N64 Expansion Pak - what games use it, and what are the differences?

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#1 Posted by MrMartinLee (1091 posts) -

I was given a N64 along with Mario 64, OOT, and Perfect Dark. I know Perfect Dark requires the Expansion Pak, but what other games should I look for that either require the Pak, or show some kind of improvement from using it? My question is essentially what games will make it worthwhile to add an Expansion Pak to the system? Thanks!

#2 Posted by kittensRjerks (3802 posts) -

The expansion pak will improve the graphics/performance of -

007: The World is Not Enough
All-Star Baseball 2000
Army Men: Sarge's Heroes 2
Castlevania: Legacy of Darkness
Command and Conquer
CyberTiger
Donald Duck: Goin' Quackers
Duke Nukem: Zero Hour
Excitebike 64
F-1 World Grand Prix
Gauntlet Legends
Hybrid Heaven
Hydro Thunder
Indiana Jones and the Infernal Machine
Indy Racing 2000
International Track & Field 2000
Jeremy McGrath Supercross 2000
John Romero's Daikatana
Ken Griffey Jr.'s Slugfest
Madden NFL 2001
Mega Man 64
Namco Museum 64
NFL Quarterback Club '98
NFL Quarterback Club '99
NFL Quarterback Club 2000
NFL Quarterback Club 2001
Nuclear Strike 64
Pokémon Stadium 2
Quake II
Rayman 2: The Great Escape
Re-Volt
Resident Evil 2
Road Rash 64
Roadsters Trophy
San Francisco Rush 2049
Shadow Man
South Park
Star Wars Episode I: Racer
Star Wars Episode I: Battle for Naboo
Star Wars: Rogue Squadron
Stunt Racer 64
Supercross 2000
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2
Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 3
Top Gear Hyper-Bike
Top Gear Overdrive
Top Gear Rally 2
Turok 2: Seeds of Evil
Turok 3: Shadow of Oblivion
Turok: Rage Wars
Vigilante 8

and a few more I can't remember off hand.

#3 Posted by MrMartinLee (1091 posts) -

Wow. Okay, thanks for the list.

#4 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

that list is correct, but there is a catch , some games are worse with the expansion pack

Hybrid Heaven is one example, there is a high res mode available if you have the expansion pack , but the frame rate goes down to about 5fps , making the game nearly unplayable, wheres in the normal mode, its playable.

C&C also has that issue, though it can be pretty choppy without it too.

that said, most games do benefit from it, just with a minority of games you have to see wheter the games end up being worse.

#5 Posted by Talldude80 (6321 posts) -

other than Perfect Dark and DonkeyKong64 (which came with the expansion, and was not listed above), what games REQUIRE the expansion to play?

#6 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

other than Perfect Dark and DonkeyKong64 (which came with the expansion, and was not listed above), what games REQUIRE the expansion to play?

Talldude80
Majora's Mask
#7 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

You can still play a third or so of Perfect Dark without an expansion pak.

#8 Posted by Talldude80 (6321 posts) -

You can still play a third or so of Perfect Dark without an expansion pak.

SpikeyAss

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

#9 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

You can still play a third or so of Perfect Dark without an expansion pak.

Talldude80

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

Exactly. So it's technically wrong to say 'Perfect Dark requires an expansion pak'.

#10 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

It's mostly used for higher res but some games use it for more than this (namely Donkey Kong 64, Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark all of which also require it).

Here is a description and a list of supported games:

Click

#11 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="Talldude80"]

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

You can still play a third or so of Perfect Dark without an expansion pak.

SpikeyAss

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

Exactly. So it's technically wrong to say 'Perfect Dark requires an expansion pak'.

True, but only a small part of the game is playlable without it so you might as well say it requires it to be enjoyable in any way.

#12 Posted by Talldude80 (6321 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="Talldude80"]

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

nameless12345

Exactly. So it's technically wrong to say 'Perfect Dark requires an expansion pak'.

True, but only a small part of the game is playlable without it so you might as well say it requires it to be enjoyable in any way.

Yeah i got it for Christmas last year, and I was so annoyed that I had to find an expansion pak to do anything other than bot matches. but a GREAT game!

#13 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

Here's what the Pak does to Star Wars Racer:

Click

However this game only supports it and not requires. DK64, Majora and PD get much more benefits from it (like real-time dynamic lighting in DK64, more detail and longer view-distance in Majora, better textures and effects in PD, ect.).

#14 Posted by rogelio22 (2436 posts) -
i cant really remember but im pretty sure conkers bad fur day also requires it
#15 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

i cant really remember but im pretty sure conkers bad fur day also requires itrogelio22

Unfortunately it doesn't make use of the expansion pak whatsoever. Nevertheless, it results in the game being an even greater testament to Rare's ability with the N64.

#16 Posted by rogelio22 (2436 posts) -

[QUOTE="rogelio22"]i cant really remember but im pretty sure conkers bad fur day also requires itSpikeyAss

Unfortunately it doesn't make use of the expansion pak whatsoever. Nevertheless, it results in the game being a shining testament to Rare's ability with the N64.

oh... just that i remember it looking so good back then that i prob thought it did use it since the ram was already in my n64. lol
#17 Posted by MrMartinLee (1091 posts) -

Very nice information. Thanks especially for the chart and video comparison links, Nameless... Looks like I'll be keeping an eye out for DK64.

#18 Posted by Emerald_Warrior (6581 posts) -

[QUOTE="rogelio22"]i cant really remember but im pretty sure conkers bad fur day also requires itSpikeyAss

Unfortunately it doesn't make use of the expansion pak whatsoever. Nevertheless, it results in the game being an even greater testament to Rare's ability with the N64.

Really? It's not even one those games that don't require it, but it still enhances the game?

#19 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="rogelio22"]i cant really remember but im pretty sure conkers bad fur day also requires itEmerald_Warrior

Unfortunately it doesn't make use of the expansion pak whatsoever. Nevertheless, it results in the game being an even greater testament to Rare's ability with the N64.

Really? It's not even one those games that don't require it, but it still enhances the game?

It doesn't make any use of the expansion pak whatsoever.

So no, it's not like Perfect Dark, where the expansion pak isn't required yet if used it'll still make enhancements to the game. I know, it's very surprising - and a shame too, as the inclusion of expansion pak use would've made the frame-rate better.

#20 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

Unfortunately it doesn't make use of the expansion pak whatsoever. Nevertheless, it results in the game being an even greater testament to Rare's ability with the N64.

SpikeyAss

Really? It's not even one those games that don't require it, but it still enhances the game?

It doesn't make any use of the expansion pak whatsoever.

So no, it's not like Perfect Dark, where the expansion pak isn't required yet if used it'll still make enhancements to the game. I know, it's very surprising - and a shame too, as the inclusion of expansion pak use would've made the frame-rate better.

I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen. unless you go into the microcode of the console , something hardly any dev did, the N64 has a more limited polygon budget than its main competitors. you would be able to tell if the microcode was changed if the visuals lack effects like anti aliasing or filterling, and since Conker has those, so I doubt any major changes were done.
#21 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen. unless you go into the microcode of the console , something hardly any dev did, the N64 has a more limited polygon budget than its main competitors. you would be able to tell if the microcode was changed if the visuals lack effects like anti aliasing or filterling, and since Conker has those, so I doubt any major changes were done.Darkman2007

Rare did intend to make use of the expansion pak but ran out of time. So instead of storing the additional memory on it they programmed special memory locations in the RAM. This is why people have been able to access the coding and, through the use of cheat devices, shift the coding over to the expansion pak and be able to use it to enhance Conker's graphics. This isn't possible on the actual console though, as N64 cheat devices have the expansion pak range reserved for the code handler/generator. But I'd imagine that there are ways around that.

#22 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen. unless you go into the microcode of the console , something hardly any dev did, the N64 has a more limited polygon budget than its main competitors. you would be able to tell if the microcode was changed if the visuals lack effects like anti aliasing or filterling, and since Conker has those, so I doubt any major changes were done.SpikeyAss

Rare did intend to make use of the expansion pak but ran out of time. So instead of storing the additional memory on it they programmed special memory locations in the RAM. This is why people have been able to access the coding and, through the use of cheat devices, shift the coding over to the expansion pak and be able to use it to enhance Conker's graphics. This isn't possible on the actual console though, as N64 cheat devices have the expansion pak range reserved for the code handler/generator. But I'd imagine that there are ways around that.

in what ways were they enhanced (beyond an occasional effect, or maybe some nicer textures)
#23 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen. unless you go into the microcode of the console , something hardly any dev did, the N64 has a more limited polygon budget than its main competitors. you would be able to tell if the microcode was changed if the visuals lack effects like anti aliasing or filterling, and since Conker has those, so I doubt any major changes were done.Darkman2007

Rare did intend to make use of the expansion pak but ran out of time. So instead of storing the additional memory on it they programmed special memory locations in the RAM. This is why people have been able to access the coding and, through the use of cheat devices, shift the coding over to the expansion pak and be able to use it to enhance Conker's graphics. This isn't possible on the actual console though, as N64 cheat devices have the expansion pak range reserved for the code handler/generator. But I'd imagine that there are ways around that.

in what ways were they enhanced (beyond an occasional effect, or maybe some nicer textures)

I've only seen it discussed in some threads on a forum (called NeoGaf) so I'm not sure, as I haven't actually seen a video of it either. I'd imagine just the odd effects though, but I've not a clue really :|

#24 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

Rare did intend to make use of the expansion pak but ran out of time. So instead of storing the additional memory on it they programmed special memory locations in the RAM. This is why people have been able to access the coding and, through the use of cheat devices, shift the coding over to the expansion pak and be able to use it to enhance Conker's graphics. This isn't possible on the actual console though, as N64 cheat devices have the expansion pak range reserved for the code handler/generator. But I'd imagine that there are ways around that.

SpikeyAss

in what ways were they enhanced (beyond an occasional effect, or maybe some nicer textures)

I've only seen it discussed in some threads on a forum (called NeoGaf) so I'm not sure, as I haven't actually seen a video of it either. I'd imagine just the odd effects though, but I've not a clue really :|

I see, well I can't think of it doing that much tbh, like I said the RCP was could be pretty limiting in sheer polygon counts if the microcodes weren't messed with (and about 9/10 times they weren't. and it seems they weren't in that game either judging by the polygon quality)

though with N64 you don't need as many polygons as the others.

#25 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

Very nice information. Thanks especially for the chart and video comparison links, Nameless... Looks like I'll be keeping an eye out for DK64.

MrMartinLee

Do keep an eye on DK64 since it's easily the best-looking and most massive 3D platformer game on the 64 imo :)

#26 Posted by Bubble_Man (3100 posts) -

[QUOTE="Talldude80"]

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

You can still play a third or so of Perfect Dark without an expansion pak.

SpikeyAss

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

Exactly. So it's technically wrong to say 'Perfect Dark requires an expansion pak'.

Not really. Single-player is by far the main part of a game (especially from back then). Wouldn't be worth having otherwise.

#27 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="Emerald_Warrior"]

Really? It's not even one those games that don't require it, but it still enhances the game?

Darkman2007

It doesn't make any use of the expansion pak whatsoever.

So no, it's not like Perfect Dark, where the expansion pak isn't required yet if used it'll still make enhancements to the game. I know, it's very surprising - and a shame too, as the inclusion of expansion pak use would've made the frame-rate better.

I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen.

If it required it, it could have dynamic lighting during gameplay like DK64 did and possibly better textures. If it only supported it then it could either have a higher res or run faster.

By the way, that custom microcode is mostly disabling hardware Z-buffering which killed performance on the 64. That's why N64 games with custom microcode like World Driver and Indy have stable framerates with high draw distance and no fog.

And then there's the "Turbo3D" mode which wasn't really used in games but all it would do is remove all the effects the 64 could do (like Z-buffering, linear filtering, mip-mapping, reflection mapping, anti-aliasing, ect.) and make the games look like Saturn and PS1 games, albeit they would run much faster and have more poly detail (supposedly up to 500k polys on paper). But like I said we haven't seen any game really use it since it would degrade visual quality and Nintendo discouraged it's use.

#28 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

Rare did intend to make use of the expansion pak but ran out of time. So instead of storing the additional memory on it they programmed special memory locations in the RAM. This is why people have been able to access the coding and, through the use of cheat devices, shift the coding over to the expansion pak and be able to use it to enhance Conker's graphics. This isn't possible on the actual console though, as N64 cheat devices have the expansion pak range reserved for the code handler/generator. But I'd imagine that there are ways around that.

SpikeyAss

in what ways were they enhanced (beyond an occasional effect, or maybe some nicer textures)

I've only seen it discussed in some threads on a forum (called NeoGaf) so I'm not sure, as I haven't actually seen a video of it either. I'd imagine just the odd effects though, but I've not a clue really :|

I call bull. As far I as know Rare didn't include the Exp. Pak support for Conker and Banjo-Tooie because they wanted better sales (both games still sold less than B-K and DK64 tho).

#29 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="Talldude80"]

multiplayer, but no single player campaign

Bubble_Man

Exactly. So it's technically wrong to say 'Perfect Dark requires an expansion pak'.

Not really. Single-player is by far the main part of a game (especially from back then). Wouldn't be worth having otherwise.

It isn't required to play the game, that's a fact. But is it required to actually get the full experience of the game and therefore enjoy the game more? Yes.

I never stated in my post that it was worth playing without it. I simply mentioned that it wasn't required just to inform the OP, that's all.

#30 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"][QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

It doesn't make any use of the expansion pak whatsoever.

So no, it's not like Perfect Dark, where the expansion pak isn't required yet if used it'll still make enhancements to the game. I know, it's very surprising - and a shame too, as the inclusion of expansion pak use would've made the frame-rate better.

nameless12345

I don't think extra RAM would have helped that game much , it was pushing the N64's RCP (the GPU) quite a bit with quite a few polygons on screen.

If it required it, it could have dynamic lighting during gameplay like DK64 did and possibly better textures. If it only supported it then it could either have a higher res or run faster.

By the way, that custom microcode is mostly disabling hardware Z-buffering which killed performance on the 64. That's why N64 games with custom microcode like World Driver and Indy have stable framerates with high draw distance and no fog.

And then there's the "Turbo3D" mode which wasn't really used in games but all it would do is remove all the effects the 64 could do (like Z-buffering, linear filtering, mip-mapping, reflection mapping, anti-aliasing, ect.) and make the games look like Saturn and PS1 games, albeit they would run much faster and have more poly detail (supposedly up to 500k polys on paper). But like I said we haven't seen any game really use it since it would degrade visual quality and Nintendo discouraged it's use.

thats exactly what I said :P thing is, very few were willing to mess around with the microcodes, it took too long , especially when you start realising time constraints and budget/staff limits (remember most games cost a fraction of what they do now, with about 1/10 of the staff too)
#31 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

I call bull. As far I as know Rare didn't include the Exp. Pak support for Conker and Banjo-Tooie because they wanted better sales (both games still sold less than B-K and DK64 tho).

nameless12345

Note: "As far as I know" - where's your evidence?

Perfect Dark still sold 2.5 million copies worldwide despite technically requiring the expansion pak, or at least requiring it to be any fun (as I said in my previous post). Even then, Majora's Mask, another late title for the console, sold 3.5 million copies. I don't see why Rare would have been worried about the game selling badly?

#32 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I call bull. As far I as know Rare didn't include the Exp. Pak support for Conker and Banjo-Tooie because they wanted better sales (both games still sold less than B-K and DK64 tho).

SpikeyAss

Note: "As far as I know" - where's your evidence?

Perfect Dark still sold 2.5 million copies worldwide despite technically requiring the expansion pak, or at least requiring it to be any fun (as I said in my previous post). Even then, Majora's Mask, another late title for the console, sold 3.5 million copies. I don't see why Rare would have been worried about the game selling badly?

it limits it, but given the fact that DK64 had it bundled with the game, and the expansion pack was relatively cheap , it wasn't a hugely limiting factor. that said, Im not sure they had expansion pack support , usually those kind of things are in the design early on , with the programming accomodating this from the begining, it sounds a bit odd to just abandon it and lose time. if you remember, Banjo Tooie also never used it. what I do think might have happened , was that due to the game being delayed , and reworked (and frankly the finished product looks quite a bit better than the early versions) , the game should have probably had RAM pack support, but didn't, as it was factored in too late.
#33 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

I call bull. As far I as know Rare didn't include the Exp. Pak support for Conker and Banjo-Tooie because they wanted better sales (both games still sold less than B-K and DK64 tho).

SpikeyAss

Note: "As far as I know" - where's your evidence?

Perfect Dark still sold 2.5 million copies worldwide despite technically requiring the expansion pak, or at least requiring it to be any fun (as I said in my previous post). Even then, Majora's Mask, another late title for the console, sold 3.5 million copies. I don't see why Rare would have been worried about the game selling badly?

Well, Conker was a M-rated game so fear that it might sell poorly was justified (and it did sell rather poorly). DK64 was designed for the Exp. Pak since start and was also bundled with it, Majora was advertised a lot (since it's a Zelda game it was bound to sell well) and Perfect Dark didn't technically require it, like you said. As for Tooie - they did plan supporting it but dropped support so some extra copies would be sold (since not every N64 owner had the Pak). Besides, both of these games came out late in the 64's life cycle so they were bound to be a little overlooked.

#34 Posted by sonic_spark (4846 posts) -

Some games are unplayable or are stripped down in the amount of modes you can play.

Perfect Dark loses almost half of its options.

I don't even think you can play Donkey Kong 64 without it.

#35 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

Well, Conker was a M-rated game so fear that it might sell poorly was justified (and it did sell rather poorly). DK64 was designed for the Exp. Pak since start and was also bundled with it, Majora was advertised a lot (since it's a Zelda game it was bound to sell well) and Perfect Dark didn't technically require it, like you said. As for Tooie - they did plan supporting it but dropped support so some extra copies would be sold (since not every N64 owner had the Pak). Besides, both of these games came out late in the 64's life cycle so they were bound to be a little overlooked.

nameless12345

I see your point on the advertising, seeing as Nintendo didn't advetise Conker at all. But I don't think Rare worrying about sales wouldn't have affected their decision on wether to make use of the expansion pak or not. Other games that require the expansion pak like DK64, Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark sold really well, so many N64 owners would already have the expansion pak. And considering the game was released in 2001 expansion paks were at that time a lot cheaper too.

#36 Posted by nameless12345 (15125 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Well, Conker was a M-rated game so fear that it might sell poorly was justified (and it did sell rather poorly). DK64 was designed for the Exp. Pak since start and was also bundled with it, Majora was advertised a lot (since it's a Zelda game it was bound to sell well) and Perfect Dark didn't technically require it, like you said. As for Tooie - they did plan supporting it but dropped support so some extra copies would be sold (since not every N64 owner had the Pak). Besides, both of these games came out late in the 64's life cycle so they were bound to be a little overlooked.

SpikeyAss

I see your point on the advertising, seeing as Nintendo didn't advetise Conker at all. But I don't think Rare worrying about sales wouldn't have affected their decision on wether to make use of the expansion pak or not. Other games that require the expansion pak like DK64, Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark sold really well, so many N64 owners would already have the expansion pak. And considering the game was released in 2001 expansion paks were at that time a lot cheaper too.

Well what's your explanation? I also think it's kinda silly they didn't make them require (or atleast support) the Pak given that they would benefit from it.

#37 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

Well, Conker was a M-rated game so fear that it might sell poorly was justified (and it did sell rather poorly). DK64 was designed for the Exp. Pak since start and was also bundled with it, Majora was advertised a lot (since it's a Zelda game it was bound to sell well) and Perfect Dark didn't technically require it, like you said. As for Tooie - they did plan supporting it but dropped support so some extra copies would be sold (since not every N64 owner had the Pak). Besides, both of these games came out late in the 64's life cycle so they were bound to be a little overlooked.

nameless12345

I see your point on the advertising, seeing as Nintendo didn't advetise Conker at all. But I don't think Rare worrying about sales wouldn't have affected their decision on wether to make use of the expansion pak or not. Other games that require the expansion pak like DK64, Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark sold really well, so many N64 owners would already have the expansion pak. And considering the game was released in 2001 expansion paks were at that time a lot cheaper too.

Well what's your explanation? I also think it's kinda silly they didn't make them require (or atleast support) the Pak given that they would benefit from it.

It's like I said, Rare must've ran out of time. It only makes sense when you consider what I've mentioned about the sales. I'm sure they would have at least implemented support for the expansion pak if they had the chance, though, considering how great the game looks anyway, they probably weren't too bothered about it and likely just wanted to spend their time polishing up the game instead.

The Gamecube was released only months after it's release, so naturally they had to be quick with CBFD in order to start development on their first Gamecube game - they weren't a massive company that could be developing several console games at a time.

#38 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="nameless12345"]

[QUOTE="SpikeyAss"]

I see your point on the advertising, seeing as Nintendo didn't advetise Conker at all. But I don't think Rare worrying about sales wouldn't have affected their decision on wether to make use of the expansion pak or not. Other games that require the expansion pak like DK64, Majora's Mask and Perfect Dark sold really well, so many N64 owners would already have the expansion pak. And considering the game was released in 2001 expansion paks were at that time a lot cheaper too.

SpikeyAss

Well what's your explanation? I also think it's kinda silly they didn't make them require (or atleast support) the Pak given that they would benefit from it.

It's like I said, Rare must've ran out of time. It only makes sense when you consider what I've mentioned about the sales. I'm sure they would have at least implemented support for the expansion pak if they had the chance, though, considering how great the game looks anyway, they probably weren't too bothered about it and likely just wanted to spend their time polishing up the game instead.

The Gamecube was released only months after it's release, so naturally they had to be quick with CBFD in order to start development on their first Gamecube game - they weren't a massive company that could be developing several console games at a time.

well their first (and as far as I know, only) GC game ,was Star Fox Adventures, which was originally an N64 project that was developed most likely alongside (if started considerably later) CBFD
#39 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

Yeah that was their only GC game. I had forgotten that it originally started on the N64 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3ud6pa6508&feature=related

The game was going to feature a 512 MB cartridge...That's pretty damn big for an N64 game. That's almost the size of a CD.

But anyway, it still goes to show that Rare had to hurry. Nintendo were probably harrassing them to hurry in order to start working on the GC.

#40 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

Yeah that was their only GC game. I had forgotten that it originally started on the N64 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQ7nyNf2a1M

The game was going to feature a 512 MB cartridge...That's pretty damn big for an N64 game. That's almost the size of a CD.

SpikeyAss
I think youre refering to megabits , not megabytes. Nintendo (and Sega during the SMS/MD era) tended to use Megabits to make the carts look more impressive, since 1Megabye is 8 megabits. therefore the 512 megabits, were in fact 64Megabytes, same size as RE2 on the N64.
#41 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

I think youre refering to megabits , not megabytes. Nintendo (and Sega during the SMS/MD era) tended to use Megabits to make the carts look more impressive, since 1Megabye is 8 megabits. therefore the 512 megabits, were in fact 64Megabytes, same size as RE2 on the N64.Darkman2007

I read about it on unseen64, but yeah, you must be right in that it's megabits. Would've been way too high on the production costs otherwise.

#42 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"]I think youre refering to megabits , not megabytes. Nintendo (and Sega during the SMS/MD era) tended to use Megabits to make the carts look more impressive, since 1Megabye is 8 megabits. therefore the 512 megabits, were in fact 64Megabytes, same size as RE2 on the N64.SpikeyAss

I read about it on unseen64, but yeah, you must be right in that it's megabits. Would've been way too high on the production costs otherwise.

exactly, there were carts that were considerably higher capacity than what you found at home in the arcades, but obviously arcades are on an entirely different price range. even 64Mb was a quite alot for a cart back then , though they somehow managed to put RE2 on it, however compressed. though you have to remember, most PS1 games, are not even a full 650Mb, Ive checked most of my PS1 games, and most are arond 200-350Mb at most, RE2 was probably the same , just with 2 discs like that.
#43 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

Yeah RE2 on the N64 is very impressive. Most notably because it's one of the only N64 games that has FMV's, and they look very good despite the heavy compression. The N64 actually does FMV's well as the RDRAM is great for playing them.

And I find that, on average, a PS1 game takes up about 350 MB's.

#44 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

Yeah RE2 on the N64 is very impressive. Most notably because it's one of the only N64 games that has FMV's, and they look very good despite the heavy compression. The N64 actually does FMV's well as the RDRAM is great for playing them.

And I find that, on average, a PS1 game takes up about 350 MB's.

SpikeyAss
well the N64 does have some support for some compression codecs, though I don't think its MPEG (possible, but it was expensive) the PS1 had a great FMV engine, it uses MJPEG that worked quite well., its in hardware so that means more consistent resullts. the Saturn sadly, has no hardware support for compression , meaning its all software base (ie, dependent on the engine a dev creates) hence why the quality of the FMVs can range from awful to as good if not better than PS1 (Burning Rangers comes to mind) but it does make you wonder, if you were to take out the FMVs and recorded music in most PS1/Saturn games, how close would they be to a 64MB cart. though its important to note alot of PS/Saturn games still used sound chip music, and both had arguably better sound capabilities than the N64
#45 Posted by SpikeyAss (221 posts) -

well the N64 does have some support for some compression codecs, though I don't think its MPEG (possible, but it was expensive) the PS1 had a great FMV engine, it uses MJPEG that worked quite well., its in hardware so that means more consistent resullts. the Saturn sadly, has no hardware support for compression , meaning its all software base (ie, dependent on the engine a dev creates) hence why the quality of the FMVs can range from awful to as good if not better than PS1 (Burning Rangers comes to mind) but it does make you wonder, if you were to take out the FMVs and recorded music in most PS1/Saturn games, how close would they be to a 64MB cart. though its important to note alot of PS/Saturn games still used sound chip music, and both had arguably better sound capabilities than the N64Darkman2007

You basically said it all.

On PS1/Saturn multi-plats games you'll notice that the FMV's on the PS1 version will almost always look better. Rayman is an example of this. But Burning Rangers looks great, even better than practically anything I've seen from PS1 games.

It's hard to argue wether the N64 has better sound capabilities than the PS1/Saturn as I don't think we've ever seen the N64 pushed to it's limits in the sound department. The N64's GPU can process sound for example, but seeing as it takes away processing power for other stuff it's very rarely used. The Saturn is better than the PS1 in the audio department, even if only a little. The PS1's sound chip is still impressive though; I mean, the voices in One Winged Angel from FF7 are produced by the sound chip - that's amazing!

#46 Posted by Darkman2007 (17929 posts) -

[QUOTE="Darkman2007"] well the N64 does have some support for some compression codecs, though I don't think its MPEG (possible, but it was expensive) the PS1 had a great FMV engine, it uses MJPEG that worked quite well., its in hardware so that means more consistent resullts. the Saturn sadly, has no hardware support for compression , meaning its all software base (ie, dependent on the engine a dev creates) hence why the quality of the FMVs can range from awful to as good if not better than PS1 (Burning Rangers comes to mind) but it does make you wonder, if you were to take out the FMVs and recorded music in most PS1/Saturn games, how close would they be to a 64MB cart. though its important to note alot of PS/Saturn games still used sound chip music, and both had arguably better sound capabilities than the N64SpikeyAss

You basically said it all.

On PS1/Saturn multi-plats games you'll notice that the FMV's on the PS1 version will almost always look better. Rayman is an example of this. But Burning Rangers looks great, even better than practically anything I've seen from PS1 games.

It's hard to argue wether the N64 has better sound capabilities than the PS1/Saturn as I don't think we've ever seen the N64 pushed to it's limits in the sound department. The N64's GPU can process sound for example, but seeing as it takes away processing power for other stuff it's very rarely used. The Saturn is better than the PS1 in the audio department, even if only a little. The PS1's sound chip is still impressive though; I mean, the voices in One Winged Angel from FF7 are produced by the sound chip - that's amazing!

yes, the N64 has no sound chip , the CPU or the GPU process the sound, which creates an interesting situation , where potentially it could beat the other 2 , but only if 100% of the system was used for it, obviously in real life it doesn't happen.

the Saturn has more PCM channels than the PS, it has a 68000 as a sound processor (which is different than a sound chip) , and a DSP for various sound effects (although sadly due to Sega not providing documentation , it wasn't used often), the FM engine is very good too , but it lacks ADPCM support (compression), and I wouldn't be surprised if it was quite expensive too.

though an example of voice work via a sound chip (though it might be sampled , who knows, though sampling on the Saturn is not the greatest idea) could be www.youtube.com/watch?v=PItZCfsSddM

also , there is a Saturn music software that seems to use the sound system , its actually very impressive

www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8gPNEvr1Vw

PS1 had less sound channels, and no sound processor, but it had ADPCM support, which was quite an advantage at times , given that both machines had 512Kb of sound RAM.

Im still wondering what format the FMVs on RE2 N64 are , I wonder if its the Cinipak or TrueMotion codecs that were used on the Saturn often.