Naughty Dog's PS4 Engine just now getting up and running

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#1 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

This explains why even after working on it for 2 years, they didn't have anything to show at the reveal. Looks like most of the Sony studios are already struggling with next gen. We haven't even seen Sony Santa Monica's project that's been in the works since March 2010. The Last Guardian is apparently in no shape to be re-introduced. And PD couldn't even offer up a cross gen port of GT6 while Ubisoft, Activision and EA managed to put out 6 versions of their biggest games. If these AAA Sony studios are struggling to come out with games in a timely fashion, what exactly does this mean for the PS4 exclusive lineup?

Terrible management by Sony.

#2 Posted by ZZoMBiE13 (22911 posts) -

Did you just give EA a compliment? You stop that. Stop that right now!

Bad S0lid. Don't make me roll up a newspaper and bop you on the nose.

#3 Posted by Jackc8 (8500 posts) -

Where's Titanfall and Halo and Gears of War and Fable?

If these AAA Microsoft studios are struggling to come out with games in a timely fashion, what exactly does this mean for the Xbox One exclusive lineup?

#4 Edited by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@Jackc8:
Nice try, but TitanFall is coming out in two months, and Halo and Fable have had their reveal trailers shown months ago.

#6 Edited by LeftClick007 (76 posts) -

I think it just depends on studio size and management, a well managed team of 50 people can get work done faster than 150 with bad management

Nothing enticing is coming out anytime soon, for either console Im just gonna wait it out

#7 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@Jackc8

:

Nice try, but TitanFall is coming out in two months, and Halo and Fable have had their reveal trailers shown months ago.

Its hilarious that you whine that Sony (who has stuck to gameplay footage since the infamous E3 05 where they tried to pass CG off as real) hasn't shown anything but you praise MS for showing CG trailers. Your definition of 'something' and that of most gamers wildly differs.

Sony has stuck to gameplay, even when its been unflattering (Drive Club was looking rough for a while). If the insistence upon showing gameplay means that studios wait until the engine is pretty far along before showing the games, I'm fine with that.

Also, it may have escaped your notice, but Titanfall is a third party game (albeit one MS has bought exclusivity for).

#8 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@S0lidSnake said:

@Jackc8

:

Nice try, but TitanFall is coming out in two months, and Halo and Fable have had their reveal trailers shown months ago.

Its hilarious that you whine that Sony (who has stuck to gameplay footage since the infamous E3 05 where they tried to pass CG off as real) hasn't shown anything but you praise MS for showing CG trailers. Your definition of 'something' and that of most gamers wildly differs.

Sony has stuck to gameplay, even when its been unflattering (Drive Club was looking rough for a while). If the insistence upon showing gameplay means that studios wait until the engine is pretty far along before showing the games, I'm fine with that.

Also, it may have escaped your notice, but Titanfall is a third party game (albeit one MS has bought exclusivity for).

I am not praising anyone. I was just replying to the person who tried to paint me as someone with a MS bias.

The fact is that we shouldn't even bring MS in the discussion because of how shitty their output has been since the Kinect reveal in 2010. They are AWFUL.

So no, people shouldn't just compare Sony's output to Microsoft's and say at least we are not as bad as the piece of shit company known for their yearly Halo and Forza franchises. Sony's studios should be held to a higher standard. They are widely praised as the best first party studios in the world. They are the reason why many gamers chose the PS4 as the next gen console. Just because MS hasn't shown much, it doesn't mean Sony should get a get out of jail free card.

That and their lead architect has been going around telling everyone stuff like time to triangle is only 3 months. Well, who gives a fuck when you cant even get a cross gen port for your flagship racer ready by launch?

BTW, I didn't see anyone here pointing to the Xbox 360 exclusive line up last year while shitting on the Wii U launch window line up. They were compared against the best.

#9 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (18161 posts) -

Aren't you glad you didn't buy any next gen consoles at launch? Oh wait: you bought 3 :P

<3

#10 Posted by locus-solus (481 posts) -

This explains why even after working on it for 2 years, they didn't have anything to show at the reveal. Looks like most of the Sony studios are already struggling with next gen. We haven't even seen Sony Santa Monica's project that's been in the works since March 2010. The Last Guardian is apparently in no shape to be re-introduced. And PD couldn't even offer up a cross gen port of GT6 while Ubisoft, Activision and EA managed to put out 6 versions of their biggest games. If these AAA Sony studios are struggling to come out with games in a timely fashion, what exactly does this mean for the PS4 exclusive lineup?

Terrible management by Sony.

hum maybe sony should give management of The Last Guardian to EA or Capcom it might actually get released thin brilliant idea of the year lol

#11 Edited by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@CarnageHeart said:

@S0lidSnake said:

@Jackc8

:

Nice try, but TitanFall is coming out in two months, and Halo and Fable have had their reveal trailers shown months ago.

Its hilarious that you whine that Sony (who has stuck to gameplay footage since the infamous E3 05 where they tried to pass CG off as real) hasn't shown anything but you praise MS for showing CG trailers. Your definition of 'something' and that of most gamers wildly differs.

Sony has stuck to gameplay, even when its been unflattering (Drive Club was looking rough for a while). If the insistence upon showing gameplay means that studios wait until the engine is pretty far along before showing the games, I'm fine with that.

Also, it may have escaped your notice, but Titanfall is a third party game (albeit one MS has bought exclusivity for).

I am not praising anyone. I was just replying to the person who tried to paint me as someone with a MS bias.

The fact is that we shouldn't even bring MS in the discussion because of how shitty their output has been since the Kinect reveal in 2010. They are AWFUL.

So no, people shouldn't just compare Sony's output to Microsoft's and say at least we are not as bad as the piece of shit company known for their yearly Halo and Forza franchises. Sony's studios should be held to a higher standard. They are widely praised as the best first party studios in the world. They are the reason why many gamers chose the PS4 as the next gen console. Just because MS hasn't shown much, it doesn't mean Sony should get a get out of jail free card.

That and their lead architect has been going around telling everyone stuff like time to triangle is only 3 months. Well, who gives a fuck when you cant even get a cross gen port for your flagship racer ready by launch?

BTW, I didn't see anyone here pointing to the Xbox 360 exclusive line up last year while shitting on the Wii U launch window line up. They were compared against the best.

You're the one who claimed that CG reveal trailers meant something, not me. I didn't accuse you of MS bias, I just pointed out that CG trailers and a bought third party game shouldn't be cited as evidence of first party productivity.

AAA developers from Guerilla on down have been stating for months that while time to triangle is quicker, development is more complex.

http://www.gamespot.com/articles/killzone-dev-effort-needed-to-make-next-gen-game-has-quadrupled/1100-6415433/

"The architecture is really cool because it's easier to develop for, you get more memory, you get more hard drive space, you get more processing power so the architecture is easier," he told VG247. "It's also a lot more demanding, because the production effort needed just to make a next-gen title now is not doubled; It's quadrupled."

This is because everything in the game world "needs to look that much better," which requires more staff and efficient communication, Boltjes said.

"It takes a lot more people and that takes a lot more communication," Boltjes said. "So it does it make things a lot more easier from a technical standpoint, but from a professional standpoint it makes things a lot harder.

As for why no cross-gen GT6, some of it is probably because of the GT5 debacle (it shipped late and horribly incomplete) some of it was probably because Drive Club was expected to be a launch title.

I don't believe in extended 'launch windows' (as far as I am concerned, launch is the quarter a console launches) but its worth bearing in mind that Infamous and the delayed Drive Club are hitting in a few months time (DC is rumored for late February).

#12 Posted by Flubbbs (2891 posts) -

where in that post does it say Naughty Dog is struggling with next gen?

#15 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@CarnageHeart: I didn't mean you. I said I was replying to that Jack guy.

#16 Posted by RimacBugatti (1189 posts) -

I think it just means that the devs are going to put more effort into the games which is taking longer. These games are much bigger and more detailed plus limited finances so it makes sense because they cant use more people than they have plus the layoffs so it will be time consuming.

#17 Posted by TwistedShade (3138 posts) -

Isn't Infamous coming out in March? But I do see your point, that UC4 unveiling at VGX's must be really premature if they didn't even have the engine working at the time it was made. Could also explain why Sony's first party launch was so sparse.

#18 Posted by RimacBugatti (1189 posts) -

Infamous hasn't been delayed further so I'm guessing it's still a go for now.

#19 Posted by c_rakestraw (14579 posts) -

Were they making a new engine from scratch or merely updating it for the PlayStation 4? If it's the former, I can understand how it took so long. Engine development isn't exactly quick or easy. That's why so many studios license stuff like the Unreal Engine or other such middleware to save time and money.

#20 Edited by dvader654 (44752 posts) -

Were they making a new engine from scratch or merely updating it for the PlayStation 4? If it's the former, I can understand how it took so long. Engine development isn't exactly quick or easy. That's why so many studios license stuff like the Unreal Engine or other such middleware to save time and money.

This, I will take the extra time for a custom engine as those generally look way better than the generic stuff. Also EA has been working on PC for years, Sony devs have not.

#21 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

Were they making a new engine from scratch or merely updating it for the PlayStation 4? If it's the former, I can understand how it took so long. Engine development isn't exactly quick or easy. That's why so many studios license stuff like the Unreal Engine or other such middleware to save time and money.

Didn't think of this. If this is a brand new engine designed to take advantage of the PS4 hardware then the prospects of a gorgeous looking game are mouth watering. Their job postings said that their next game might have characters with 1 million polygons. That dude in Ryse has 85k polygons and looks amazing already.

I just wanna be blown away. Thats all I want. :(

#22 Posted by bezza2011 (2299 posts) -

I'm sorry does this look like system wars??? Explain to me how this even comes down to them struggling?? You do realise that the ps4 Isis without a doubt more powerful than Xbox one and is at the.moment a mid to high end pc type console, there is no way they are struggling, just look at infamous, lol plus ps4 is the easiest system to programs for and it seems you have know idea hie games are made and how much hard work goes into it. Making up a story coming up with new ideas some people on Thai site think it takes a week or two

#23 Edited by firefox59 (4335 posts) -

@c_rakestraw said:

Were they making a new engine from scratch or merely updating it for the PlayStation 4? If it's the former, I can understand how it took so long. Engine development isn't exactly quick or easy. That's why so many studios license stuff like the Unreal Engine or other such middleware to save time and money.

Didn't think of this. If this is a brand new engine designed to take advantage of the PS4 hardware then the prospects of a gorgeous looking game are mouth watering. Their job postings said that their next game might have characters with 1 million polygons. That dude in Ryse has 85k polygons and looks amazing already.

I just wanna be blown away. Thats all I want. :(

I don't think the 1 million polygon thing will happen, that is almost difficult to fathom. It would make sense for Naughty Dog to overhall their engine though since their games have become known for the graphics almost over anything else. The Unreal 4 engine has been in development, officially, for 10 years. So yeah it could take awhile if they are creating one from scratch (which is why I doubt that it's happening.)

#24 Edited by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

I'm sorry does this look like system wars??? Explain to me how this even comes down to them struggling?? You do realise that the ps4 Isis without a doubt more powerful than Xbox one and is at the.moment a mid to high end pc type console, there is no way they are struggling, just look at infamous, lol plus ps4 is the easiest system to programs for and it seems you have know idea hie games are made and how much hard work goes into it. Making up a story coming up with new ideas some people on Thai site think it takes a week or two

  • Sony Santa Monica New IP - Supposedly in development since April 2010. 3 years and 9 months later, no footage whatsoever.
  • Uncharted 4 - Supposedly in development since November 2011. 2 years and 2 months later, no footage whatsoever.
  • Media Molecule - LBP2 came out in January 2011 - Team 2 made Tearaway- New IP supposedly in development for 3 years. No footage whatsoever. Oh wait, yeah we got that 'amazing' music demo at the the reveal....
  • Team Ico - Supposedly in development since december 2005. 8 years later, nothing.
  • Polyphony Digital - 3 years of Dev time for GT6. No PS4 port at launch. AC4, Ghosts, BF4, NFS all yearly franchises 6 versions of their games available at launch.

Games aren't easy to make, and new IPs take time. I get it. But if you dont have anything to show for a game you've been working on for 2+ years, let alone 3 years then yes one can make the assumption that they are struggling.

Whatever the reason is they need to get better at producing games. Knack and KZ were simply not good enough. Vita had a better exclusive line up than this. If Nolan can pimp out a movie, new IP or sequel every two years with movies so complex they require a budget of $250 million then Sony should've had their best devs work on getting games ready for the launch year.

#25 Edited by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

I don't think the 1 million polygon thing will happen, that is almost difficult to fathom. It would make sense for Naughty Dog to overhall their engine though since their games have become known for the graphics almost over anything else. The Unreal 4 engine has been in development, officially, for 10 years. So yeah it could take awhile if they are creating one from scratch (which is why I doubt that it's happening.)

QD's Sorcerer demo had characters that had 1 million polygons.

That said, I also think they will likely spend those resources elsewhere. As we can see with Ryse, polygons aren't exactly neccessary to make realistic looking character models.

#26 Edited by BranKetra (47756 posts) -

@S0lidSnake: This certainly is odd of such a prominent group of game companies (Sony and Naughty Dog). I hope they make good quality products for the PlayStation 4.

#27 Edited by LauriAJ (18 posts) -

So, what do you wish to see from ND soon? A new Jak and Daxter game would be cool to see.

#28 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@S0lidSnake:

There's a difference between not having anything to show and choosing to focus on stuff which is close to release. The only team who has really failed to come through of those you named is Team Ico. While I love their work and looked forward to The Last Guardian for a long time, we ought to just concede that the team is gone and the project is dead.

The Media Molecule PS4 demo was incredible. In four minutes it showed how one could mold clay into anything one could imagine, use the clay to build cities and towers and most impressively of all, animate your sculptures and have them interact seamlessly with objects and each other. The possibilities are insane.

Haven't played Knack yet (still no PSN demo) but it sounds like it accomplished what it tried to do (be a good game for parents to play with small kids). I can personally attest that KZ is great. As I've noted before, its detractors haven't really offered a coherent narrative for why they dislike the campaign (half say it was awesome when you were roaming around freely fighting patrols, then boring when you started getting into intense battles in smallish areas, the other half say it was boring when you were roaming around fighting patrols, then boring when you were forced to fight large groups of enemies in small areas). I enjoyed both segments.

Also, you or some guy who hacked your account has offered high praise for the MP of KZ recently.

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/the-official-playstation-4-thread-of-greatness-is--30919044/?page=13#js-message-638

Solid said:

I finished the last game with an insane 22k score. I mixed spawns with air turrets and had a pretty nice run with the support rifle. The game is fantastic. Easily the best shooter out right now.

#29 Posted by contracts420 (1956 posts) -

@c_rakestraw said:

Were they making a new engine from scratch or merely updating it for the PlayStation 4? If it's the former, I can understand how it took so long. Engine development isn't exactly quick or easy. That's why so many studios license stuff like the Unreal Engine or other such middleware to save time and money.

Didn't think of this. If this is a brand new engine designed to take advantage of the PS4 hardware then the prospects of a gorgeous looking game are mouth watering. Their job postings said that their next game might have characters with 1 million polygons. That dude in Ryse has 85k polygons and looks amazing already.

I just wanna be blown away. Thats all I want. :(

"Uncharted 1 was a hard project because we had a new I.P, new team, new system, new engine, new everything. I would always say doing Uncharted 1 was like doing brain surgery with a chainsaw."

Naughty Dog had a number of people leave during it's difficult development of Uncharted: Drake's Fortune and is known to have been the companies darkest days. It was the most difficult development period they had been put through.

Amy Hennig of Naughty Dog said about the development of Uncharted 3: Drake's Deception "We absolutely killed ourselves on this project. I think this was the hardest thing any of us have ever done"

Josh Scherr said about UC3's development "But this time around, just because of the scope and the ambition of the game – even after we had gone back and shortened some things, trimmed some other things there was just still a lot to do, in the amount of time we had to do it."

I couldn't remember the name of the article but Amy Hennig had said they would not announce the release date or force themselves to show footage before THEY were ready on any future projects due to the issues they had with UC3's development. Which was also affected by TLOU as well as Sony.

Bruce Straley recently said "We scrapped everything at the beginning of Uncharted 1, and we had a perfectly good engine with the Jak & Daxter franchise. We could have started with something there and then built off of it and only changed the pieces and parts as we needed, when we needed. And that really caused a lot of turmoil." Naughty Dog will now make modular adjustments to its existing tech as needed for story and game design.

Naughty Dog has confirmed that “2014 will also bring our full reveal of Uncharted for PS4"

#30 Edited by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@CarnageHeart: lol the mp is great but I was talking about the SP.

Here are my final thoughts on the game's SP that I posted on ROF.

So I finished the campaign last night, and wrote some final impressions at Gamespot, but I still need to get some stuff off my chest. This is one of the most oddly designed games I have ever played, and I want to know who thought this was a good idea.

Guerrilla Games promised large open environments and demoed a forest level at E3 which had multiple objectives and a lot of room to move about. Oddly enough, that is the only such level in the game. All other levels are linear and seem to follow the corridor shooter formula of the previous games.

Now I am a fan of the previous campaigns, but for some reason the intensity is turned way down. You simply walk for most of the game. I hate this new trend of walking in video games. Uncharted 2 started this trend with the Nepal Village chapter, and it seems every game now has you walking through some boring environments. KZSF does have some platforming and zero gravity levels to keep the walking from getting boring.

And that’s the biggest flaw of the game. They should’ve focused instead on spicing up the combat. I loved the campaign in KZ3 because you were always doing something different. Piloting mechs, jetpacks, tanks, those stupid flying intruders, fighting giant mechs with badass alien weaponry and much more throughout the course of a 8 hour long campaign. In KZSF, you fight some enemies with your standard rifle, walk, fight some more enemies with the same rifle, walk around in zero gravity, rinse and repeat.

The levels are massive, but they don’t add anything to the gameplay other than making walking around each level twice as long. I guess it’s impressive and gives the game a next gen feel and atmosphere, but it resulted in some poorly designed levels where half of the time you wont know where to go.

The storytelling is the worst I’ve seen in years. The story is told from the first person perspective. You can barely hear any dialogue. All the characters mumble their dialogues, and the audio mixing is generally awful. I had no idea what the fuck happened at the end of the game. KZ3 got shat on by many for a somewhat immature story, but at least it was told well. The cutscenes were competently designed and there was actual drama there b/w the characters…. On both sides. There is none of that here because you only follow the perspective of one stupid no-name soldier.

It does have its moments. The massive levels really do sell the next gen horsepower. There is a space level that starts you out outside of a space station. You make your way into the space station then back outside without any loading and fight off some space drones in zero gravity. You then get on a space bike and breach the atmosphere of the planet next to the space station. Again no loading so far. You then ditch the space bike in mid air and proceed to fall down from the sky at terminal velocity. As if that wasn’t enough, the planet is having a massive earthquake with literally thousands of skyscrapers crumbling all around you while you navigate your way to a landing zone all in realtime for a good minute or so. I wouldn’t call any of that particularly fun, but my god was it impressive.

And that’s my biggest gripe with the game. At no point I was actually having fun. Say what you will about Nintendo, they at least seem to get that video games above all should be fun.

#31 Posted by firefox59 (4335 posts) -

@firefox59 said:

I don't think the 1 million polygon thing will happen, that is almost difficult to fathom. It would make sense for Naughty Dog to overhall their engine though since their games have become known for the graphics almost over anything else. The Unreal 4 engine has been in development, officially, for 10 years. So yeah it could take awhile if they are creating one from scratch (which is why I doubt that it's happening.)

QD's Sorcerer demo had characters that had 1 million polygons.

That said, I also think they will likely spend those resources elsewhere. As we can see with Ryse, polygons aren't exactly neccessary to make realistic looking character models.

That's my point though. That was just a floating head and the level of detail was groundbreaking. For them to make multiple full figures at that level would tax the hardware quite a bit, which is why I agree with your second statement.

#32 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@S0lidSnake:

Big levels one can freely roam around in do make for less of the moment to moment intensity one can find in more linear games, but being able to sneak up to or around enemy patrols was awesome. I'll repost my old final impressions here (as you can see, I agree with you on the freefalling bits sucking).

-----------------------

http://www.gamespot.com/forums/games-discussion-1000000/the-official-playstation-4-thread-of-greatness-is--30919044/?page=8

Shadow Fall has a great last mission. Despite a few weak spots (nods towards the freefalling) Shadow Fall is my favorite Killzone.

The first and the second halves are very different in structure. With the exception of the last mission the second half is mostly old school KZ while the first half is more free roaming. Both schools of design have their merits. Freely roaming around, avoiding or ambushing enemies is fun, but its also nice to fight for survival (or run for one's life) on big, crowded battlefields.

The weapons feel great. After the frustrating lack of recoil in KZ3, recoil is back in a big way in Shadow Fall (so if you fire a burst from a heavy machine gun at a distant target, most of the bullets will miss because the gun is jumping around so much).

I really liked how Shadow Fall delved a bit more more into fantastic sci-fi than past KZs have and I hope to see more of that in the future (though of course the next Guerilla game I want to see is their original IP).

---------------------

I never had any problem hearing the dialogue. There must have been some weirdness going on with you audio set-up. The story was nothing to write home about, but honestly, the KZ games are action games, so I don't expect much from them.

*Shrugs* If you confuse Nintendo's rehashes with fun, that's fine and good, but just goes to show that fun is completely subjective.

#33 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@firefox59: Nah, the floating head was only at the PS4 reveal. They had a full fledged demo at E3 with three different characters and then about a dozen copies of one character.

#34 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@CarnageHeart: I would highly disagree with the claim that the first half of the game is a more open sandbox-ish level design. Only the forest chapter of the game offers the kind of open level designed they promised. The rest of the chapters, all 9 of them, are large, but can hardly be described as free roaming. Yeah the game has you roam a lot but its basically going from point A to B. Literally every chapter devolves into walking forward until you run into a squad of enemies that you can then take down.

It's not my fault that one dungeon or world of the Nintendo rehash is better designed than all of KZSF's campaign chapters combined.

You and I were both fans of KZ3's campaign. That campaign knew that KZ2 lacked the punch and fun factor a shooter needs from becoming stale. They kept throwing new scenarios at you in literally every chapter. One minute you are in a mech, the next you are in a sniper battle then you get in a tank and race around a nuked city at an insanely high speed. The next chapter that puts you in a stealth mission that ends with you fighting a new mech bird and then holding off the enemy until the last of your soldiers die. you then fly around an oil rig shooting at stuff until you get a jetpack of your own. every mission let you try new and powerful weapons. Literally every mission had a new weapon. It culminated in a fantastic fight against a mech. (I choose to believe that the last chapter in space never happened)

The point is that levels were tightly designed and always focused on giving you the most fun tools to take out the enemy. It didn't have you meander about in space or in a prison or on a crumbling city. It put you right in the middle of the action and put fun first. It wasn't perfect, but it was definitely a whole lot more fun than KZSF's campaign.

#35 Edited by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@CarnageHeart: I would highly disagree with the claim that the first half of the game is a more open sandbox-ish level design. Only the forest chapter of the game offers the kind of open level designed they promised. The rest of the chapters, all 9 of them, are large, but can hardly be described as free roaming. Yeah the game has you roam a lot but its basically going from point A to B. Literally every chapter devolves into walking forward until you run into a squad of enemies that you can then take down.

It's not my fault that one dungeon or world of the Nintendo rehash is better designed than all of KZSF's campaign chapters combined.

You and I were both fans of KZ3's campaign. That campaign knew that KZ2 lacked the punch and fun factor a shooter needs from becoming stale. They kept throwing new scenarios at you in literally every chapter. One minute you are in a mech, the next you are in a sniper battle then you get in a tank and race around a nuked city at an insanely high speed. The next chapter that puts you in a stealth mission that ends with you fighting a new mech bird and then holding off the enemy until the last of your soldiers die. you then fly around an oil rig shooting at stuff until you get a jetpack of your own. every mission let you try new and powerful weapons. Literally every mission had a new weapon. It culminated in a fantastic fight against a mech. (I choose to believe that the last chapter in space never happened)

The point is that levels were tightly designed and always focused on giving you the most fun tools to take out the enemy. It didn't have you meander about in space or in a prison or on a crumbling city. It put you right in the middle of the action and put fun first. It wasn't perfect, but it was definitely a whole lot more fun than KZSF's campaign.

I never said Shadow Fall was a sandbox type game. You have the freedom to roam, but you are on a mission and there aren't a bunch of random things to do. I'm also reasonably sure Guerilla never promised such a game.

Its not your fault you confuse Nintendo rehashes with quality. Nostalgia is a powerful force for some people.

I didn't think that KZ3's campaign lived up to KZ2's because of that diversity. KZ2 was only a modest commercial success, but it was its own game. Guerilla in KZ3 was clearly trying to appeal more to the CoD and Halo crowd with the pacing which alternated between almost uniformly great on foot segments and uneven vehicle bits and with the new, overly light feel of the weapons (which lacked recoil). Ultimately, many KZ2 fans stayed away from KZ3 and the CoD and Halo crowd (who were perfectly happy with CoD and Halo) stayed away so KZ3's sales were substantially worse than KZ2's.

I loved the feel of Shadow Fall (the character wasn't quite a heavy as in KZ2, but weapons felt great, the drone was a useful tool and recoil was back) and as I've stated, I enjoyed the two schools of level design. However, I agree that KZ3's superb MAWLR (one of the few examples of a great boss in an fps) was a better boss than Shadow Fall's.

#36 Posted by bezza2011 (2299 posts) -

@bezza2011 said:

I'm sorry does this look like system wars??? Explain to me how this even comes down to them struggling?? You do realise that the ps4 Isis without a doubt more powerful than Xbox one and is at the.moment a mid to high end pc type console, there is no way they are struggling, just look at infamous, lol plus ps4 is the easiest system to programs for and it seems you have know idea hie games are made and how much hard work goes into it. Making up a story coming up with new ideas some people on Thai site think it takes a week or two

  • Sony Santa Monica New IP - Supposedly in development since April 2010. 3 years and 9 months later, no footage whatsoever.
  • Uncharted 4 - Supposedly in development since November 2011. 2 years and 2 months later, no footage whatsoever.
  • Media Molecule - LBP2 came out in January 2011 - Team 2 made Tearaway- New IP supposedly in development for 3 years. No footage whatsoever. Oh wait, yeah we got that 'amazing' music demo at the the reveal....
  • Team Ico - Supposedly in development since december 2005. 8 years later, nothing.
  • Polyphony Digital - 3 years of Dev time for GT6. No PS4 port at launch. AC4, Ghosts, BF4, NFS all yearly franchises 6 versions of their games available at launch.

Games aren't easy to make, and new IPs take time. I get it. But if you dont have anything to show for a game you've been working on for 2+ years, let alone 3 years then yes one can make the assumption that they are struggling.

Whatever the reason is they need to get better at producing games. Knack and KZ were simply not good enough. Vita had a better exclusive line up than this. If Nolan can pimp out a movie, new IP or sequel every two years with movies so complex they require a budget of $250 million then Sony should've had their best devs work on getting games ready for the launch year.

still doesn't mean there struggling.

naughty dog only released the last of us a few months ago the best half of that team went to that project, the other team made a card game for the ps vita if i'm not mistaken, it's called marketing to keep the hype up, the game may not be ready yet and why show footage right now when the consoles have just come out it's called timing and keeping the hype going,

i think you forget sony don't rush games out, if the developers say there not ready sony allows them time, with any first party developer.

KNACK was a good simple game, and killzone is a good shooter the graphics are amazing so to say there struggling is crazy, the console was designed by developers it's the easiest console to develop for so just because they don't show off what they are doing exactly when you think they should be shown.

honestly it's the beginning of the year, we will see alot more games for this year from now till E3

#37 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@CarnageHeart:

Lol Nintendo Nostalgia? Me? Before TLBW I had never even finished a single dungeon in a Zelda game and Twilight Princess is the only other Zelda game I’ve played, and that too was earlier this year.

Same with Mario. I don’t think I’ve played a Mario game since the early 90s. Mario’s one world has more new ideas than the entire campaign of KZSF. And here is the most important part, these ideas are well realized and polished to perfection instead of the half assed nature of everything in KZSF.

I think you are letting your bias get in the way of viewing these Nintendo games objectively. There is a reason why Super Mario 3D World is in every single GOTY list. Even though the gaming media has been brutally harsh about the Wii U since it was revealed.

I love the gunplay in KZSF. It retains the heavy feel of KZ2 while feeling almost as responsive as CoD. I love that the recoil is back and the MP is phenomenal. But the campaign leaves a lot to be desired. You are wrong in that they didn’t promise optional objectives and a more sandboxy feel to the game because that’s the level they showed off at E3 marketing the game as such. Your definition of free roaming is weird as well when you can only ‘roam around’ in relatively large corridors. At the end of the day, a corridor regardless of how large it is is still a corridor.

I mean the fact that the Zipline isnt utilized at all after that level should tell you everything.

#38 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@CarnageHeart:

Lol Nintendo Nostalgia? Me? Before TLBW I had never even finished a single dungeon in a Zelda game and Twilight Princess is the only other Zelda game I’ve played, and that too was earlier this year.

Same with Mario. I don’t think I’ve played a Mario game since the early 90s. Mario’s one world has more new ideas than the entire campaign of KZSF. And here is the most important part, these ideas are well realized and polished to perfection instead of the half assed nature of everything in KZSF.

I think you are letting your bias get in the way of viewing these Nintendo games objectively. There is a reason why Super Mario 3D World is in every single GOTY list. Even though the gaming media has been brutally harsh about the Wii U since it was revealed.

I love the gunplay in KZSF. It retains the heavy feel of KZ2 while feeling almost as responsive as CoD. I love that the recoil is back and the MP is phenomenal. But the campaign leaves a lot to be desired. You are wrong in that they didn’t promise optional objectives and a more sandboxy feel to the game because that’s the level they showed off at E3 marketing the game as such. Your definition of free roaming is weird as well when you can only ‘roam around’ in relatively large corridors. At the end of the day, a corridor regardless of how large it is is still a corridor.

I mean the fact that the Zipline isnt utilized at all after that level should tell you everything.

Mario is tired crap which the media tends to overpraise no matter. As I pointed out earlier in the thread about the latest (I think) Mario game, the media said the same things about that Mario that they said about the Mario that was released at the launch of the Wii U ('Damn near perfection and while not the best Mario ever, the best Mario in years and which brings a freshness past Marios have lacked!).

You can set your watch to Mario and Zelda reviews and they tend to be utterly meaningless to people not viewing the games through a thick lens of nostalgia. Its hilarious that you cite reviewers as evidence of anything. Even fellow Nintendo fans don't tend to take reviewers seriously (which is why there hasn't been a stampede toward the latest Mario game).

*Shrugs* But if reviewers praising Mario enabled you to enjoy it, I envy you that. Now go and play all the other Mario's (pretty much all of them) reviewers have given the same generic, meaningless praise to!

As for Killzone, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree, but you needn't worry about Killzone, you have dozens of Mario games to catch up on :). Good luck with that.

#39 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

@CarnageHeart: lol ok Carnage. Absolutely fucking nuts. But ok. ;p

#40 Posted by firefox59 (4335 posts) -

Mario is tired crap which the media tends to overpraise no matter. As I pointed out earlier in the thread about the latest (I think) Mario game, the media said the same things about that Mario that they said about the Mario that was released at the launch of the Wii U ('Damn near perfection and while not the best Mario ever, the best Mario in years and which brings a freshness past Marios have lacked!).

You can set your watch to Mario and Zelda reviews and they tend to be utterly meaningless to people not viewing the games through a thick lens of nostalgia. Its hilarious that you cite reviewers as evidence of anything. Even fellow Nintendo fans don't tend to take reviewers seriously (which is why there hasn't been a stampede toward the latest Mario game).

*Shrugs* But if reviewers praising Mario enabled you to enjoy it, I envy you that. Now go and play all the other Mario's (pretty much all of them) reviewers have given the same generic, meaningless praise to!

As for Killzone, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree, but you needn't worry about Killzone, you have dozens of Mario games to catch up on :). Good luck with that.

The 2D mario games have been pretty repetitive, I mean you can only go right. But they have added new abilities and small innovations in each one. It's a 2d game though, how do you expect them to drastically change the formula. Zelda on the other hand has no business in this argument. Other than each one involving Link with a sword and shield, all of the games are incredibly different and each one plays differently.

Nintendo as a whole does renew their characters but they have done a ton of different things with Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Star Fox and Kirby. There are no other franchises that have such differences in game type as Nintendo does with their "repetitive" franchises.

#41 Edited by D3s7rUc71oN (5180 posts) -

While I enjoyed what KZ: SF tried to do, as Solid said it wasn't that fun. I enjoyed Killzone 3 much more. After KZ: SF I began playing CoD Ghosts campaign and finished it in almost a single sitting. The campaign was scripted event after scripted event but I found it fun enjoying more then previous CoD's campaigns.

I'm suprised at the lack of fighting games announced, itching for one on the PS4

#42 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

While I enjoyed what KZ: SF tried to do, as Solid said it wasn't that fun. I enjoyed Killzone 3 much more. After KZ: SF I began playing CoD Ghosts campaign and finished it in almost a single sitting. The campaign was scripted event after scripted event but I found it fun enjoying more then previous CoD's campaigns.

I'm suprised at the lack of fighting games announced, itching for one on the PS4

So we've established that people who enjoy CoD's campaigns loved KZ3's campaign and dislike KZ4's campaign. I never liked CoD's campaigns and I wasn't a big fan of KZ3's campaign and I vastly prefer the campaign of KZ4 (and for that matter, KZ2).

Of course, tastes are subjective, so at this point I will note as I have in the past, that throwing away what people like about a moderately popular series and imitating more popular series rarely works commercially and certainly didn't work in the case of KZ3 (which in fairness, borrowed from Halo as well as CoD).

I've never played any version of it myself, but there is Injustice: Gods Among Us and of course Sony has been strongly hinting at a Street Fighter (Hadouken Cabs).

#43 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@CarnageHeart said:

Mario is tired crap which the media tends to overpraise no matter. As I pointed out earlier in the thread about the latest (I think) Mario game, the media said the same things about that Mario that they said about the Mario that was released at the launch of the Wii U ('Damn near perfection and while not the best Mario ever, the best Mario in years and which brings a freshness past Marios have lacked!).

You can set your watch to Mario and Zelda reviews and they tend to be utterly meaningless to people not viewing the games through a thick lens of nostalgia. Its hilarious that you cite reviewers as evidence of anything. Even fellow Nintendo fans don't tend to take reviewers seriously (which is why there hasn't been a stampede toward the latest Mario game).

*Shrugs* But if reviewers praising Mario enabled you to enjoy it, I envy you that. Now go and play all the other Mario's (pretty much all of them) reviewers have given the same generic, meaningless praise to!

As for Killzone, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree, but you needn't worry about Killzone, you have dozens of Mario games to catch up on :). Good luck with that.

The 2D mario games have been pretty repetitive, I mean you can only go right. But they have added new abilities and small innovations in each one. It's a 2d game though, how do you expect them to drastically change the formula. Zelda on the other hand has no business in this argument. Other than each one involving Link with a sword and shield, all of the games are incredibly different and each one plays differently.

Nintendo as a whole does renew their characters but they have done a ton of different things with Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Star Fox and Kirby. There are no other franchises that have such differences in game type as Nintendo does with their "repetitive" franchises.

Let me note that I am talking about real games in the series, not random unrelated games with familiar franchises slapped on them (Mario themed Tetris knockoffs and suchlike).

There's an odd dichotomy because while Nintendo stays conservative with the main games they are fast to whore out the IP (Dynasty Warriors Zelda, Zelda CDI, Mario popping up in NBA Street, etc, etc.). Its kind of interesting how they have been much more restrained Nintendo has been with the Pokémon franchise (consequently, the release of Pokemons is still an event).

When talking about diversity and Starfox, you must be referring to the game originally known as Dinosaur Planet that Miyamoto forced to become a Star Fox game. Star Fox Adventures is a prime example of why Miyamoto's ascension has been problematic for Nintendo. Miyamoto is a great creative talent, but he has smothered Nintendo in the core arena because he forces almost everything to conform to his vision and become part of one of his pet franchises.

#44 Posted by dvader654 (44752 posts) -

@S0lidSnake said:

@CarnageHeart:

Lol Nintendo Nostalgia? Me? Before TLBW I had never even finished a single dungeon in a Zelda game and Twilight Princess is the only other Zelda game I’ve played, and that too was earlier this year.

Same with Mario. I don’t think I’ve played a Mario game since the early 90s. Mario’s one world has more new ideas than the entire campaign of KZSF. And here is the most important part, these ideas are well realized and polished to perfection instead of the half assed nature of everything in KZSF.

I think you are letting your bias get in the way of viewing these Nintendo games objectively. There is a reason why Super Mario 3D World is in every single GOTY list. Even though the gaming media has been brutally harsh about the Wii U since it was revealed.

I love the gunplay in KZSF. It retains the heavy feel of KZ2 while feeling almost as responsive as CoD. I love that the recoil is back and the MP is phenomenal. But the campaign leaves a lot to be desired. You are wrong in that they didn’t promise optional objectives and a more sandboxy feel to the game because that’s the level they showed off at E3 marketing the game as such. Your definition of free roaming is weird as well when you can only ‘roam around’ in relatively large corridors. At the end of the day, a corridor regardless of how large it is is still a corridor.

I mean the fact that the Zipline isnt utilized at all after that level should tell you everything.

Mario is tired crap which the media tends to overpraise no matter. As I pointed out earlier in the thread about the latest (I think) Mario game, the media said the same things about that Mario that they said about the Mario that was released at the launch of the Wii U ('Damn near perfection and while not the best Mario ever, the best Mario in years and which brings a freshness past Marios have lacked!).

You can set your watch to Mario and Zelda reviews and they tend to be utterly meaningless to people not viewing the games through a thick lens of nostalgia. Its hilarious that you cite reviewers as evidence of anything. Even fellow Nintendo fans don't tend to take reviewers seriously (which is why there hasn't been a stampede toward the latest Mario game).

*Shrugs* But if reviewers praising Mario enabled you to enjoy it, I envy you that. Now go and play all the other Mario's (pretty much all of them) reviewers have given the same generic, meaningless praise to!

As for Killzone, we're clearly going to have to agree to disagree, but you needn't worry about Killzone, you have dozens of Mario games to catch up on :). Good luck with that.

I am going to save this post so that I can paste this in every Nintendo thread you decide to show up it to show everyone how pointless anything you say about Nintendo is. :P

#45 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@dvader654: You can ridicule my notion that Nintendo needs to offer a broader range of games (some of them non-Japanese) when Nintendo 'reveals' that the Wii U missed its sales targets due primarily to weak sales in the West :).

#46 Posted by firefox59 (4335 posts) -

@firefox59 said:

Let me note that I am talking about real games in the series, not random unrelated games with familiar franchises slapped on them (Mario themed Tetris knockoffs and suchlike).

There's an odd dichotomy because while Nintendo stays conservative with the main games they are fast to whore out the IP (Dynasty Warriors Zelda, Zelda CDI, Mario popping up in NBA Street, etc, etc.). Its kind of interesting how they have been much more restrained Nintendo has been with the Pokémon franchise (consequently, the release of Pokemons is still an event).

When talking about diversity and Starfox, you must be referring to the game originally known as Dinosaur Planet that Miyamoto forced to become a Star Fox game. Star Fox Adventures is a prime example of why Miyamoto's ascension has been problematic for Nintendo. Miyamoto is a great creative talent, but he has smothered Nintendo in the core arena because he forces almost everything to conform to his vision and become part of one of his pet franchises.

First of all, Star Fox Adventures was a great game. They also had a 3ds game and Star fox Assault (while it wasn't very good, it is still a new idea for the franchise.) Secondly, as you only pointed out Star Fox, you accept that the other franchises have shown great diversity correct?

One example does not make a pattern. Miyamoto recently came up with Wii Music and Pikmin. How many iconic franchises does one man have to create to get some respect. As for Nintendo as a whole, this is a list of franchises that Nintendo has created in the last 13 years (not my list):

WarioWare, Eternal Darkness, Mario & Luigi RPG, Golden Sun, Luigi’s Mansion, Pikmin, Xenoblade Chronicles, Baten Kaitos, Pandora’s Tower, The Last Story, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Wii Party, Wii Play, Mario vs DK, Soma Bringer, Legend of Starfy, Elite Beat Agents, Rhythm Heaven, Fluidity, Endless Ocean, Magical Vacation/ Magical Starsign, Excitebots/Excite Truck, Chibi Robo, Steel diver, Fossil Fighter, Art Academy, Glory of Heracles, ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat, Electroplankton, Drill Dozer, Art Style, Line Attack Heroes, Flingsmash, Disaster Day of Crisis, Captain Rainbow, Battalian Wars, Geist, Odama, Hamtaro, Meteos, Giftpia, bitGeneration, Art Style, Zangeki no Reginleiv, Zekkyo Senshi Sakeburein, Jet Impulse, Chosoju Mecha MG, and project hacker.

What other dev can come close to that.

#47 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

@CarnageHeart said:

@firefox59 said:

Let me note that I am talking about real games in the series, not random unrelated games with familiar franchises slapped on them (Mario themed Tetris knockoffs and suchlike).

There's an odd dichotomy because while Nintendo stays conservative with the main games they are fast to whore out the IP (Dynasty Warriors Zelda, Zelda CDI, Mario popping up in NBA Street, etc, etc.). Its kind of interesting how they have been much more restrained Nintendo has been with the Pokémon franchise (consequently, the release of Pokemons is still an event).

When talking about diversity and Starfox, you must be referring to the game originally known as Dinosaur Planet that Miyamoto forced to become a Star Fox game. Star Fox Adventures is a prime example of why Miyamoto's ascension has been problematic for Nintendo. Miyamoto is a great creative talent, but he has smothered Nintendo in the core arena because he forces almost everything to conform to his vision and become part of one of his pet franchises.

First of all, Star Fox Adventures was a great game. They also had a 3ds game and Star fox Assault (while it wasn't very good, it is still a new idea for the franchise.) Secondly, as you only pointed out Star Fox, you accept that the other franchises have shown great diversity correct?

One example does not make a pattern. Miyamoto recently came up with Wii Music and Pikmin. How many iconic franchises does one man have to create to get some respect. As for Nintendo as a whole, this is a list of franchises that Nintendo has created in the last 13 years (not my list):

WarioWare, Eternal Darkness, Mario & Luigi RPG, Golden Sun, Luigi’s Mansion, Pikmin, Xenoblade Chronicles, Baten Kaitos, Pandora’s Tower, The Last Story, Wii Sports, Wii Fit, Wii Music, Wii Party, Wii Play, Mario vs DK, Soma Bringer, Legend of Starfy, Elite Beat Agents, Rhythm Heaven, Fluidity, Endless Ocean, Magical Vacation/ Magical Starsign, Excitebots/Excite Truck, Chibi Robo, Steel diver, Fossil Fighter, Art Academy, Glory of Heracles, ASH: Archaic Sealed Heat, Electroplankton, Drill Dozer, Art Style, Line Attack Heroes, Flingsmash, Disaster Day of Crisis, Captain Rainbow, Battalian Wars, Geist, Odama, Hamtaro, Meteos, Giftpia, bitGeneration, Art Style, Zangeki no Reginleiv, Zekkyo Senshi Sakeburein, Jet Impulse, Chosoju Mecha MG, and project hacker.

What other dev can come close to that.

Pikmin launched in 2001. You consider that recent? Wow.

Whoever created your list for you did you a disservice given that its filled with Mario derivatives (Mario RPG, Luigi' Mansion, Warioare) and sequels like Excitebots (there was an old NES game called Excitebike it was positioned as the sequel to), Xenoblade (part of the Xenogears/Xenosaga series) as well as a bunch of casual games (Wii Music, Wii Sports, Electro Plankton). Also, Baiten Kaitos was Namco's game, not Nintendo's, though Nintendo did publish it in Australia. Last but not least, the Glory of Heracles was the sixth game in a very old series originally created by the now dead Data East.

*Shrugs* I could address every game on your list, but why put more time into it than you and whoever put it together for you did?

#48 Posted by firefox59 (4335 posts) -

Pikmin launched in 2001. You consider that recent? Wow.

Whoever created your list for you did you a disservice given that its filled with Mario derivatives (Mario RPG, Luigi' Mansion, Warioare) and sequels like Excitebots (there was an old NES game called Excitebike it was positioned as the sequel to), Xenoblade (part of the Xenogears/Xenosaga series) as well as a bunch of casual games (Wii Music, Wii Sports, Electro Plankton). Also, Baiten Kaitos was Namco's game, not Nintendo's, though Nintendo did publish it in Australia. Last but not least, the Glory of Heracles was the sixth game in a very old series originally created by the now dead Data East.

*Shrugs* I could address every game on your list, but why put more time into it than you and whoever put it together for you did?

Way to completely ignore the point. This is off topic anyways.