Opinion pieces vs. Constructive journalism

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Foxfoxi

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#1 Foxfoxi
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

After reading the new Donkey Kong review, and earlier the Grand Theft Auto 5 review....It made me shudder at the idea of more people with "intense" opinions or expectations entering the editorial industry. God forbid we start letting (and this isn't a hate thread, I'm just going to be honest) Muslims, or Christians review games. People with intense, out of the mainstream views should be encouraged to leave that stuff at the door when they come into work. I wouldn't want some Atheist reviewing a game about Noah's Ark either, in fair play, it's all about mechanics and technical information, not a personal dialogue about what you currently believe.

If we start to allow personal opinions to be the soul reasoning to rating a game lower it leaves a completely open field for offense to rear it's ugly head.

Oh, this game is too sexist!

Oh, this game is too violent!

Oh, this game is an insult to my religion!

Oh, this game is too hard for me!

et cetera.

No one gives a damn about your personal philosophy that's often subject to erratic change. No one cares if the game is somehow blasphemous to your religion, or insulting to your ideas of gender equality, no one cares if you felt something was too hard (and this isn't a discussion of fair / broken gameplay, purely difficulty and the balance there-in).

We need to keep this down to a minimum and stop letting personal philosophy and ideals downplay the greater elements of games. GTA5 didn't deserve to be marked down because a transgender girl was insulted by the (and if you weren't expecting this from Rockstar, are you mental?) hilarious (and blatantly sarcastic) sexism (which ironically is pointed at both genders). No one cares if Mark had a hard time with the perfectly balanced DKC game, these are not valid reasons to start deducting points.

What if someone who believed violence was evil and against God had reviewed GTA5? Well the gameplay is phenomenal, graphics are unbelievable and truly pushing the standard for next-gen despite being on nearly 10 year old hardware, BUT, I prayed about it and God told me to give it 2 points lower on the scale because I find it personally offensive and quite frankly it has too much swearing and blood.

When is this BS going to stop? Who's going to call out Gamespot for this travesty? This is not about letting our personal opinions and philosophy drip into the reviews, it's about being honest, consistent and reviewing something with a pure sight of it's mechanisms and not the offense / challenge that you're incapable of moving beyond emotionally.

Leave out your preaching, get off your soapbox, this professional editorial service you're providing is no place for your quackery, leave that to your tumblr. I couldn't imagine someone who hates difficult games attempting to review Dark Souls, much like I couldn't imagine someone who's allergic or hates fish to eat at diner that exclusively serves fish.

Not sure if this has been discussed, I'm new here, cheers! Also, sorry if this is in the wrong location, let me know and I'll post someplace else.

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#2 barrybarryk
Member since 2012 • 488 Posts

If a reviewer thinks a game is too hard, violent or sexist, and decides to mark it down for that, it's absolutely no different to not liking the games art style or any other aspect of a game. Reviews are personal opinion, they always have been. Stop thinking a game you like deserves a higher score from a reviewer, it's their review and they can rate it however they see fit.

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#3  Edited By Foxfoxi
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

@barrybarryk said:

If a reviewer thinks a game is too hard, violent or sexist, and decides to mark it down for that, it's absolutely no different to not liking the games art style or any other aspect of a game. Reviews are personal opinion, they always have been. Stop thinking a game you like deserves a higher score from a reviewer, it's their review and they can rate it however they see fit.

Actually, you're completely incorrect. Reviews are meant to weigh, gauge and discuss the technical mechanisms that make up the product. Reviews are not completely personal and shouldn't be considered as such, that leaves the discussion completely open for all kinds of ridiculous propositions and ineffective editorials. What you are saying is that reviewers have the right, absolutely, to ignore the reality surrounding a situation and impose a series of personal beliefs or opinions that can be completely false, incorrect, and outright dishonest. By your standards you'd be ok if someone said Last of Us had horrible graphics, or the physics of Grand Theft Auto 5 were the worst in the industry. After all, it's just someones personal opinion right? It doesn't have to be accurate, honest or even discuss the game itself.

I could draw parallels between Dantes Inferno and the last Kirby game I played on my Gameboy Color, I suppose I could write an entire review that has absolutely nothing to do about the gameplay because in my personal opinion the discussions of the game would be better highlighted by a long winded and verbose explanation of a man that live between the years of 1265-1321 and his religious philosophy. How dare you attempt to discredit my review, it's totally my opinion that the best way to discuss this game is by going back and instead discussing a completely unrelated book. My review now warrants the same level of credibility as someone who spent countless hours playing, discussing and the technical merits of what makes up a specific graphic effect, why shaders do what they do, what polygon counts represent in game, or how UVW mapping and texturing work.

Also, when does an opinion become valid? Is it when I start the game, or when I complete the game? What if my opinion was the same, unchanged, from the first ten minutes of the game to the finished product? Now, it's my opinion that I can review games fully by simply completing the first level and not bothering with the rest. Are you going to argue my opinion is wrong?

This whole idea of things being personal, the whole idea behind "opinions" in professional journalism for products such as this lends itself to insanity. And at the end of the day, the reality is, opinions can be outright wrong, and completely false. They can even detour people away from the truth in favor of some personal agenda that we often personally exalt. What we need is constructive journalism that doesn't allow falsehoods or deception. I don't personally like metal music, but, while writing a review for an album released earlier this year I went out of my way to praise it on the merits that I knew it succeeded and I left my personal disgust for the genre at the door. Why? Because I'm capable of dividing my emotions and personal philosophy from the end product of someone else's work regardless if it doesn't emotionally intrigue me. I knew very well that the mix was incredible, that the production was top notch, that the instruments were being played by professionals and even that the vocals were sung loud, clear and engineered to perfection. That's what I wrote about, I didn't go out of my way to bash the album because it was full of content that I found repulsive, or even if the instruments, despite being masterfully played, were being played in a way I didn't like.

End of the day, people read reviews to hear what the hell the game does good, and what it does bad, how long it is, how good the graphics are, is the gameplay broken, is the audio engineering / composition up to par, how does the artificial intelligence work and what's the replay value.

Leave the personal critique at the door, no one gives a damn, and no one should give a damn.

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#4 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts

Stop calling them journalists and the problem is solved. These are not journalists. At best you can say they are enthusiast press, more accurately though, they are entertainment bloggers. Journalists don't sit around their home/office waiting on the government press releases to come in the mail. Games writers do... Journalists don't walk up to the scene of an accident and sign a timed exclusive NDA on the details of the victims. Games writers do...

I wish they'd mostly leave that opinion out too, but I respond by not reading their articles. If you stop reading their articles, eventually they will be replaced.

If people keep giving them attention and they keep bringing in money, they will continue to have a platform for their opinions.

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#5  Edited By deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts

@foxfoxi: That's where you're wrong. Almost every review of an entertainment product is about their personal opinion. When's the last time you read an audio album review where the writer examined the variation in frequency levels to make sure they were all mixed in the most commonly pleasing way. I'd bet never.

There are probably some audiophile forums where you might find someone who does review albums that way, but they aren't on any of the big music fan sites. You might find games reviewers that review like you're suggesting, but they aren't on any of the big game fan sites.

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#6  Edited By Jag85
Member since 2005 • 19382 Posts

GTA V got 9/10. DKC Returns 3D got 7/10. If these scores were given to movies, they'd be considered great movies.

Honestly, it's just sad how some fanboys are getting so upset over their favourite game not getting a perfect score. If a game's violence and misogyny would turn off a lot of female gamers, then yes, that's a valid reason for a critic not to give it a perfect score, whether fanboys like it or not.

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#7  Edited By Foxfoxi
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

@guynamedbilly said:

Stop calling them journalists and the problem is solved. These are not journalists. At best you can say they are enthusiast press, more accurately though, they are entertainment bloggers. Journalists don't sit around their home/office waiting on the government press releases to come in the mail. Games writers do... Journalists don't walk up to the scene of an accident and sign a timed exclusive NDA on the details of the victims. Games writers do...

I wish they'd mostly leave that opinion out too, but I respond by not reading their articles. If you stop reading their articles, eventually they will be replaced.

If people keep giving them attention and they keep bringing in money, they will continue to have a platform for their opinions.

That's where you're wrong. Almost every review of an entertainment product is about their personal opinion. When's the last time you read an audio album review where the writer examined the variation in frequency levels to make sure they were all mixed in the most commonly pleasing way. I'd bet never.

There are probably some audiophile forums where you might find someone who does review albums that way, but they aren't on any of the big music fan sites. You might find games reviewers that review like you're suggesting, but they aren't on any of the big game fan sites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GameSpot

See; Type of Site: Video Game Journalism

Also see; GameSpot is the world's leading source for Video Game Journalism.

You honestly, no offense, have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. These are game journalist, no doubt about it. Claiming an "entertainment blogger" position would be best suited for a non-paid critic who airs his / her personal opinion on a tumblr, or blog. This is a highly touted, and supposedly respected site that provides gaming editorials.

Journalist; A journalist collects, writes, and distributes news and other information.

Journalism; is a method of inquiry and literary style that aims to provide a service to the public by the dissemination and analysis of news and other information.

Also, how would I know which articles to read / not read if I didn't read them first? Talk about a catch 22 proposition.

And as for me being wrong, holy smokes, did you even read what I wrote? First off, I'm a journalist and editor for a decently large site that handles music reviews. I personally can tell you that you're full of it.

Secondly: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/albumreviews

Go read some of those reviews. Do they sound like complete opinion pieces to you? Or "audiophiles" discussing musical technique, frequency and timing? It's obviously the latter.

They go into metaphysical discussion of the writers philosophy, the technical merits of the writing, engineering and production and just about every facet anyone who's paying attention could want.

This is so obvious I can't believe I have to point this stuff out.

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Foxfoxi

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#8 Foxfoxi
Member since 2014 • 25 Posts

@Jag85 said:

GTA V got 9/10. DKC Returns 3D got 7/10. If these scores were given to movies, they'd be considered great movies.

Honestly, it's just sad how some fanboys are getting so upset over their favourite game not getting a perfect score. If a game's violence and misogyny would turn off a lot of female gamers, then yes, that's a valid reason for a critic not to give it a perfect score, whether fanboys like it or not.

They gave DKC a 6/10, not a 7/10. And how often do you see games ranked below 5? Almost never. The scale of rating is basically 5/10, and so no one would take anything below 5 seriously. The average rating for DKC is 8.5, and GS provided a review that's two and a half points below the average on a ten point scale, even more technically, it's truly a five point scale. That gap is immense, it's huge and should be noted that this is beyond moving out the mainstream, it's stunt journalism that is damaging a product and warranting so much attention Nintendo is making passive aggressive tweets about it.

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#9 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts

@foxfoxi: Your reading is so selective, you'd be well received among the people you're complaining about. I read the latest three reviews on Rolling Stone and yes, they are almost entirely opinion pieces. The Beck review being the only exception because they do try to describe the instrumentation there.

It doesn't matter what definition you type, when people see the word journalist, by and large it seems like people are expecting something objective. Maybe you should read further down the Wikipedia definition page for this part "Journalism has developed a variety of ethics and standards. While objectivity and a lack of bias are of primary concern and importance, more liberal types of journalism, such as advocacy journalism and activism, intentionally adopt a non-objective viewpoint."

Clearly, it's not uncommon for people to associate journalism with objectivity.

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#10 CarnageHeart
Member since 2002 • 18316 Posts

@foxfoxi said:

@Jag85 said:

GTA V got 9/10. DKC Returns 3D got 7/10. If these scores were given to movies, they'd be considered great movies.

Honestly, it's just sad how some fanboys are getting so upset over their favourite game not getting a perfect score. If a game's violence and misogyny would turn off a lot of female gamers, then yes, that's a valid reason for a critic not to give it a perfect score, whether fanboys like it or not.

They gave DKC a 6/10, not a 7/10. And how often do you see games ranked below 5? Almost never. The scale of rating is basically 5/10, and so no one would take anything below 5 seriously. The average rating for DKC is 8.5, and GS provided a review that's two and a half points below the average on a ten point scale, even more technically, it's truly a five point scale. That gap is immense, it's huge and should be noted that this is beyond moving out the mainstream, it's stunt journalism that is damaging a product and warranting so much attention Nintendo is making passive aggressive tweets about it.

Two point five points below the average score? GS are clearly monsters and they need to be stopped!

I don't get why some fanboys obsess over reviews. There are a wide range of games in the world and a wide range of gamers. All gamers don't feel the same way about all games nor should they.

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#11  Edited By Byshop  Moderator
Member since 2002 • 20504 Posts

@foxfoxi:

Another "Reiviews are not opinions" thread. Gee, what an original idea.

If you really want to discuss this, start by reading some of the many, many other threads on the topic.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/the-responsibility-of-the-journalist-31004623/

-Byshop

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#12  Edited By platinumking320
Member since 2003 • 668 Posts

@guynamedbilly said:

Stop calling them journalists and the problem is solved. These are not journalists. At best you can say they are enthusiast press, more accurately though, they are entertainment bloggers. Journalists don't sit around their home/office waiting on the government press releases to come in the mail. Games writers do... Journalists don't walk up to the scene of an accident and sign a timed exclusive NDA on the details of the victims. Games writers do...

I wish they'd mostly leave that opinion out too, but I respond by not reading their articles. If you stop reading their articles, eventually they will be replaced.

If people keep giving them attention and they keep bringing in money, they will continue to have a platform for their opinions.

Yeah it may seem glaring from how game sites have to advertise somewhat to drive revenue. But if everyone gives into the term on an industry level, all game press is hype press, then the precedent to critique games is lost, and you'll rarely know what is objectively a waste of everyone's money. The companies will see this and think there is no bully pulpit anymore. Our game is great because we say it is. Especially when the future is digital distribution and not everyone gives refunds.

For example when nintendo brought the NES in '85 they marketed it as a toy, since america was loathe to embrace video games after the crash. Hell they had to sell it next to teddy ruxpin to get people playing again, But were video games for all 'legal' marketing intents and purposes ONLY children's toys? Heeelllll no.

But eh. we all know that.

So taking that analogy back to games journalism, some enthusiasm unfortunately is a line that gaming press has to walk in order to keep the ad money rolling. But Totalbiscuit covered this in his content patch on youtube. I agree there is a lapse of journalistic measure and cyncism that should be held to. Game public relations is still very shaky world than advertising other products, and i really think the root of this problem is this presumption that in games and other parts labeled as "geek culture" companies expect our anxiety to do all of their promotion work for them. Its the same problem with comic book films.

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#13  Edited By tempura13
Member since 2009 • 453 Posts
@foxfoxi said:

Actually, you're completely incorrect. Reviews are meant to weigh, gauge and discuss the technical mechanisms that make up the product. Reviews are not completely personal and shouldn't be considered as such, that leaves the discussion completely open for all kinds of ridiculous propositions and ineffective editorials. What you are saying is that reviewers have the right, absolutely, to ignore the reality surrounding a situation and impose a series of personal beliefs or opinions that can be completely false, incorrect, and outright dishonest. By your standards you'd be ok if someone said Last of Us had horrible graphics, or the physics of Grand Theft Auto 5 were the worst in the industry. After all, it's just someones personal opinion right? It doesn't have to be accurate, honest or even discuss the game itself.

I think you're only looking at both extreme ends here. If we were to follow this very definition, every review in gaming sites will be the same. Then why have multiple sites if we can just have one to do all the reviews? Don't certainly want that. It's uninteresting at best.

Say, don't you want different flavors of ice cream? I do like the variety in reviews. That makes them unique while serving their purpose.

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#14 loafofgame
Member since 2013 • 1742 Posts

Who are you addressing here? I know you don't have to be a journalist on these forums, but as a journalist I assume you've at least thought about how convincing it will be if you write in this particular style. Who are you trying to reach or convince...? What is your point? I mean, just a small selection:

@foxfoxi said:

[...] it's all about mechanics and technical information [...]

No one gives a damn [...] No one cares [...] no one cares [...]

When is this BS going to stop?

This is your approach? You're not even trying to be reasonable or balanced. You're not even considering how other people might feel about this. You're pretty much guilty of the thing you're criticising.

I care about personal opinions. In a place where I can find all this technical information in the blink of an eye, I long for a different perspective. I can always find everything I want to know when I try to decide whether or not to buy a game. I feel that reviews as purely informative property lists have become utterly redundant. I want to broaden my gaming horizon with alternative opinions. They show me news ways to look at and play games. I want these "non-game" aspects to be discussed, even though they might not apply to or interest me, because I think they play a part in making gaming culture more mature and more broadly appealing/respected.

But your mind's already made up:

@foxfoxi said:

Leave the personal critique at the door, no one gives a damn, and no one should give a damn.

Noone's going to convince anyone here.

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deactivated-57e5de5e137a4

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#15 deactivated-57e5de5e137a4
Member since 2004 • 12929 Posts

@platinumking320: I understand and agree with what you're saying. The political commentary is all that I personally have a problem with. People can market to me and try to hype me up all day long if i end up happy in the end. They rarely influence me to actually buy anything and just make me more excited about the hobby in general. But I don't give attention or clicks to the modern "socially conscious" games bloggers.

If other people like it, that's fine and I suppose the market will speak for itself. Gaming sites seem to be spiraling into a pit of self-destruction though, so It seems like the market is already yelling pretty loudly.

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#16  Edited By platinumking320
Member since 2003 • 668 Posts

@guynamedbilly said:

@platinumking320: I understand and agree with what you're saying. The political commentary is all that I personally have a problem with. People can market to me and try to hype me up all day long if i end up happy in the end. They rarely influence me to actually buy anything and just make me more excited about the hobby in general. But I don't give attention or clicks to the modern "socially conscious" games bloggers.

If other people like it, that's fine and I suppose the market will speak for itself. Gaming sites seem to be spiraling into a pit of self-destruction though, so It seems like the market is already yelling pretty loudly.

Sure. The way political commentary comes about has some feeling of awkward timing like Brenna Hillier's upset rant on vg247.com about Capcom's Deep Down not having playable female characters, and closing the comments. When the rest of the site has to run damage control and explain it was a humor op. (that many readers didn't get) that's no good sign.

The social justice commentary can get nauseating so I mainly look for mechanical judgements like Totalbiscuit sometimes, but mostly form my own opinion. and entertain some diff sociopolitical views waay later after I've had my fun.

Itd be nice if we were in an era if games just sold themselves though. swastikas and pentagrams didn't stop Wolfenstein 3D and Doom.

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#17 deactivated-5e5d7e6d61227
Member since 2009 • 619 Posts

I couldn't agree with you anymore! It happens. Its starting to get easier to tell the bias articles against the true ones. You will have journalists who will mark a game down because thats what their editor wants them to do to not seem overly biased against that genre. A company doesn't want the "fans" to get upset if they mark down the quality of the game for honest reasons. There would be out-lash and dismay all over the country...even the world!!! Yes, what I said was a little out there but this is something that these people tend to believe. What does the mass think? If they are not happy they will boycott us and then we will lose our jobs! Oh no!!! I'm curious to how many journalists have said that?

@barrybarryk said:

If a reviewer thinks a game is too hard, violent or sexist, and decides to mark it down for that, it's absolutely no different to not liking the games art style or any other aspect of a game. Reviews are personal opinion, they always have been. Stop thinking a game you like deserves a higher score from a reviewer, it's their review and they can rate it however they see fit.

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#18 turtlethetaffer
Member since 2009 • 18973 Posts

Did not read the wall of text that is the OP. But I'll say that there's always subjectivity in a review for anything. Although, obviously, having someone review a violent game when they don't like violent games is a poor move. But I think that, in the case of something like GTAV, the point about it having a poor portrayal of women is completely fine.