF ANYWHERE THAT USED GAMES HAVE HARMED THE INDUSTRY.

Something doesn't have to be explicitly proven to be accepted as truth. It is impossible to deny that used games sales have taken away money from the people making the games and hence hurting the industry.

#39 Edited by HipHopBeats (2933 posts) -

The industry is what's crippling the industry. Too much focus on greedy politics instead of cranking out worthwhile games. They need to stop with the season pass and microtransactions bullshit and quit hyping up disappointments like Bioshock Infinite and Ryse.

If devs made better quality games, with more focus on gameplay over graphics, people wouldn't be so quick to trade them in. I already see used copies of Killzone Shadowfall and Forza 5 in gaming stores and it's only been about a month since launch.

#40 Edited by Jacanuk (5448 posts) -

@GalvatronType_R said:

Used games are like games cause violence. Like the mainstream media saying games cause deaths, used games is the boogeyman that the industry likes to use as a blanket excuse for their ineptitude and careless spending without any evidence whatsoever.

Let me be clear: THERE IS NOT ONE STUDY OR ANY PROOF ANYWHERE THAT USED GAMES HAVE HARMED THE INDUSTRY.

Well, you do not need a study to see that the billion $ industry used games is, are money the developers/publishers is losing out on.

But the problem here is that you cannot know if the people buying used would actually buy new, soso there is more to it, also used games is not like "games causes violence" which also has more to it than just that

#41 Edited by iHarlequin (1789 posts) -

No, it isn't. The gaming industry is bigger than it's ever been and it is growing - publishers spread myths concerning piracy, borrowed games, DRM and DLC in order to justify tighter control over their product and reduced ownership by the person who buys the game. The only ones getting crippled are the consumers, who get less of the software they buy year by year - I wouldn't be surprised if, soon, games became tied to a single console, preventing re-sales and even borrowing.

Do not favor companies over consumers, SPECIALLY when the first are in the wrong.

#42 Edited by Gargus (2147 posts) -

Used books, used cd's, used cars, used tools, used electronics, used dvds, used furniture, and well......used everything.

If used products actually hurt their respective industry then how come video games are the ONLY industry that complains about them? Billions are lost every year in used car sales but you don't hear Toyota constantly on a rant about how they are losing money do you? What about books? There are used book stores everywhere, amazon has hundreds of thousands of used books on it right now, hell the god damn library lets people use books for free. Flea markets, goodwill and ebay alone would be the direct cause of thousands of industries closures everyday if used products actually hurt their industry.

http://youtu.be/0Qkyt1wXNlI

See what neil gaiman has to say.

#43 Edited by GalvatronType_R (1878 posts) -

@firefox59 said:
@GalvatronType_R said:

Used games are like games cause violence. Like the mainstream media saying games cause deaths, used games is the boogeyman that the industry likes to use as a blanket excuse for their ineptitude and careless spending without any evidence whatsoever.

Let me be clear: THERE IS NOT ONE STUDY OR ANY PROOF ANYWHERE THAT USED GAMES HAVE HARMED THE INDUSTRY.

Something doesn't have to be explicitly proven to be accepted as truth. It is impossible to deny that used games sales have taken away money from the people making the games and hence hurting the industry.

"Something doesn't have to be explicitly proven to be accepted as truth." Wow, just wow. I don't know how to respond to that nugget of wisdom.

To reiterate: there is not a shred of evidence that used games have harmed developers and publishers. Used games have existed since the beginning of the industry and last I checked, the game industry makes more money every console generation and now makes more money than the movie industry (which doesn't whine about used DVD and BD sales) so I don't see how used games are poisoning the industry.

Also, used consoles and gaming PCs get bought and sold all the time. Why don't Sony, Microsoft, Nintendo, and the PC makers whine about that? Isn't that as harmful as used games?

Lastly, anyone who thinks buying anything used is the same as stealing or piracy is too stupid to even be dignified with a response.

#44 Edited by LJS9502_basic (151908 posts) -

Maybe if devs didn't charge so much for a copy of the game more people would buy it new. But they do...and then you have resales. Which help the devs because person A gets money for a game he bought and then he takes that money and buys another new game.

Taking away used games means no one could play older games not in circulation anymore and means less new games sold.

Neither of which help the industry.

#45 Edited by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

ROFL

I still don't get it -- in which la-la land that you live in do people who bought a product not have the right to sell it in most cases?

Cars cost considerably more than games, and they don't get a dime from used sales. In fact, that's not true, it could be argued they MAKE money from used sales seeing as a happy used buyer may become a new buyer. This mindset that the consumer owes the manufacturer of anything money twice is the biggest pile of bullshit I've ever heard.

To the thread creator: have you sent the developers of the games you've traded in money every time you've traded a game?