Is Dark Souls challenging or just badly designed?

The controls are poorly designed, too many actions are linked to too few buttons, like for example you have to press the circle button for both rolling and jumping, you end up jumping when you want to roll, and rolling when you want to jump.

The targeting system isn't good either, when you lock on to an enemy the camera stays focused on them and you can't move it, sometimes your whole view would get blocked behind trees and you can no longer see anything since you can't move the camera. You also have to be very close to an enemy to lock on, so you can't keep an empty space between you and the enemy to see what they're doing.

The way you walk on ledges, cliffs or other thin paths is cheap, no specific method to traverse them was ever designed, meaning you have to walk so carefully or you will fall off and die, even while you're fighting an enemy.

There is no map either, which makes you run around in circles for hours, and worse is the game gives you no sense of direction, making you even more lost.

As for the actual combat, I've heard about how strategic it's supposed to be, but you use the same strategy for every enemy, hit and run, or circle around them and wait for an opening to attack. This became boring and repetitive after a while. As for the poweful enemies, I don't understand how giving them attacks that were stronger and faster than yours and high hp makes the game any more challenging rather than tedious and frustrating.

As for the tutorials, the devs often seemed too lazy to explain fundemental gameplay techniques, like for example teaching you how to properly parry, and this was praised as in "Dark Souls doesn't hold the player's hand like other games".

Any other game would have been panned for these issues, but Dark Souls is somehow acclaimed for them. The game really is difficult, but it's difficult for all the wrong reasons.

Sounds like you want your hand to be held to me.

Any game that doesn't allow frequent saving is badly designed.

after playing for 24 hours, id say both. some enemies are just spamming you with attacks while others are predictable to defeat. the controls are fair tbh but the main gripe for me is the knockbacks and area of attack that cause the most frustration especially the dragon at the bridge where its fire attack is able to clip through the terrain.

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Sounds like you want your hand to be held to me.

syztem

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Ricardomz

And yet, I've heard people claim it's one of the easiest games to go through if you know what you're doing.

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Ricardomz

Actually I found it very unrewarding. A game is supposed to have some form of story or plot to keep you engaged. Constantly wanting to see how the story unfolds is what motivates you to carry on in a game. Dark souls had no story, it had lore but no story. There was just one pointless cinematic in the beginning where you hear someone mumbling about some fires and dragons and that's pretty much it.

It's not hard. It can create the illusion that is is, but really it just makes you pay attention. The entire game is composed of patterns and such, and if you just concentrate, you pick them all up and the game becomes a breeze. Muscle memory really.

[QUOTE="Ricardomz"]

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Al-Manyouk

Actually I found it very unrewarding. A game is supposed to have some form of story or plot to keep you engaged. Constantly wanting to see how the story unfolds is what motivates you to carry on in a game. Dark souls had no story, it had lore but no story. There was just one pointless cinematic in the beginning where you hear someone mumbling about some fires and dragons and that's pretty much it.

How old are you?

Games have never needed a story to succeed. It's a medium that was built on nothing but mechanics.

They should be fun to play, not fun to watch.

"i suck at the game.  blame the controls"

Any game that doesn't allow frequent saving is badly designed.

Bigboi500

Its hard because at first you dont know what you are doing.

If you take your time and know the what every boss does, its not that hard. The only time I really had problems was with the first Black Knight and Havel, because I took them on way to early. After that none of the bosses killed me more then 3 times

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

Any game that doesn't allow frequent saving is badly designed.

demi0227_basic

You're right, I meant to say checkpoints. I don't like going through an entire dungeon and fighting a boss, dying and having to go through it all over again. I'm only going by Demon Souls since I've not played Dark Souls.Bigboi500

Dark Souls is more generous with checkpoints. Rarely are you far from a bonfire before fighting a boss.

I think they were deliberately going for a frustrating kick in the nuts aimed at people with stockholm syndrome :P ...so I think the game delivers perfectly.Black_Knight_00

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]You're right, I meant to say checkpoints. I don't like going through an entire dungeon and fighting a boss, dying and having to go through it all over again. I'm only going by Demon Souls since I've not played Dark Souls.c_rake

Dark Souls is more generous with checkpoints. Rarely are you far from a bonfire before fighting a boss.

Thanks for letting me know.

It's not hard. It can create the illusion that is is, but really it just makes you pay attention. The entire game is composed of patterns and such, and if you just concentrate, you pick them all up and the game becomes a breeze. Muscle memory really.

The_Red_0ne

Mostly the illusion comes from the franchise actually penalizing you for death, which it does in about 3 different ways. Most games don't penalize you at all and you just restart a few seconds, maybe a minute before you died. But you're not actually dieing in Dark/Demon Souls anymore than you are in any other game, assuming that game isn't a total pushover.

Neither. The difficulty is just right and the game is well designed.

First off, the controls are fine and function perfectly. The only time you can jump is out of a full on sprint. It isn't like you'll try rolling to the side and just randomly jump, no, you're simply failing to grasp a very basic mechanic. If you want to roll after a sprint, just slow down a little bit and then roll and you'll avoid jumping. 

The aiming system is a bit off at times, especially when your forced into small corridors with several enemies. However, I've never had this issue of being too close to the enemy and not being able to tell what they're doing. The aiming system isn't perfect and leaves something to be desired, but that isn't one of them.

You have to be careful while on ledges, why does it need a whole new mechanic to traverse them. Would you prefer it to be like Uncharted where you're simply locked on a ledge and have zero threat of death? It requires precision and patience, but it isn't cheap. Especially since many of these edges simply ask you to move forward.

Each time you enter a new area, text appears that takes up the entire screen. Remember what various locations are called, and explore. A map isn't necessary, especially since the world isn't that big and many areas have a very distinct art style so it's rather easy to remember where you have, or haven't been. If you really want a map, make one. That game doesn't tell you where to go or what to do because you can complete each area from the get go however you see fit.

Interesting that you complain about a lack of strategy and then immediately talk about how cheap the more powerful enemies are. Did it occur to you that you're using the wrong strategies on those more powerful enemies? If I think about the Undead Burg, I know that I'm going to block normal attacks and then quickly slash the lesser enemies, I'm going to bait the spear zombies by attacking them and then blocking their retaliation allowing me to hurt them, I'm going to roll away from the firebombs then retaliate with a bow, backstab the Black Knight, parry him once or twice to finish him off, and then I'm going to two hand a Claymore to battle the Taurus demon after I plunge attack his face. There's already plenty of variety right there.

The game teaches you the controls and gives you some pretty simple enemies to practice on. How does it not teach you how to parry? It tells you what button to push, and so long as you know what "parry" means it should be pretty straight forward. 

[QUOTE="Ricardomz"]

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Metamania

And yet, I've heard people claim it's one of the easiest games to go through if you know what you're doing.

well any game is easy if you know what you're doing.

[QUOTE="Ricardomz"]

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

Metamania

And yet, I've heard people claim it's one of the easiest games to go through if you know what you're doing.

Challenging yes, but Dark Souls is the right kind of challenging. 

No map and little sense of direction? Believe it or not, this is something that draws in a good number of players. Think about all the games you've played recently. Lots of them have extended intros with long cutscenes and many tool-tip style hints. There are many linear games out there that have your path set from the beginning. As a long-time Metroid player, I appreciate that I have freedom to explore and that I may clear areas before what normal progression would be.

Difficulty? A lot of Dark Souls' difficulty comes from unfamiliarity, I think. All those traps and hidden enemies will most certainly cause you pain your first time through. But if you pay attention to enemy patterns, and try different approaches for different enemies, you may find yourself able to predict what hazards are ahead. It is important to plan your course of attack. (There's an enemy behind that corner. I should eliminate that enemy before crossing that narrow bridge. I'm close to a boss fight. Better provoke enemies one at a time to have healing for the boss.) In addition, almost every attack from every enemy in the game can be either evaded or parried. There are only a few instances where I would label the game difficulty cheap (Silver Knight Archers). As a whole I find the game much more fair and rewarding that something like max difficulty in an FPS game, where 'difficulty' comes from oversized health pools and endlessly respawning enemies.

As for controls, that will vary between players. I've never really a problem with them. What the game could stand to do, however, is explain its mechanics better. You are'nt really given enough information about certain things such as: Weapon stats scaling with the appropriate parameter, weapon effects like Divine/Occult/Chaos, and Adjustment stats for Catalysts and Talismans. It can be hard as a new player to understand that past a certain level, it's not really worth investing in some stats or that while a Lightning Uchigatana sounds cool, a Regular +15 Uchigatana with Crystal Magic Weapon applied will out-damage it with the appropriate stat investment.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

[QUOTE="Ricardomz"]

I don't find it to be badly designed, it's just meant to be tough as nails. But in the end I find it to be very rewarding.

firefox59

And yet, I've heard people claim it's one of the easiest games to go through if you know what you're doing.

Challenging yes, but Dark Souls is the right kind of challenging.

No map and little sense of direction? Believe it or not, this is something that draws in a good number of players. Think about all the games you've played recently. Lots of them have extended intros with long cutscenes and many tool-tip style hints. There are many linear games out there that have your path set from the beginning. As a long-time Metroid player, I appreciate that I have freedom to explore and that I may clear areas before what normal progression would be.

gpuFX16

The exploration aspects of Dark Souls are my favorite parts of the game. It's just an amazingly fun and rewarding game to explore. Even open world games today tend to fail at giving you a reason to explore them, the only impetus being to collect 100/100 thingamajigs so you can unlock a trophy. Dark Souls has whole environments that are hidden and entirely optional - I'm thinking about the painting and the sandy beach with the dragon statue at the end (can't remember the names; been awhile). One of the best game worlds I've ever ventured into.

Also, I agree on what you're saying about these extended tutorials most games are bogged down with today. Nobody wants to pay for instruction books anymore, so they have to turn the first 15 minutes of their games into these garbage sequences. The first 15 minutes that could be spent sucking you in with a killer intro is instead spent on "push O to duck under pipes and low hanging obstacles." Enough.

The exploration aspects of Dark Souls are my favorite parts of the game. It's just an amazingly fun and rewarding game to explore. Even open world games today tend to fail at giving you a reason to explore them, the only impetus being to collect 100/100 thingamajigs so you can unlock a trophy. Dark Souls has whole environments that are hidden and entirely optional - I'm thinking about the painting and the sandy beach with the dragon statue at the end (can't remember the names; been awhile). One of the best game worlds I've ever ventured into.

Ish_basic

The controls are poorly designed, too many actions are linked to too few buttons, like for example you have to press the circle button for both rolling and jumping, you end up jumping when you want to roll, and rolling when you want to jump.

The targeting system isn't good either, when you lock on to an enemy the camera stays focused on them and you can't move it, sometimes your whole view would get blocked behind trees and you can no longer see anything since you can't move the camera. You also have to be very close to an enemy to lock on, so you can't keep an empty space between you and the enemy to see what they're doing.

The way you walk on ledges, cliffs or other thin paths is cheap, no specific method to traverse them was ever designed, meaning you have to walk so carefully or you will fall off and die, even while you're fighting an enemy.

There is no map either, which makes you run around in circles for hours, and worse is the game gives you no sense of direction, making you even more lost.

As for the actual combat, I've heard about how strategic it's supposed to be, but you use the same strategy for every enemy, hit and run, or circle around them and wait for an opening to attack. This became boring and repetitive after a while. As for the poweful enemies, I don't understand how giving them attacks that were stronger and faster than yours and high hp makes the game any more challenging rather than tedious and frustrating.

As for the tutorials, the devs often seemed too lazy to explain fundemental gameplay techniques, like for example teaching you how to properly parry, and this was praised as in "Dark Souls doesn't hold the player's hand like other games".

Any other game would have been panned for these issues, but Dark Souls is somehow acclaimed for them. The game really is difficult, but it's difficult for all the wrong reasons.

Al-Manyouk

I agree 100% but anyone who critizes Dark Souls is a troll and a crybaby. :P

[QUOTE="syztem"]

Sounds like you want your hand to be held to me.

Lulu_Lulu

Sounds like you're still complaining about RPGs to me.

How old are you?

Games have never needed a story to succeed. It's a medium that was built on nothing but mechanics.

They should be fun to play, not fun to watch.

syztem

Age has absolutely nothing to do it. Some games; especially games like these, benefit from having some semblance of a story. This isn't Pong or pacman where there is absolutely no need for a story. Games like these create goals with the use of a story giving purpose.

The game is VERY easy once you learn how to fight. I for one disagree with pretty much all your complaints. It was refreshing to play a game where I have to learn the enemies behavior to succeed. I understand many need their hands held through the game though, like you, and that's ok. If that's what floats your' boat. Dark Souls is one of the best games I've played in a long, long time.demi0227_basic

This hand held nonsense that you and your choir keeps singing is nothing but BAD design. A game informs you about the mechanics, not hide it under a rock. I am not saying this game has done it; cause I have not played it long enough, but the lack or the absense of instructing the gamer on the mechancis of the world is bad design. I guess you would have a blast playing EVE without a tutorial. :|

[QUOTE="syztem"]

How old are you?

Games have never needed a story to succeed. It's a medium that was built on nothing but mechanics.

They should be fun to play, not fun to watch.

Pedro

Age has absolutely nothing to do it. Some games; especially games like these, benefit from having some semblance of a story. This isn't Pong or pacman where there is absolutely no need for a story. Games like these create goals with the use of a story giving purpose.

Actually, if I remember correctly, even though there wasn't a HUGE plot or anything like that, there was a small tale of how Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man met and fell in love in the earlier games, but that's about it. Just saying.

First off, the controls are fine and function perfectly. The only time you can jump is out of a full on sprint. It isn't like you'll try rolling to the side and just randomly jump, no, you're simply failing to grasp a very basic mechanic. If you want to roll after a sprint, just slow down a little bit and then roll and you'll avoid jumping. 

The aiming system is a bit off at times, especially when your forced into small corridors with several enemies. However, I've never had this issue of being too close to the enemy and not being able to tell what they're doing. The aiming system isn't perfectand leaves something to be desired, but that isn't one of them.

You have to be careful while on ledges, why does it need a whole new mechanic to traverse them. Would you prefer it to be like Uncharted where you're simply locked on a ledge and have zero threat of death? It requires precision and patience, but it isn't cheap. Especially since many of these edges simply ask you to move forward.

Each time you enter a new area, text appears that takes up the entire screen. Remember what various locations are called, and explore. A map isn't necessary, especially since the world isn't that big and many areas have a very distinct art style so it's rather easy to remember where you have, or haven't been. If you really want a map, make one. That game doesn't tell you where to go or what to do because you can complete each area from the get go however you see fit.

Interesting that you complain about a lack of strategy and then immediately talk about how cheap the more powerful enemies are. Did it occur to you that you're using the wrong strategies on those more powerful enemies? If I think about the Undead Burg, I know that I'm going to block normal attacks and then quickly slash the lesser enemies, I'm going to bait the spear zombies by attacking them and then blocking their retaliation allowing me to hurt them, I'm going to roll away from the firebombs then retaliate with a bow, backstab the Black Knight, parry him once or twice to finish him off, and then I'm going to two hand a Claymore to battle the Taurus demon after I plunge attack his face. There's already plenty of variety right there.

The game teaches you the controls and gives you some pretty simple enemies to practice on. How does it not teach you how to parry? It tells you what button to push, and so long as you know what "parry" means it should be pretty straight forward. 

IndianaPwns39

I found the highlighted to be rather entertaining especially in the order it was written.

Actually, if I remember correctly, even though there wasn't a HUGE plot or anything like that, there was a small tale of how Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man met and fell in love in the earlier games, but that's about it. Just saying.

Metamania

LOL. Even Pac Man had a story.

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]

First off, the controls are fine and function perfectly. The only time you can jump is out of a full on sprint. It isn't like you'll try rolling to the side and just randomly jump, no, you're simply failing to grasp a very basic mechanic. If you want to roll after a sprint, just slow down a little bit and then roll and you'll avoid jumping. 

The aiming system is a bit off at times, especially when your forced into small corridors with several enemies. However, I've never had this issue of being too close to the enemy and not being able to tell what they're doing. The aiming system isn't perfect and leaves something to be desired, but that isn't one of them.

You have to be careful while on ledges, why does it need a whole new mechanic to traverse them. Would you prefer it to be like Uncharted where you're simply locked on a ledge and have zero threat of death? It requires precision and patience, but it isn't cheap. Especially since many of these edges simply ask you to move forward.

Each time you enter a new area, text appears that takes up the entire screen. Remember what various locations are called, and explore. A map isn't necessary, especially since the world isn't that big and many areas have a very distinct art style so it's rather easy to remember where you have, or haven't been. If you really want a map, make one. That game doesn't tell you where to go or what to do because you can complete each area from the get go however you see fit.

Interesting that you complain about a lack of strategy and then immediately talk about how cheap the more powerful enemies are. Did it occur to you that you're using the wrong strategies on those more powerful enemies? If I think about the Undead Burg, I know that I'm going to block normal attacks and then quickly slash the lesser enemies, I'm going to bait the spear zombies by attacking them and then blocking their retaliation allowing me to hurt them, I'm going to roll away from the firebombs then retaliate with a bow, backstab the Black Knight, parry him once or twice to finish him off, and then I'm going to two hand a Claymore to battle the Taurus demon after I plunge attack his face. There's already plenty of variety right there.

The game teaches you the controls and gives you some pretty simple enemies to practice on. How does it not teach you how to parry? It tells you what button to push, and so long as you know what "parry" means it should be pretty straight forward. 

Pedro

I found the highlighted to be rather entertaining especially in the order it was written.

Controls =/= aiming.  

[QUOTE="Lulu_Lulu"][QUOTE="syztem"]

Sounds like you want your hand to be held to me.

Yangire

Sounds like you're still complaining about RPGs to me.

Controls =/= aiming.  

IndianaPwns39

The way a game controls DIRECTLY affects your aiming. :|

[QUOTE="Yangire"]

[QUOTE="Lulu_Lulu"] Sounds like you've play too many RPG's to me.Lulu_Lulu

Sounds like you're still complaining about RPGs to me.

Yeah, you have this repetitious type of bitching that's hard to ignore.

[QUOTE="IndianaPwns39"]

Controls =/= aiming.  

Pedro

The way a game controls DIRECTLY affects your aiming. :|

You can control your character just fine. In fact, I'd say the controls from movement to blocking to attacking are truly the best of the genre. 

Aiming, in the sense of readying and firing a bow and arrow, works just fine so I get how that sounds confusing. In this sense, however, aiming refers to the auto targetting lock on system which is easy to control. You click the right thumb stick and then move it enemy to enemy. However, the camera gets in the way time to time (thus the auto lock function not being perfect) which is a camera issue, not a control issue. I'm always in control of my characters actions, even when the camera is being a little bitch.

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

Actually, if I remember correctly, even though there wasn't a HUGE plot or anything like that, there was a small tale of how Pac-Man and Ms. Pac-Man met and fell in love in the earlier games, but that's about it. Just saying.

Pedro

LOL. Even Pac Man had a story.

You can control your character just fine. In fact, I'd say the controls from movement to blocking to attacking are truly the best of the genre. 

Aiming, in the sense of readying and firing a bow and arrow, works just fine so I get how that sounds confusing. In this sense, however, aiming refers to the auto targetting lock on system which is easy to control. You click the right thumb stick and then move it enemy to enemy. However, the camera gets in the way time to time (thus the auto lock function not being perfect) which is a camera issue, not a control issue. I'm always in control of my characters actions, even when the camera is being a little bitch.

IndianaPwns39

I would simply leave at we differ in the scope of what is considered part of the controls.

Thank god Dark Souls has some of the best lore and story mechanics in any game this generation.Minishdriveby

Sure it does....:roll:

I don't know about Dark Souls, but Demon's Souls was pretty fair. I wouldn't call it challenging, nor would I call it badly designed...as long as you keep aware of your surroundings and don't rush you should be fine. That being said, I couldn't care less about that uninteresting story whatsoever

[QUOTE="Minishdriveby"] Thank god Dark Souls has some of the best lore and story mechanics in any game this generation.Pedro

Sure it does....:roll:

Sorry, you haven't searched for it. It's why I've gone back countless times and replayed the game.Minishdriveby