Is a dark souls fair game ?

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#51 Edited by turtlethetaffer (16378 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: you clearly aren't getting the point of what I'm saying. The whole point of dying in the game is so you learn how to approach the situations successfully.

Actually I don't even know why I'm bothering. This conversation has been had before and it always ends the same way. I'm arguing with someone who hasn't even played the game.

#52 Posted by JordanElek (17687 posts) -

Why design a game like that.... You realise there was no community when this thing was new, there was no one to discuss it with.

I have a movie recommendation for you.

Also your ealier post is just ridiculous. [...] I mentioned earlier last year that people who defend Dark Souls sound like Domestic Abuse victims..... I really can't shake that comparison.

Oh..... good, I can stop taking you seriously. Thanks!

#53 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer

I haven't played Watch Dogs but I'm pretty sure its fair..... Mostly.

Also if the point is to die then they should lubricate this feature as much as possible to make less frustrating. The Fact that the conditions and penalties for death are so extreme implies you're not suppose to die...... Do I need to play the play the game to realise thats just wrong ? I dobt it...... But like I said.... One day....

I think the only difference will be I'l then know exactly whats wrong with that type of design in detail....

I played Limbo..... That game is also built around dying, but you don't lose anything when you die.....

#54 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@JordanElek

What movie ? All I saw where TV Shows.

....... I like to believe people keep amusing my ramblings because they are not total bullshit..... Mostly because I'm not critising Dark Souls, I'm critising the design.... One that I've experienced many many times before.

If you told me RPG Elements in Streer Fighter is stupid, even though you haven't played the game I couldn't deny that logic..... Because you don't have to play it to know that design would unbalance the PvP.

How many years have I been doing this now ? Its been quite a while, everybody knows yet they keep throwing me bone..... Its not 100% bullsh!t, if I have to play it then sure.... When I have time.... I'l get around to it.

#55 Posted by Jeager_Titan (920 posts) -

Lol. Lulu_Lulu is getting on everyone's nerve.

#56 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@Jeager_Titan

No I'm not.... Everybody loves me..... :)

#57 Edited by superveka (108 posts) -

this game is really not for me i like hard games but i don't like to die in literary 3 sec upon entering new area

witcher 2 was a hard game ninja gaiden is a hard game so is halo reach on heroic or legendary and many more games , all of these games are hard but they all gave you a choice on how you want to fight yours enemies, souls series are in my opinion much more rigid and unforgiving and have very unfair situations , i mean who can denied that dragon on the bridge is unfair? you had no way of knowing that he is coming in that particular moment. you don't see a fucking dragon just fire and you are gone. treasure chests that eats you without giving you any clues that something in not right. that's fair ? i don't think so and i could go on for forever at giving examples of unfairness in this game.

#58 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@superveka

Whats funny thats not even hard.... Is it unforgiving ? Yes ! But hard or difficult ? Nope.

I've always believed for something to be hard it has to lure you into thinking that you stand a chance.... It needs to take you apart piece by piece......

Lol. I liken Dark Souls "difficulty" to a Quick Time Event.... One slip up and you're dead. :p and everybody knows QTE's aren't hard.... Their just cheap.

#59 Edited by Justin_G (198 posts) -

Dark Souls has a great presentation and design. for certain players; it's not for everyone.

#60 Edited by Planeforger (15401 posts) -

The actual game isn't terribly difficult once you get over the slight learning curve...

...but there are certainly cheap/unfair deaths in the game. The Bed of Chaos is the most obvious example ofpure bullshittery - you can't predict what areas of the floor will instantly kill you, so you just have to keep dying until things work out for you. Then there are mimics (which will instantly kill you without warning the first time you meet them), various traps, any areas that involve the game's wonky platforming mechanics, and all of the innocent pathways where super-strong monsters instakill you without warning.

Some of those are arguably 'fair', and death is insignificant in the game anyway, but...eh, there are definitely cheap deaths.

#61 Posted by PyratRum (525 posts) -

this game is really not for me i like hard games but i don't like to die in literary 3 sec upon entering new area

witcher 2 was a hard game ninja gaiden is a hard game so is halo reach on heroic or legendary and many more games , all of these games are hard but they all gave you a choice on how you want to fight yours enemies, souls series are in my opinion much more rigid and unforgiving and have very unfair situations , i mean who can denied that dragon on the bridge is unfair? you had no way of knowing that he is coming in that particular moment. you don't see a fucking dragon just fire and you are gone. treasure chests that eats you without giving you any clues that something in not right. that's fair ? i don't think so and i could go on for forever at giving examples of unfairness in this game.

You've mentioned the dragon thing twice already and I find it hilarious that you claim that you can't see him coming. It's perched up on the side of the bridge and the moment it roars and starts to fly is the moment you know it's gonna do a strafing run across that bridge. You have ample time to dodge/evade its attack.

Situational awareness and patience are key. Take your time, learn the mechanics and systems. It takes some time but you'll get into the groove soon enough.

Also, if you find yourself overwhelmed in a new area, take advantage of the summoning mechanics. If you run into a new area in Hollow form, put down your sign and join someone else game and learn how they go through the area and defeat the boss. Then come back and do it on your own or summon other players to help you.

#62 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@PyratRum

Well..... He didn't see it.... Is it his fault ? Its not like he played it with his eyes closed.

#63 Edited by superveka (108 posts) -

when i asked is a dark souls fair game i was thinking about when you first time take controller in yours hands do you have a fair fight or you have to know things in advance to beat it. i find a demon souls for me at least to be much more fairer experience than a dark souls

#64 Posted by superveka (108 posts) -

@pyratrum: when dragon trows fire at you first time you don't have any idea that he is coming yes after that you can see him on the bridge

#65 Posted by Luka024 (23 posts) -

Dark Souls, separating the old school gamers from the new age hipsters one dungeon at a time.

#66 Edited by syztem (7700 posts) -

It's fair most of the time, until you get to something like Bed of Chaos.

Dark Souls 2 kind of felt too fair.

#67 Edited by Anomaly1989 (17 posts) -

@superveka said:

i don't think so there are plenty of cheap dead's in game that is hard for me to say its a fair game

IMO, dark souls is too easy. This generation of gamers is soft. I get so bored playing games these days....

A game is not truly worthy of respect unless most people can not beat it without cheating.

To make the situation even worse - most games don't have a difficulty setting that is actually hard.

Games these days are about psychologically manipulating players into feeling good, instead of making actually good games with good gameplay.

I think I'm going to play some original X COM tomorrow. The only way I can have fun these days playing against the computer is to play games from pre-2000

You think Dark Souls is hard? LOL I don't know anyone who failed to beat that game.

#68 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@Anomaly1989

Thats because people confuse "Difficult" and "Punshing"

some people measure a game's difficulty pure by how often and how easy it is die or "fail" in it.

Its not that simple, yet this seems to be how people measure Dark Soul's Difficulty.

#69 Edited by XOne_ShotX91 (151 posts) -

@Planeforger: About the mimics. Thats not correct. I encountered my first mimic in Sens Fortress and it only took about 1/3 of my total health. Just saying.

#70 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@XOne_ShotX91

What if you only a 3rd of your total health at the time of encountering a mimic (because of a tough enemy encounter) ?

anyway I don't think the argument is how much health is taken but whether you actually had any chance of avoiding having to learn about these things without having to be lab guinea pig 1st. Its not any less fair if it doesn't insta kill you.

#71 Posted by XOne_ShotX91 (151 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: I couldve easily avoided it by listening to the warnings. The warnings are there, plain as day in the messages other users lay out. Instead of complaining about how "hard" this game is, they should just learn how to play it. It's not hard once you get the basics down. Block and wait for an opening, dont just run in swinging. If people do that, then they deserve to die.

#72 Posted by ShadowsDemon (10099 posts) -

Fair? Yes. Cheap? No.

The game is pure, unmatched skill. Raw strength. That's fair to me.

#73 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@XOne_ShotX91

Yeah good for... Whos going to warn the early adopters people who played the game the 1st ?

Also this was designed so that you could leave false information too.

Also Blocking and waiting for an opening is actually easy... It would much more difficult if it actually did require players to rush, but thats more of a nit pick than a critism.

#74 Posted by superveka (108 posts) -

@anomaly1989: so it was too easy for you when you just started playing? i find that difficult to believe . also i am not saying that is not possible to beat the game i am saying that there is too much unfair bits in this game so that new players are going to have very difficult time keeping up with a game progress . i am playing games since Atari era and yes there was some difficult games that i played and finished:} also i don't like to cheat in my games i like when i beat a game it was my doing not some weird glitch or bug that let me beat the game that is called bad design in games . i am playing demon souls right now and i love it .game is fair and hard but there is none of cheap deaths in it just yours doing, dark souls on the other hand have plenty of it like the guy with a demon tout i think is called he insta killed me i am yet to see enemy in demon souls to kill me with one shot . we are not talking about how hard game is combat and etc i am saying that dark souls is full of things that you like a player are unable to anticipate in any way . in valley of drakes "dead dragon"comes to life and instakills you wtf is that lol how are you going to prepare yourself for that it is unavoidable death and is feels very cheap to me.

#75 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@ShadowsDemon

No its not... If it was ... Its PvP would be better balanced.... You can and will die based on factors that are beyond player skill.... Like your Character's ever evolving stats (Equipments stats too)

if you wana see pure unmatched skill then play a fighting game.... See how skillfull you are when you don't have the option to increase your characters stats (and weapon stats).

#76 Posted by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

Dark Souls is pretty hard. Staying alive is a major challenge in that game. But any time you die, it's your fault 99% of the time. Either you overlooked something in the enemy patterns, forgot about a ledge, or there's an enemy that takes just too much health off of you you can adapt to every obstacle in the game with patience and a bit of trial and error. It's difficult, but not punishing like some of the old Nintendo games

#77 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

Trial and Error is the unfair part. Its also bad design.

I liken Dark Soul's Difficulty like trying to learn a new language using a dictionary instead of a Language Guide.

#78 Posted by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: Trial and error is an essential part of game design. Ever since the original arcade games. Trial and error is a learning tool for mechanics building, and I bet you any game you list has at least some form of trial and error. Dark Souls just does it well. You learn by doing. If you make a mistake, you shouldn't be so harshly punished. Rather, you see the outcome (losing your souls), and work to make sure it doesn't happen again. Mistakes are costly, but never brutally punishing.

#79 Posted by speedfog (2846 posts) -

A game has to be fun, I hated Dark Souls (Also played demon souls, hated it too, excpected much differents as people said on the gamespot forums, anyway.) The game punishes you TOO much when you die. I like a challenge but this wasn't fun at all to me. It felt cheap, a way to let players play the game longer or let it feel longer. It's like playing an early FPS on the hardest difficulty, the game is still short but cus of the difficulty you will be playing it much longer.

Not sure if anyone will understand what I try to say here. I would appriciate the game if they gave us a difficulty setting, an easier difficulty. Instead of throwing you in on the hardest way they can.
Plus I use games more to relax, not to be frustrated after a work day.

#80 Posted by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

@speedfog: I think Dark Souls is fun personally. I like knowing that I can become stronger just from learning the rules and the way the world in that game works. Not every game has to be "fun" in the traditional sense. I prefer to be engaged

#81 Edited by PurpleMan5000 (6580 posts) -

When I was playing Demon's Souls, I felt like I was doing nothing but exploiting the AI the whole time. It was just "Run up to trigger an attack, then backpedal a few steps so it misses, then strike". Over and over again. Then I got to some fat guy who casts a fire spell near the beginning of the 2nd level. The only way I could figure out that I could possibly beat that guy was to stand behind a column and wait for him to cast his fire, then run up and hit him, then run back behind column. Rinse and repeat. Surely there is some other way to play that doesn't feel so cheap? I don't know what it would be, though. My character was in heavy armor, so he was really slow, and he still couldn't take much damage.

#82 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

Trial and Error is not just an important part of video gaming... Its a very big part of our lives... Humans do literally everything by Trial and Error !

However, incase you haven't noticed, the past several hundred years of human evolution has been about trying to avoid learning something without fucking up 50 times over 1st. Learning by trial and error is not an effective way to teach, well, anything. So we use thinking techniques like Extrapolation that teach you how to proceed into new territory based on previous results so that you don't "fake it till you make it" I'm pretty sure Thomas Edison would prefered not to make 999 failed attempts at lightbulbs before finding the right one.... This is one of the biggest problem with our education system, nobody teaches how you to actually think.... They teach you maths, language and science but they don't teach how organise all this information so that you can recollect whenever you need it, Or what to do when presented with a word or an Equation you've never seen before... They wouldn't know how to reverse engineer Divsion by only teaching you Multiplication.

Now most games don't put such a hefty price on failure because they know Trial and Error is just going to turn alot of people away. However some games are clever in the way they present a new mechanic to the player, like Portal 2, any new element the game presents you is given to you as a toy play with for a lil bit before the game actually asks to solve a challenging puzzle with them. This allows you to solve many of the games puzzles without failing.... Its internal logic is by fair the fairest I've encounted in any puzzle game, you can pretty much predict whats going to happen if you try something. This is much better than trying something to find out whats going to happen.... You can literally enter a test chamber you've never seen before and solve it in your mind without making a single move, the 1st time they introduced the Repulsion Gel you learn everything about its behavior and if it appears in a different scenario then you know exactly what the effect will be without even having to test it.

Dark Souls just isn't designed that way. It would rather reinforce the prehistoric philosophy of "let me touch this fire and see what happens" and thats just bad design, and I firmly reccomend any who likes this design to stay extremely far away from the education system.

#83 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000

LOL ! Thats hilarrious.... I think I've played a badly designed game like that too.... It required me to wait for some highly predictable scenario then running up and attacking then hiding again or something like that.... Its funny hearing this problem from somebody else..... :)

You should check out fighting game tournaments.... They're pretty much all about exploitation, they discover unintended side effect in the game's mechanics and Exploit the living fuck out of it..... David Sirlin calls this Strategy "Playing to win". its by far the least elegant way to overcome an Obstacle and it appears so many times on Trine 2.... Theres a design flaw you can exploit with Amedeus to make him levitate himself.... He's not allowed to levitate anything he's standing on.... How ever if you stack objects on top of each other like two boxes... You can stand on the first box on top and levitate the second one underneath..... My brother showed it to me and I've been self levitating my way over everysingle obstacle ever since..... One time I actually did it in a Boss Fight.... He literally could not touch me because he's moveset doesn't cover what to do if I reach a specific height and stay there. ;)

#84 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (6580 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: Well, I would be interested in hearing if others who played the game play through the whole game like that or if I was just doing something wrong like not grinding to purchase better gear or something. I found the game sort of tedious and not much fun.

I played a lot of Rome: Total War back in the day, and it reminded me of how I could win a defensive siege with a unit of peasants and a unit of light cavalry by simply running the cavalry out of the gates and letting the AI chase it around in circles until the tower the peasants were standing next to eventually shot everything dead. It was incredibly cheap and ultimately unsatisfying, so I eventually made my own house rule that I wouldn't do that anymore. Well, along comes Demon's Souls (how many souls does a demon have?) and AI exploits were all I really had at my disposal, so I made a house rule that I would just stop playing Demon's Souls.

#85 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000

I had a simular experience in Final Fantasy XIII, I stumbled into a fight with an enemy who was clearly way more powerfull than me, long story short I devised a strategy to beat it by attacking only when its completely safe.... It took 30 minutes and was repetitive and dull as hell... But I did it.... I'm assuming the People who beat Dark Souls "Naked" employed a simular strategy.

Anyway after that I decided I wouldn't Buy any RPG, RPG Hybrid or Game with mild RPG Elements anymore.... Yep... I'm so hardcore I quit the entire genre ! :)

Don't get me wrong... I still plan on playing RPGs but I'm never ever going to pay for one.

#86 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (6580 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000

I had a simular experience in Final Fantasy XIII, I stumbled into a fight with an enemy who was clearly way more powerfull than me, long story short I devised a strategy to beat it by attacking only when its completely safe.... It took 30 minutes and was repetitive and dull as hell... But I did it.... I'm assuming the People who beat Dark Souls "Naked" employed a simular strategy.

Anyway after that I decided I wouldn't Buy any RPG, RPG Hybrid or Game with mild RPG Elements anymore.... Yep... I'm so hardcore I quit the entire genre ! :)

Don't get me wrong... I still plan on playing RPGs but I'm never ever going to pay for one.

Well, I like RPGs and the concept of preparation plus execution leading to success. The first time I played KOTOR I was too underpowered for the last boss and ran around laying mines (never used any of them the whole game, so I had dozens if not hundreds of those things) ftw. That didn't bother me so much because I could point to mistakes I had made along the way that led to me not being powerful enough. This was the very beginning of the game in Demon's Souls, though. Other than choosing a different class, there really wasn't much I could do on the preparation front, and the enemies were so slow, so predictable, that I couldn't help but think that I might actually be playing the game the way it was intended to be played.

#87 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000

Well you know what they say... If its possible.. It must the right way to play.

#88 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (6580 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000

Well you know what they say... If its possible.. It must the right way to play.

LOL, that is true.

#89 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

I think its time to let this thread die... We've exhausted all the possible discusions.

Lets do some research and then revisit the issue un 3 months, exchange what we've learned..... Hey I might even Finally play the damn thing... :p Haha !

#90 Posted by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: so you openly admit to not playing Dark Souls? Wow

#91 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

Whats really surprising is you're the only one who doesn't know this fact.... Its become common knowledge around here that Lulu knows didly Squat about Dark Souls.

Ask anybody.

#92 Edited by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: and you're making opinions on a game you know nothing about. Classic troll maneuver

Also, I'm new on the forums pretty much

#93 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

I make Oppinions about RPGs..... Remember its the entire genre's design philosophy that I have an issue... Anything I say about Dark Souls is merely an extension of that.... :)

Also do you have to play Need For Speed to form an Oppinion why Rubber Banding is wrong ? well Dark Souls is kinda like that, some things things don't need playing, everybody knows bloated stats and Trial and Error, excessive backtracking and retracking and Progression Systems in PvP scenarios suck massive donkeyballs... Somethings things are just obviously bad design.... if you wana see real trolls then I would point you the people who played this game just for the "Hardcore" status. Their the ones bragging about no hand-holding like its a good thing.

#94 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

Check out the Turtlethetaffer's post at the very top of this page....

#95 Posted by pyro1245 (277 posts) -

Mostly it is fair. It's just very unforgiving. If you're not careful or if you make a mistake, you die. Usually when I die in a Dark Souls game i know what I did wrong, and how I should proceed.

#96 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@pyro1245

Wouldn't it be nice if you knew what you were doing wrong before you die and not after ?

#97 Posted by mastermetal777 (540 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: do you expect every gamer to be privy to every game and it's strategies all the time? We're not psychic. If a game deliberately tells you how to beat it without any thought from you, the player, that's called hand-holding. And hand-holding is a failure of game design, as it makes assumptions about the player. Never think the player is too dumb to figure something out. Let them do it themselves. If it comes at the price of a few deaths because you didn't know how to beat a new enemy from the start, so be it. I'd rather die knowing I could do better than breeze through a game because it kept treating me like a child.

#98 Posted by pyro1245 (277 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu:

well to be fair there are some bosses I beat first try..... and some that completely whoop my ass until I figure out a good strategy. Most of the enemies don't pose much of a threat unless you try to rush them; and any hidden enemies can usually be spotted by creeping around corners and through doors before proceeding. Dark Souls is as much about patience as it is combat. Besides, it would be boring if you could beat the game without dying.

#99 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8559 posts) -

@mastermetal777

Whats funny is you Dark Souls fans think Those Dark Souls enemies are actually challenging because of their bloated statistics and you think Memorizing their patterns is some sort of super huge accomplishment.... I think I've mentioned it before earlier in this thread that the "Difficulty" in Dark Souls is Knowledged based and takes advantage of how little you know about it.

Its gameplay is not challenging beyond memorizing a buttload things.... Infact Dark Souls only stimulates 2 of the 5 skill categories, Knowledge and Adaptability., Its not so challenging in the Reflex, Dexterity and Timing department.

Even CoD engages those other Skills far more than Dark Souls does.... It may not require any Knowledge but its far from easy or handholding.... Some games even goes as far as telling you exactly what to do in a challenge, but knowing is the easy part, the difficulty is in execution.

#100 Posted by pyro1245 (277 posts) -

Its gameplay is not challenging beyond memorizing a buttload things.... Infact Dark Souls only stimulates 2 of the 5 skill categories, Knowledge and Adaptability., Its not so challenging in the Reflex, Dexterity and Timing department.

what about countering your opponents attacks that takes timing. and rolling out of the way when you see you're about to get smashed by an enemy club, that takes reflex. It's not like we suck so bad that we fight the same enemy over and over until all of its moves and timing gets engraved into our brains. As far as dexterity, I think all video games exercise dexterity, making us more adept at using our hands.