Playstation Vs. Nintendo 64 Vs. Sega Saturn Vs. 3DO Vs. Atari Jaguar! Consolewar

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Because some adventure game fans don't consider VN's to be "true" adventure games... kind of like how some WRPG fans don't consider JRPG's to be "true" RPG's.

Jag85

I think it's important here to make a distinction between text adventure games and choose-your-own-adventure books... The former focused more on exploration and puzzle-solving gameplay, while the latter focused more on interactive storytelling.

Both point & click adventures and VN's had roots in text adventure games. However, the difference is that while point & click adventures evolved the exploration and puzzle-solving gameplay of text adventures, VN's instead began streamlining the gameplay and importing the interactive storytelling elements of choose-your-own-adventure books,

So, in a sense, VN's are like a cross between text adventure games and choose-your-own-adventure books.

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

 

As for Half-Life, that sold significantly more than any PC FPS before it, so is it just a mere coincidence that this only happened after GoldenEye came along? Just looking at the sales, the difference between GoldenEye and every FPS before it (PC or console) is like night and day, with the sales of GoldenEye completely dwarfing the likes of Doom, Quake, and Duke Nukem. And yet Half-Life's sales figures are more in line with GoldenEye than it is with PC FPS's before it, so is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that GE's mainstream success played a role in Half-Life's mainstream success?

Jag85

Wow. You do talk some utter twaddle sometimes.

I've never played Goldeneye or Perfect Dark, yet i still had to get Half-Life based on the fact it was a decent FPS like Unreal was, and Quake was, and Doom was. Half-Life's success was built on the fact that when it was released it didn't require a mega-PC for the period to run. And it was hyped to death in the PC magazines. Consoles didn't influence PC gamers in that period, we had enough decent games of our own.

So yes, for the sake of your fabricated 'point', it was coincidence.

Okay, let me spell it out for you...

Doom (1993) - 1.1 million

Doom II (1994) - 2 million

Quake (1996) - 1.7 million

Quake II (1997) - 1 million

GoldenEye 007 (1997) - 8 million

Unreal (1998) - 1 million

Half-Life (1998) - 8 million

Don't you see the huge difference between the sales of Half-Life and previous PC FPS games? Even if all the Doom, Quake and Unreal fans combined brought Half-Life, that still wouldn't cover even half of Half-Life's sales. The only previous FPS game that sold as much as Half-Life was GoldenEye 007...

Since we know GE introduced millions of console gamers to the FPS genre, what makes you think many of those same console gamers wouldn't have later been interested in trying out PC FPS games like Half-Life? What makes you think there was never any overlap between the console and PC gaming audiences at the time? 

And finally, for the sake of your fabricated 'coincidence', how else did Half-Life outsell previous PC FPS games by such a huge margin? 

My point of your twaddle stands.

PC gamers didn't give af about console games in those days. Half-Life succeeded due to advertising, favourable reviews, word of mouth, compelling atmosphere and great gameplay. And because it was an FPS which was one of the core PC genres of the period. If you want to believe that a Nintendo game has anything to do with that then you do so. It would be lovely if you could accept that your opinion is just that; an opinion and not reality.

The Half-Life figure you produced was up to December 2004; 6 years after PC release, 3 years after PS2 release. You also failed to mention that Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem were all released initially as Shareware which went some way to limiting sales. Most people never upgraded the shareware episodes and just waited for the budget full-releases in shops a couple of years later.

I'm sure in your own defence you'll make up some more nonsense to make people see things your way, as usual.

Good luck with that. ;)

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"] Giantbomb, Database entries with release dates, everything you're not looking at.

Rainbow Six is influence by completely different games, and is pioneering a completely different type of Shooter. It's a tactical shooter not a regular FPS. It could be TP and have the same gameplay. FPS games were selling less and less, games after GE were not selling Millions, they were selling less and less, even some PC shooters were selling less and less, although for different reasons. Halo made it standard, made the gaming industry tri billion in worth, it had FPS games making tons of money and many developers were selling well, and incidentally, that edned with COD popularity, which was also based off Halo in the first place.Jakandsigz

I just checked out Giant Bomb... and all it shows is Halo 1 and GE both releasing in the same four regions (UK, US, AU, JP). So once again, where is your evidence that Halo 1 released in more regions than GE did?

Rainbow Six is a tactical FPS. Medal of Honour is an FPS. Perfect Dark is an FPS. Half-Life 2 is an FPS. All of these games sold millions after GE. So where are you getting this idea that the FPS genre declined after GE and Halo revived it? There was no decline in the first place. All that happened is Halo made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was, just as Modern Warfare made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was in Halo's time.

Why do you keep ignoring Medal of Honor every time I mention it? And like I said before, Rainbow Six is a tactical FPS, i.e. first-person tactical shooter, so it still counts as FPS. And along with Perfect Dark and Half-Life, and other FPS games I might be missing here, there is nothing to suggest that FPS games declined after GE at all, but if anything, the evidence shows that FPS games were increasing in popularity after GE. Halo didn't "revive" the genre, but what it did is simply increase its popularity.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"] All you showed was that PC FPS sold less after GE. Half-life's 8 million was made during it's long shelf life and MULTIPLATS!!!!!!!!!Jakandsigz

Okay, so you're saying the PS2 console port was partly responsible for those high sales figures? In that case, aren't you just proving my point? 

How?

Because then that would make Half-Life yet another game to add to the list of console FPS games that sold millions after GE...

PC gamers didn't give af about console games in those days. Half-Life succeeded due to advertising, favourable reviews, word of mouth, compelling atmosphere and great gameplay. And because it was an FPS which was one of the core PC genres of the period. If you want to believe that a Nintendo game has anything to do with that then you do so. It would be lovely if you could accept that your opinion is just that; an opinion and not reality.

The Half-Life figure you produced was up to December 2004; 6 years after PC release, 3 years after PS2 release. You also failed to mention that Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem were all released initially as Shareware which went some way to limiting sales. Most people never upgraded the shareware episodes and just waited for the budget full-releases in shops a couple of years later.

BarbaricAvatar

Firstly, PC gamers not giving an F about console games has nothing to do with what I was saying. What I'm talking about is the opposite: console gamers giving an F about PC games. Before GE, most console gamers were not interested in FPS games. After GE, more console gamers became interested in the genre, and since most FPS games were on PC, what makes you think those post-GE console FPS fans wouldn't have been interested in trying out PC FPS games? Are you telling me you, or anyone you know, never used to play games on both PC and consoles at the time? 

Secondly, you failed to mention that their sequels, Doom II and Quake II, were not released as shareware, yet their combined sales were still barely a fraction of what Half-Life sold.

And finally, even if GE had nothing to do with HL's success on PC and none of the post-GE console FPS fans ever gave an F about PC FPS games... the fact that the Half-Life sales figure also includes console sales only reinforces my point, that a lot of post-GE console FPS fans also brought copies of the game.

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

Okay, so you're saying the PS2 console port was partly responsible for those high sales figures? In that case, aren't you just proving my point? 

Jag85

How?

Because then that would make Half-Life yet another game to add to the list of console FPS games that sold millions after GE...

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

I just checked out Giant Bomb... and all it shows is Halo 1 and GE both releasing in the same four regions (UK, US, AU, JP). So once again, where is your evidence that Halo 1 released in more regions than GE did?

Rainbow Six is a tactical FPS. Medal of Honour is an FPS. Perfect Dark is an FPS. Half-Life 2 is an FPS. All of these games sold millions after GE. So where are you getting this idea that the FPS genre declined after GE and Halo revived it? There was no decline in the first place. All that happened is Halo made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was, just as Modern Warfare made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was in Halo's time.

Jag85

Why do you keep ignoring Medal of Honor every time I mention it? And like I said before, Rainbow Six is a tactical FPS, i.e. first-person tactical shooter, so it still counts as FPS. And along with Perfect Dark and Half-Life, and other FPS games I might be missing here, there is nothing to suggest that FPS games declined after GE at all, but if anything, the evidence shows that FPS games were increasing in popularity after GE. Halo didn't "revive" the genre, but what it did is simply increase its popularity.

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

PC gamers didn't give af about console games in those days. Half-Life succeeded due to advertising, favourable reviews, word of mouth, compelling atmosphere and great gameplay. And because it was an FPS which was one of the core PC genres of the period. If you want to believe that a Nintendo game has anything to do with that then you do so. It would be lovely if you could accept that your opinion is just that; an opinion and not reality.

The Half-Life figure you produced was up to December 2004; 6 years after PC release, 3 years after PS2 release. You also failed to mention that Doom, Quake and Duke Nukem were all released initially as Shareware which went some way to limiting sales. Most people never upgraded the shareware episodes and just waited for the budget full-releases in shops a couple of years later.

Jag85

Firstly, PC gamers not giving an F about console games has nothing to do with what I was saying. What I'm talking about is the opposite: console gamers giving an F about PC games. Before GE, most console gamers were not interested in FPS games. After GE, more console gamers became interested in the genre, and since most FPS games were on PC, what makes you think those post-GE console FPS fans wouldn't have been interested in trying out PC FPS games? Are you telling me you, or anyone you know, never used to play games on both PC and consoles at the time? 

Secondly, you failed to mention that their sequels, Doom II and Quake II, were not released as shareware, yet their combined sales were still barely a fraction of what Half-Life sold.

And finally, even if GE had nothing to do with HL's success on PC and none of the post-GE console FPS fans ever gave an F about PC FPS games... the fact that the Half-Life sales figure also includes console sales only reinforces my point, that a lot of post-GE console FPS fans also brought copies of the game.

Jakandsigz, you are the one who keeps claiming that the FPS genre was declining after GE, yet every time I point out an FPS that sold very well after GE, you keep making excuses like "it's a tactical shooter, not FPS", "it has nothing to do with GE", "it was not influenced by GE", etc., all of which are just red herrings...

The actual point is that there were plenty of FPS games that sold millions after GE, completely contradicting your claim that FPS games were declining after GE and had to be "revived" by Halo. Halo didn't "revive" anything, but it simply made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was.

Jakandsigz, you are the one who keeps claiming that the FPS genre was declining after GE, yet every time I point out an FPS that sold very well after GE, you keep making excuses like "it's a tactical shooter, not FPS", "it has nothing to do with GE", "it was not influenced by GE", etc., all of which are just red herrings...

The actual point is that there were plenty of FPS games that sold millions after GE, completely contradicting your claim that FPS games were declining after GE and had to be "revived" by Halo. Halo didn't "revive" anything, but it simply made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was.

Jag85

Firstly, PC gamers not giving an F about console games has nothing to do with what I was saying. Jag85

Only because you've changed that sentiment since your original statement in order to fit your furious backpeddling to cover your R's.

I wouldn't have gotten involved if you hadn't made such a stupid statement about PC Gamers of the period being influenced by an effing Nintendo shooter of all things.

Are you telling me you, or anyone you know, never used to play games on both PC and consoles at the time? 

A few of us had consoles, i myself had a PS1, but FPS gaming on that was a novelty at best. No one i knew ever had a Nintendo, the shooters that influenced us were the ones that had gone before on the PC.

Secondly, you failed to mention that their sequels, Doom II and Quake II, were not released as shareware, yet their combined sales were still barely a fraction of what Half-Life sold.

So what? Half-Life was widely regarded as the best FPS of all time, if you're new to a genre then you start with the best to be sure whether you'll like it or not. Doom and Quake had very dark themes and fantastical settings, Half-Life had scientists, security guards and a test facility. Gamers who preferred reality over fantasy suddenly had the FPS they'd been hoping for. All of which has got nothing to do with your initial statement.

And finally, even if GE had nothing to do with HL's success on PC and none of the post-GE console FPS fans ever gave an F about PC FPS games... the fact that the Half-Life sales figure also includes console sales only reinforces my point, that a lot of post-GE console FPS fans also brought copies of the game.

:lol: You could argue then that Diablo influenced Final Fantasy 7 because they both happen to be RPG's. Diablo came first so that must mean FF took direct inspiration from it by your logic, and everyone who bought FF7 on the PS1 was because they enjoyed Diablo on the PC.

Keep going, you're hilarious.

And completely and utterly wrong in every regard. Let's see how your inferiority complex copes with that... ;)

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

Jakandsigz, you are the one who keeps claiming that the FPS genre was declining after GE, yet every time I point out an FPS that sold very well after GE, you keep making excuses like "it's a tactical shooter, not FPS", "it has nothing to do with GE", "it was not influenced by GE", etc., all of which are just red herrings...

The actual point is that there were plenty of FPS games that sold millions after GE, completely contradicting your claim that FPS games were declining after GE and had to be "revived" by Halo. Halo didn't "revive" anything, but it simply made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was.

Jakandsigz

Some of the first-person shooters that sold millions after GoldenEye...

• Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) - 1.86 million
• Perfect Dark (N64) - 2.52 million
• South Park (N64) - 1.14 million
• Rainbow Six (PS1 & N64) - 2.28 million
• Medal of Honor (PS1) - 2.67 million
• Half-Life (PC & PS2) - 8 million
• Counter-Strike (PC) - 4.2 million
• Unreal (PC) - 1 million
• Unreal Tournament (PC) - 1 million

Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

• Doom (PC) - 1.1 million
• Doom II (PC) - 2 million
• Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million
• Quake (PC) - 1.7 million
• Quake II (PC) - 1 million

...If you seriously think GE played no part in popularizing FPS games on consoles, then how do you explain the fact there there wasn't even a single console FPS game that sold a million copies before GE? How do you explain the fact that we only started to see million-selling console FPS games after GE and not before it? 

Like I already said time and time again, GE made the genre more mainstream and then Halo made the genre even more popular. In GE's time, console FPS games would sell in the region of 1-3 million, and then they started to sell in the region of 2-7 million in Halo's time, and now console FPS games sell in the region of 5-10 milion in COD's time. It's not so difficult to understand, mate.

Only because you've changed that sentiment since your original statement in order to fit your furious backpeddling to cover your R's.

I wouldn't have gotten involved if you hadn't made such a stupid statement about PC Gamers of the period being influenced by an effing Nintendo shooter of all things.

BarbaricAvatar

Since your reading comprehension is clearly not very good, my "original statement" was hardly a "statement" at all, but just a series of questions. Nice try at twisting my words... Once again, resorting to cheap personal attacks and straw man arguements just to make yourself feel better. That just reeks of desperation, mate.

Like I said before, my argument was that many of the console FPS fans who played GE would have also also ended up playing Half-Life later on... It's not rocket science, mate.

And for the record, the PC FPS games that started incorporating things like headshots and sniper scopes were indeed influenced by that "effing" Rare (or "Nintendo") FPS game you seem to despise so much...

A few of us had consoles, i myself had a PS1, but FPS gaming on that was a novelty at best. No one i knew ever had a Nintendo, the shooters that influenced us were the ones that had gone before on the PC.

So what? Half-Life was widely regarded as the best FPS of all time, if you're new to a genre then you start with the best to be sure whether you'll like it or not. Doom and Quake had very dark themes and fantastical settings, Half-Life had scientists, security guards and a test facility. Gamers who preferred reality over fantasy suddenly had the FPS they'd been hoping for. All of which has got nothing to do with your initial statement.

BarbaricAvatar

Good for you, but the problem is that, like many PC elitists, you seem to be under the false impression that you are somehow representative of all PC gamers or all PC FPS fans... You're not.

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later PC FPS games... You can keep believing that if you want, but in your own words, "It would be lovely if you could accept that your opinion is just that; an opinion and not reality."

 

You could argue then that Diablo influenced Final Fantasy 7 because they both happen to be RPG's. Diablo came first so that must mean FF took direct inspiration from it by your logic, and everyone who bought FF7 on the PS1 was because they enjoyed Diablo on the PC. 

Keep going, you're hilarious.

And completely and utterly wrong in every regard. Let's see how your inferiority complex copes with that... ;)

BarbaricAvatar

GoldenEye came out well over a year before Half-Life... Diablo only came out one month before FFVII...

Once again, in your own words, "Keep going, you're hilarious." ;)

EDIT:

Funny thing is, now that you mention it... I did actually play Diablo just months before getting FFVII... I saw FFVII hyped up a lot in a local gaming magazine and became curious to try out an RPG, and so I got Diablo for my PC and enjoyed it, before eventually getting FFVII and enjoying that even more. Strange how that worked out.

Doom (PC) - 1.1 million

Jag85

To keep things fair, those sales are only of the online, registered version released on their servers in '93. They don't even come close at covering the gigantic wave of ports, Steam, 360 Arcade, and the first retail version released in '95.

Not to mention the fact that one third of Doom was shareware, played by more than 10 million people, and that later it was installed on more computers than Windows in '95, which is a feat to behold.

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

Jakandsigz, you are the one who keeps claiming that the FPS genre was declining after GE, yet every time I point out an FPS that sold very well after GE, you keep making excuses like "it's a tactical shooter, not FPS", "it has nothing to do with GE", "it was not influenced by GE", etc., all of which are just red herrings...

The actual point is that there were plenty of FPS games that sold millions after GE, completely contradicting your claim that FPS games were declining after GE and had to be "revived" by Halo. Halo didn't "revive" anything, but it simply made the FPS genre even more popular than it already was.

Jag85

Some of the first-person shooters that sold millions after GoldenEye...

Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) - 1.86 million

Perfect Dark (N64) - 2.52 million

South Park (N64) - 1.14 million

Rainbow Six (PS1 & N64) - 2.28 million

Medal of Honor (PS1) - 2.67 million

Half-Life (PC & PS2) - 8 million

Counter-Strike (PC) - 4.2 million

Unreal (PC) - 1 million

Unreal Tournament (PC) - 1 million

Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

Doom (PC) - 1.1 million

Doom II (PC) - 2 million

Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million

Quake (PC) - 1.7 million

Quake II (PC) - 1 million

...If you seriously think GE played no part in popularizing FPS games on consoles, then how do you explain the fact there there wasn't even a single console FPS game that sold a million copies before GE? How do you explain the fact that we only started to see million-selling FPS games after GE and not before it? 

Like I already said time and time again, GE made the genre more mainstream and then Halo made the genre even more popular. In GE's time, console FPS games would sell in the region of 1-3 million, and then they started to sell in the region of 2-7 million in Halo's time, and now console FPS games sell in the region of 5-10 milion in COD's time. It's not so difficult to understand, mate.

...And after that long rant, you've still failed to address the main point:

If you seriously think GE played no part in popularizing FPS games on consoles, then how do you explain the fact there there wasn't even a single console FPS game that sold a million copies before GE? How do you explain the fact that we only started to see million-selling FPS games after GE and not before it?Jag85

Well, do you have an answer for that? Can you name a single console FPS before GoldenEye that sold a million copies? And yet you expect me to believe that GoldenEye did not help popularize FPS games on consoles? 

...And after that long rant, you've still failed to address the main point:

[quote="Jag85"]

FPS after GE sold less after its intial success.Jakandsigz

After Goldeneye FPS games dropped and not one came close to it until Halo, which sparked the genre back up,Jakandsigz

GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either, it had a success that died off later on rather quickly,Jakandsigz

If you seriously think GE played no part in popularizing FPS games on consoles, Jag85

GE was popular, but it didn't launch the genre into the massive mainstream bringing in billions of dollarsJakandsigz

FPS after GE sold less after its intial success.Jakandsigz

After Goldeneye FPS games dropped and not one came close to it until Halo, which sparked the genre back up,Jakandsigz

GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either, it had a success that died off later on rather quickly,Jakandsigz

It's funny how you keep accusing me of being a "hypocrite" and " changing things around to suit your wrong opinion," when in fact that's what you've been doing from the very start...

[QUOTE="Jag85"][QUOTE="MrYaotubo"] FPS´s were already mainstream(and of higher quality) before G64,and if you´re talking about consoles then Halo was the one that made the difference.Jakandsigz

While GE did Outsell Halo unless you don't include those certain bundle packs, it was not that far off, and Halo 2 ended up making Halo the standard for console FPS. GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either, it had a success that died off later on rather quickly, and it was not until Halo where the genre actually hit many markets with success and people went crazy trying to cash-in, making it the leading genre this entire gen.

Here you claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." After I proved otherwise, you then never raised this point again.

And more importantly, you claimed that "GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either." And after I proved otherwise, you are now claiming that you never made that claim in the first place, but are instead changing your tone to make it sound like I'm the one who changed my argument. Funny.

It's funny how you keep accusing me of being a "hypocrite" and " changing things around to suit your wrong opinion," when in fact that's what you've been doing from the very start...

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"] Before GoldenEye, FPS games were only mainstream on PC, not consoles. Quality is subjective, but when GoldenEye came out, many critics hailed it as the greatest FPS released up until that time. And finally, GoldenEye outsold Halo, so how can Halo be the one that made the difference when GoldenEye already outsold it four years before it? GoldenEye was the game that popularized FPS games on consoles.Jag85

While GE did Outsell Halo unless you don't include those certain bundle packs, it was not that far off, and Halo 2 ended up making Halo the standard for console FPS. GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either, it had a success that died off later on rather quickly, and it was not until Halo where the genre actually hit many markets with success and people went crazy trying to cash-in, making it the leading genre this entire gen.

Here you claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." After I proved otherwise, you then never raised this point again.

And more importantly, you claimed that "GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either." And after I proved otherwise, you are now claiming that you never made that claim in the first place, but are instead changing your tone to make it sound like I'm the one who changed my argument. Funny.

it was not until Halo where the genre actually hit many markets with success and people went crazy trying to cash-in, making it the leading genre this entire gen.

FPS were also not Mainstream on consoles. After Goldeneye FPS games dropped and not one came close to it until Halo, which sparked the genre back up

FPS after GE sold less after its intial success.[.quote] nothing was changed, those are all at the very start of this at the beginning.

I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that Visual Novels don't have any "gameplay"... The fact that VN's allow you to make choices, whether it's choosing what to say, deciding where to go, what action to take, which "route" to take through the narrative, or which ending to work towards, these all count as forms of "gameplay". In fact, VN narratives are usually significantly more non-linear than adventure games, where the plots are usually quite linear in order to focus more on puzzle-solving and exploration, whereas VN's focus more on interactive storytelling.Jag85

Visual Novels have no gameplay, you are talking about Adventure games.

Visual Novels are exactly what they sound like, pictures come up on the screen with text, you read the text and the picture changes telling a story, they are not adventure games, there is no choice, there is no input, they are visualnovels.

I can't think of any Visual Novels released outside of Japan, there are loads on Japanese CD consoles.

On the other hand there are numerous Adventure games on western consoles.

Since your reading comprehension is clearly not very good, my "original statement" was hardly a "statement" at all, but just a series of questions. Nice try at twisting my words... Once again, resorting to cheap personal attacks and straw man arguements just to make yourself feel better. That just reeks of desperation, mate.Jag85

The only person twisting your words is you, in every discussion you've got going right now you've moved on past your initial cobblers to adapt and change to every argument levelled at you. Such is your desperation to be right about everything ever.

I call a shovel a shovel, and you're an idiot who doesn't know enough about PC gaming to offer an educated opinion. The end.

And for the record, the PC FPS games that started incorporating things like headshots and sniper scopes were indeed influenced by that "effing" Rare (or "Nintendo") FPS game you seem to despise so much...

:lol: I hate Halo more, but you didn't claim that influenced PC Gamers to buy Half-Life. And just so you're aware, the first game to do something isn't always the influence for later games. The 'modern' sniper rifle was borne from MDK. Obviously you didn't know that because you were too busy worshipping GoldenEye.

Good for you, but the problem is that, like many PC elitists, you seem to be under the false impression that you are somehow representative of all PC gamers or all PC FPS fans... You're not.

:lol: I'd rather be a PC elitist than a closed-minded moron who believes Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life.

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later PC FPS games...

OMG you mean no one ever tried to make a modern-style FPS before Goldeneye?! I don't have as much free time as you, be a good lad and toddle off to Wikipedia and the whole internet to find one. I'm sure you'll fit it in between searching for technical details of Toy Story vs FF7. ;)

You can keep believing that if you want, but in your own words, "It would be lovely if you could accept that your opinion is just that; an opinion and not reality."

Except on this subject regarding PC games of the late 90's, of the two of us you're a peasant and i'm the king.

Funny thing is, now that you mention it... I did actually play Diablo just months before getting FFVII... I saw FFVII hyped up a lot in a local gaming magazine and became curious to try out an RPG, and so I got Diablo for my PC and enjoyed it, before eventually getting FFVII and enjoying that even more. Strange how that worked out.

Yes, strange how you just suddenly made-up this 'fact' to support your argument. I had a dog once who played Goldeneye every day via telepathy, he told me that the movement of the hat-people was based entirely on Hitler from Wolfenstein on the PC. True story.

If i want to know what Wikipedia says about how many copies Mario Kart sold in 2007, or who the blonde fellow in some random JRPG was thinking about in November, then i know where to come. But for PC gaming, i'd get more sense out of A48.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

It's funny how you keep accusing me of being a "hypocrite" and " changing things around to suit your wrong opinion," when in fact that's what you've been doing from the very start...

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"] Because Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not.

While GE did Outsell Halo unless you don't include those certain bundle packs, it was not that far off, and Halo 2 ended up making Halo the standard for console FPS. GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either, it had a success that died off later on rather quickly, and it was not until Halo where the genre actually hit many markets with success and people went crazy trying to cash-in, making it the leading genre this entire gen.Jakandsigz

Here you claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." After I proved otherwise, you then never raised this point again.

And more importantly, you claimed that "GE was not the game that popularized FPS on consoles either." And after I proved otherwise, you are now claiming that you never made that claim in the first place, but are instead changing your tone to make it sound like I'm the one who changed my argument. Funny.

Also funny, the very first posts I made which I quoted had me saying that GE was popular but it did not bring FPS to the "mainstream" please stop lying why are you lying?

You claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." Are you going to deny that you ever said that? 

And like I said before, if GoldenEye didn't bring console FPS games to the mainstream, then why are there only million-selling console FPS games after GoldenEye and not before it? 

[QUOTE="Jag85"]I'm not sure where you're getting this idea that Visual Novels don't have any "gameplay"... The fact that VN's allow you to make choices, whether it's choosing what to say, deciding where to go, what action to take, which "route" to take through the narrative, or which ending to work towards, these all count as forms of "gameplay". In fact, VN narratives are usually significantly more non-linear than adventure games, where the plots are usually quite linear in order to focus more on puzzle-solving and exploration, whereas VN's focus more on interactive storytelling.Domino_slayer

Visual Novels have no gameplay, you are talking about Adventure games.

Visual Novels are exactly what they sound like, pictures come up on the screen with text, you read the text and the picture changes telling a story, they are not adventure games, there is no choice, there is no input, they are visualnovels.

I can't think of any Visual Novels released outside of Japan, there are loads on Japanese CD consoles.

On the other hand there are numerous Adventure games on western consoles.

I assume you're not very familiar with visual novels? One of the most important mechanics of a visual novel is making decisions that impact the direction of a narrative. In other words, it's the video game equivalent of a choose-your-own-adventure book.

EDIT:

By the way, there is a term for the kind of "game" you're describing. It's called a "linear novel" or "kinetic novel", i.e. a kind of "visual novel" where you have no choices at all, but these are usually the exception rather than the norm. In contrast, most visual novels involve narrative choices, with the good ones usually having deeper narrative choices than most RPG's.

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]

[QUOTE="YoshiYogurt"] You again fail to provide an arguement as to how the saturn is better than the n64 or PS1. I don't see how I am a "Nintendo Fanboy" when I don't even have an N64. Provide a list of games that are better or even match up with N64 games...YoshiYogurt

if you don't have an N64, how do you know any game you might list, or have listed is good or not?

Ive played or own quite a few of the games you mentioned before and found some to be pretty boring for my tastes

by the logic previously applied by you , the N64 must be crap.

there is no choice, there is no input, they are visualnovels.Domino_slayer

The only person twisting your words is you, in every discussion you've got going right now you've moved on past your initial cobblers to adapt and change to every argument levelled at you. Such is your desperation to be right about everything ever.

BarbaricAvatar

I don't know you well enough, and I have no idea why you're so angry and/or appear to have some kind of personal grudge against me... but if you think I've "changed" my argument anywhere, then can you actually, you know, prove it? Can you show me any posts I've made in this thread that directly contradict each other? If not, then your accusations levelled against me are false and without basis.

I hate Halo more, but you didn't claim that influenced PC Gamers to buy Half-Life. And just so you're aware, the first game to do something isn't always the influence for later games. The 'modern' sniper rifle was borne from MDK. Obviously you didn't know that because you were too busy worshipping GoldenEye.

BarbaricAvatar

What the... How can Halo influence PC gamers to buy a game that came out four years before it? Just like that Diablo and FFVII analogy (even though both were released just a month apart), what is it with you and nonsensical analogies? 

And by the way, I had no idea MDK was an FPS... I clearly remember that game being a third-person shooter when I played it back in the late 90's... but since I'm clearly not a "true" PC gamer, what would I know, right? 

I'd rather be a PC elitist than a closed-minded moron who believes Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life.

BarbaricAvatar

Once again, where did I say "Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life"? Like I said time and time again, my argument was that many of the post-GE console FPS fans would have later went on to try out PC FPS games, yet you keep trying to twist it around to make it sound like I'm saying GE influenced the pre-existing PC FPS fanbase to get Half-Life. My argument was that GE helped win over new console "converts" to PC FPS games, not the other way around. Not once have you addressed my actual argument, but instead you keep on resorting to ad hominem attacks, time and time again.

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"] You didn't prove otherwise, Halo was a world wide hit. Many developers world wide saw halo and brought FPS experiences. It's arguable Crysis would not exist without Halo. It had a bigger impact workld wide. How did you prove that wrong? You didn't. It's funny how you try your hardest to deflect all those other things you said that were completely wrong.

Also funny, the very first posts I made which I quoted had me saying that GE was popular but it did not bring FPS to the "mainstream" please stop lying why are you lying?Jag85

You claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." Are you going to deny that you ever said that? 

And like I said before, if GoldenEye didn't bring console FPS games to the mainstream, then why are there only million-selling console FPS games after GoldenEye and not before it? 

Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

• Doom (PC) - 1.1 million
• Doom II (PC) - 2 million
• Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million
• Quake (PC) - 1.7 million
• Quake II (PC) - 1 million

Jag85

"Checkmate"? Oh really?

You claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." Are you going to deny that you ever said that? 

And like I said before, if GoldenEye didn't bring console FPS games to the mainstream, then why are there only million-selling console FPS games after GoldenEye and not before it?

Jag85

Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

• Doom (PC) - 1.1 million
• Doom II (PC) - 2 million
• Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million
• Quake (PC) - 1.7 million
• Quake II (PC) - 1 million

Jag85

I like you, Jakandsigz. You're a funny guy.

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

I hate Halo more(than goldeneye, clarification for Jag85), but you didn't claim that influenced PC Gamers to buy Half-Life. And just so you're aware, the first game to do something isn't always the influence for later games. The 'modern' sniper rifle was borne from MDK. Obviously you didn't know that because you were too busy worshipping GoldenEye.

Jag85

What the... How can Halo influence PC gamers to buy a game that came out four years before it? Just like that Diablo and FFVII analogy (even though both were released just a month apart), what is it with you and nonsensical analogies? 

And by the way, I had no idea MDK was an FPS... I clearly remember that game being a third-person shooter when I played it back in the late 90's... but since I'm clearly not a "true" PC gamer, what would I know, right? 

"Checkmate"? Oh really?

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

You claimed that "Halo was a worldwide hit, and GE was not." Are you going to deny that you ever said that? 

And like I said before, if GoldenEye didn't bring console FPS games to the mainstream, then why are there only million-selling console FPS games after GoldenEye and not before it?

Jag85

Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

• Doom (PC) - 1.1 million
• Doom II (PC) - 2 million
• Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million
• Quake (PC) - 1.7 million
• Quake II (PC) - 1 million

Jag85

I like you, Jakandsigz. You're a funny guy.

[QUOTE="Jag85"][QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

I hate Halo more(than goldeneye, clarification for Jag85), but you didn't claim that influenced PC Gamers to buy Half-Life. And just so you're aware, the first game to do something isn't always the influence for later games. The 'modern' sniper rifle was borne from MDK. Obviously you didn't know that because you were too busy worshipping GoldenEye.

Jakandsigz

What the... How can Halo influence PC gamers to buy a game that came out four years before it? Just like that Diablo and FFVII analogy (even though both were released just a month apart), what is it with you and nonsensical analogies? 

And by the way, I had no idea MDK was an FPS... I clearly remember that game being a third-person shooter when I played it back in the late 90's... but since I'm clearly not a "true" PC gamer, what would I know, right? 

Reading Comprehension Checkmate.

You just "Reading Comprehension Checkmated" yourself by overlooking the part I've just highlighted in bold...

As for that MDK comment, clearly I wasn't trying to be sarcastic at all...

I must say, this is kind of amusing. Keep on going.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="Jag85"]Now let's compare these to the best-selling first-person shooters before GoldenEye...

• Doom (PC) - 1.1 million
• Doom II (PC) - 2 million
• Duke Nukem 3D (PC) - 1.5 million
• Quake (PC) - 1.7 million
• Quake II (PC) - 1 million

Jakandsigz

I like you, Jakandsigz. You're a funny guy.

And did the console ports of those games sell a million copies? Nope, thought not...

Keep trying, keep trying... I'm sure you'll eventually find a contradiction in my posts somewhere. 

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

I'd rather be a PC elitist than a closed-minded moron who believes Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life.

Jag85

Once again, where did I say "Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life"? Like I said time and time again, my argument was that many of the post-GE console FPS fans would have later went on to try out PC FPS games, yet you keep trying to twist it around to make it sound like I'm saying GE influenced the pre-existing PC FPS fanbase to get Half-Life. My argument was that GE helped win over new console "converts" to PC FPS games, not the other way around. Not once have you addressed my actual argument, but instead you keep on resorting to ad hominem attacks, time and time again.

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later PC FPS games...Jag85

As for Half-Life, that sold significantly more than any PC FPS before it, so is it just a mere coincidence that this only happened after GoldenEye came along? Just looking at the sales, the difference between GoldenEye and every FPS before it (PC or console) is like night and day, with the sales of GoldenEye completely dwarfing the likes of Doom, Quake, and Duke Nukem. And yet Half-Life's sales figures are more in line with GoldenEye than it is with PC FPS's before it, so is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that GE's mainstream success played a role in Half-Life's mainstream success?Jag85

Either way, Perfect Dark wasn't the only console FPS game to sell millions after GE. In the post-GoldenEye era, PlayStation FPS games that followed it, like 007: Tomorrow Never Dies,(Not a FPS JAG)Jag85

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

I like you, Jakandsigz. You're a funny guy.

Jag85

And did the console ports of those games sell a million copies? Nope, thought not...

Keep trying, keep trying... I'm sure you'll eventually find a contradiction in my posts somewhere. 

[QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

The only person twisting your words is you, in every discussion you've got going right now you've moved on past your initial cobblers to adapt and change to every argument levelled at you. Such is your desperation to be right about everything ever.

Jag85

..but if you think I've "changed" my argument anywhere, then can you actually, you know, prove it? Can you show me any posts I've made in this thread that directly contradict each other? If not, then your accusations levelled against me are false and without basis.

See Jakandsigz response "checkmate number 3" above for list. (Thanks Jak)

I don't post in NES or Dreamcast topics because i've never played either system and only know what i've read about them on the internet which isn't actual experience.

You're unable to make this distinction and sincerely believe you know everything about everything and must 'correct' everyone when they say something that contradicts another persons opinion that you've read. You've wrecked a number of legitimate discussions with your poor attitude and lack of ultimate knowledge, and i'm not surprised the current state on the forums is "What's the best" or "x vs y". Because everytime a debate starts you have to jump in and tell everyone how wrong they are, even though you yourself can never admit when it's you talking tosh (like oooh.. this topic for example).

Call it a personal attack if you really want to play the victim all of a sudden rather than admitting you're wrong, I call it long overdue to be stated.

And by the way, I had no idea MDK was an FPS... I clearly remember that game being a third-person shooter when I played it back in the late 90's... but since I'm clearly not a "true" PC gamer, what would I know, right? 

:lol: It's not. But if you'd actually played the game you'd know that it has a first-person sniper scope, the core capabilities of which influenced a number of PC games that followed. See? You didn't know that.

Once again, where did I say "Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life"? Like I said time and time again, my argument was that many of the post-GE console FPS fans would have later went on to try out PC FPS games, yet you keep trying to twist it around to make it sound like I'm saying GE influenced the pre-existing PC FPS fanbase to get Half-Life. My argument was that GE helped win over new console "converts" to PC FPS games, not the other way around. Not once have you addressed my actual argument, but instead you keep on resorting to ad hominem attacks, time and time again.

I did actually address your initial argument, by saying it was a load of twaddle. That still stands.

[QUOTE="Jag85"][QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

I'd rather be a PC elitist than a closed-minded moron who believes Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life.

Jakandsigz

Once again, where did I say "Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life"? Like I said time and time again, my argument was that many of the post-GE console FPS fans would have later went on to try out PC FPS games, yet you keep trying to twist it around to make it sound like I'm saying GE influenced the pre-existing PC FPS fanbase to get Half-Life. My argument was that GE helped win over new console "converts" to PC FPS games, not the other way around. Not once have you addressed my actual argument, but instead you keep on resorting to ad hominem attacks, time and time again.

Checkmate number 3

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later PC FPS games...Jag85

Some of the first-person shooters that sold millions after GoldenEye...

Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) - 1.86 million
Perfect Dark (N64) - 2.52 million
South Park (N64) - 1.14 million
Rainbow Six (PS1 & N64) - 2.28 million
Medal of Honor (PS1) - 2.67 million
Half-Life (PC & PS2) - 8 million
Counter-Strike (PC) - 4.2 million
Unreal (PC) - 1 million
Unreal Tournament (PC) - 1 millionJag85

As for Half-Life, that sold significantly more than any PC FPS before it, so is it just a mere coincidence that this only happened after GoldenEye came along? Just looking at the sales, the difference between GoldenEye and every FPS before it (PC or console) is like night and day, with the sales of GoldenEye completely dwarfing the likes of Doom, Quake, and Duke Nukem. And yet Half-Life's sales figures are more in line with GoldenEye than it is with PC FPS's before it, so is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that GE's mainstream success played a role in Half-Life's mainstream success?Jag85

Either way, Perfect Dark wasn't the only console FPS game to sell millions after GE. In the post-GoldenEye era, PlayStation FPS games that followed it, like 007: Tomorrow Never Dies,(Not a FPS JAG)Jag85

Bottom quote is to remind people like BA that you have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. Just listing games defending GE without actually knowing about other games. You even though all 007 games of the era were FPS games clearly. :)

Okay, and where's the part where I claimed GoldenEye was "the influence" for Half-Life? Did you just "Reading Comprehension Checkmate" yourself again?

The only thing I might give you a point for is that last one. The game I was thinking of was The World Is Not Enough, but I ended up confusing it with Tomorrow Never Dies. Fair play to that, but you get zero points for everything else.

I don't post in NES or Dreamcast topics because i've never played either system and only know what i've read about them on the internet which isn't actual experience.

You're unable to make this distinction and sincerely believe you know everything about everything and must 'correct' everyone when they say something that contradicts another persons opinion that you've read. You've wrecked a number of legitimate discussions with your poor attitude and lack of ultimate knowledge, and i'm not surprised the current state on the forums is "What's the best" or "x vs y". Because everytime a debate starts you have to jump in and tell everyone how wrong they are, even though you yourself can never admit when it's you talking tosh (like oooh.. this topic for example).

Call it a personal attack if you really want to play the victim all of a sudden rather than admitting you're wrong, I call it long overdue to be stated.

BarbaricAvatar

Interesting.

It's not. But if you'd actually played the game you'd know that it has a first-person sniper scope, the core capabilities of which influenced a number of PC games that followed. See? You didn't know that.

No, I just found it a little odd that you think a TPS that wasn't a major hit had more of an impact on the FPS genre than an FPS that was a major hit, only because the former is a PC game and the latter is a console game?

EDIT: By the way, do you remember MDK having any position-dependent hit reactions like GoldenEye? I remember it having a sniper, but I certainly don't remember there being different reactions when you hit different body parts, besides the head. 

 

I did actually address your initial argument, by saying it was a load of twaddle. That still stands.

Okay.

[QUOTE="Jag85"]

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"] I gave you plenty of time to find what was buried in your flawed logic,. Those games have console ports, remember what you said before with Half-life PS2 sales. you are in a hole that you aren't going to be able to get out without digging.Jakandsigz

And did the console ports of those games sell a million copies? Nope, thought not...

Keep trying, keep trying... I'm sure you'll eventually find a contradiction in my posts somewhere. 

The PS1 version of Rainbow Six was a million-seller, as were the other console FPS games at the time I mentioned before.

Again, why is it that we only started seeing million-selling console FPS games after GE and not before it?

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

And did the console ports of those games sell a million copies? Nope, thought not...

Keep trying, keep trying... I'm sure you'll eventually find a contradiction in my posts somewhere. 

 

Jag85

The PS1 version of Rainbow Six was a million-seller, as were the other console FPS games at the time I mentioned before.

Again, why is it that we only started seeing million-selling console FPS games after GE and not before it?

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"]

And did the console ports of those games sell a million copies? Nope, thought not...

Keep trying, keep trying... I'm sure you'll eventually find a contradiction in my posts somewhere. 

 

Jag85

The PS1 version of Rainbow Six was a million-seller, as were the other console FPS games at the time I mentioned before.

Again, why is it that we only started seeing million-selling console FPS games after GE and not before it?

I remember it having a sniper, Jag85

[QUOTE="Jakandsigz"][QUOTE="Jag85"][QUOTE="BarbaricAvatar"]

I'd rather be a PC elitist than a closed-minded moron who believes Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life.

Jag85

Once again, where did I say "Goldeneye was the influence for Half-Life"? Like I said time and time again, my argument was that many of the post-GE console FPS fans would have later went on to try out PC FPS games, yet you keep trying to twist it around to make it sound like I'm saying GE influenced the pre-existing PC FPS fanbase to get Half-Life. My argument was that GE helped win over new console "converts" to PC FPS games, not the other way around. Not once have you addressed my actual argument, but instead you keep on resorting to ad hominem attacks, time and time again.

Checkmate number 3

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later PC FPS games...Jag85

Some of the first-person shooters that sold millions after GoldenEye...

Turok 2: Seeds of Evil (N64) - 1.86 million
Perfect Dark (N64) - 2.52 million
South Park (N64) - 1.14 million
Rainbow Six (PS1 & N64) - 2.28 million
Medal of Honor (PS1) - 2.67 million
Half-Life (PC & PS2) - 8 million
Counter-Strike (PC) - 4.2 million
Unreal (PC) - 1 million
Unreal Tournament (PC) - 1 millionJag85

As for Half-Life, that sold significantly more than any PC FPS before it, so is it just a mere coincidence that this only happened after GoldenEye came along? Just looking at the sales, the difference between GoldenEye and every FPS before it (PC or console) is like night and day, with the sales of GoldenEye completely dwarfing the likes of Doom, Quake, and Duke Nukem. And yet Half-Life's sales figures are more in line with GoldenEye than it is with PC FPS's before it, so is that just a coincidence, or is it more likely that GE's mainstream success played a role in Half-Life's mainstream success?Jag85

Either way, Perfect Dark wasn't the only console FPS game to sell millions after GE. In the post-GoldenEye era, PlayStation FPS games that followed it, like 007: Tomorrow Never Dies,(Not a FPS JAG)Jag85

Bottom quote is to remind people like BA that you have no idea what you are talking about most of the time. Just listing games defending GE without actually knowing about other games. You even though all 007 games of the era were FPS games clearly. :)

Okay, and where's the part where I claimed GoldenEye was "the influence" for Half-Life? Did you just "Reading Comprehension Checkmate" yourself again?

The only thing I might give you a point for is that last one. The game I was thinking of was The World Is Not Enough, but I ended up confusing it with Tomorrow Never Dies. Fair play to that, but you get zero points for everything else.

It's interesting how you bring up Half-Life's realistic setting as a selling point... because that was also what set GoldenEye apart from most previous FPS games. But for some reason, you seem to think GE's realistic setting had nothing to do with the realistic settings in later (HEY LOOK JAG>)PC FPS games...

No, I just found it a little odd that you think a TPS that wasn't a major hit had more of an impact on the FPS genre than an FPS that was a major hit, only because the former is a PC game and the latter is a console game?Jag85

The intention for the first few months of development was for the game to be an on-rails shooter similar to Sega's light gun game Virtua Cop;[24] GoldenEye's gas plant location was modelled by Karl Hilton with a predetermined path in mind.[7] Although GoldenEye is controlled with a pad rather than a light gun, Hollis credited Virtua Cop as an influence on the developers' adoption of features such as gun reloading, position-dependent hit reaction animations, penalties for killing innocent characters, and an alternative aiming system that is activated upon pressing the R button of the Nintendo 64 controller.[24]