Is a dark souls fair game ?

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#1 Posted by superveka (109 posts) -

i don't think so there are plenty of cheap dead's in game that is hard for me to say its a fair game

#2 Posted by Mesomorphin (750 posts) -

No not really, but thats okay because I went into it knowing I was going to die alot, and I did, and I finished it, and yeah.

#3 Edited by SovietsUnited (1780 posts) -

Very fair, there are only 1-2 cheap deaths throughout the whole game
The rest you can predict if you pay attention and look around

#4 Edited by Jeager_Titan (945 posts) -

Well most of the death in dark souls were my fault anyway. But their are many cheap death moments. Still love it though.

BTW Lulu_Lulu is gonna love this thread. lol

#5 Edited by uninspiredcup (7009 posts) -

Like Splinter Cell: Blacklist, it's very much a case of replaying over and over to become more proficient.Eventually it becomes easier, and then you move on to the next piece of context, doing the same pattern.

If you like that style of gameplay, that yea, it's fair. If you hate dying suddenly, you will hate it.

#6 Posted by smitherton4 (66 posts) -

It definitely has the learning curve style of difficulty opposed to proficiency.

#7 Edited by Micheljordon (27 posts) -

The game is very good but it's very tough to play

didn't you experience it ?

#8 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@Jeager_Titan

Don't ruin the Surprize ! :p

anyway.... Isn't the whole point of Dark Souls to be unfair ? Its Masochist Nirvana

#9 Posted by Jacanuk (3720 posts) -

i don't think so there are plenty of cheap dead's in game that is hard for me to say its a fair game

Fair game? fair in what sense

But Dark Souls is not that hard of a game so ya i guess its pretty fair.

#10 Edited by PurpleMan5000 (6637 posts) -

It's perfectly fair in the sense that if you take your time and pick off the dumb enemies one by one, that game isn't all that hard. It is very unfair in the sense that every time you slip up, you have to go back through and pick off all of those same dumb enemies one by one all over again.

#11 Edited by Renegade_Fury (16959 posts) -

It's not cheap, it's just heavily memorization based. Since the gameplay is mind numbingly slow, and quick reactions aren't required, it only comes down to how much of your time that you're willing to commit.

#12 Posted by Behardy24 (2374 posts) -

A lot of the deaths in Dark Souls are usually your own doing. If you understand the logistics and enemy patterns efficiently, you can reduce your death count drastically. Of course, there are always going to be 1 or 2 cheap deaths here and there.

#13 Posted by Shmiity (4975 posts) -

Of course it is. You can run through the whole game naked with a club and still win. It's not THAT hard. The difficulty has become famous, but its overblown

#14 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@Jacanuk

Well... Consider this.... You walk into a new area and out of the blue.... a Giant Steps on you and you die instantly..... Not Hard but totally unfair....

Infact I think thats kinda the whole theme of Dark Souls, its more Punishing/Unforgiving than hard.

In my oppinion, for something to be difficult you have to have atleast a fighting chance, it needs to wear you down nice and slow, it needs to out smart you not "out-stat" you. You never feel that in Darl Souls because dying can happen so Quick that you won't get a chance to break a sweat.

I wrote an Afrikaans Test today that I didn't study for.... At all. And you know what.... It wasn't hard at all. :) but did I pass ? I highly doubt it.

#15 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@Renegade_Fury

Thats EXACTLY what it is. And I wouldn't call it "Memorization".... Its more Knowledge based, memorizing is just part of it..... if that makes any sense.

Theres 5 skill that the usual video game require from players.... Dexterity (navigating the controlls), Knowledge, Adaptability, Reflexes and Timing..... Also known as the DKART system.

Dark Souls engages each one of them but Knowledge is cleary the defining skill and just like a puzzle game, once you know the solution, it not only becomes easy, it just winds up being Boring, once you know all the ins and outs then playing it is just going through the motions, because Knowledge doesn't require any Effort especially if you have a Stamina or ATB Gauge, that only means you can't rely on your own stamina. Infact Dark Souls has its own Dexterity Stat, so that means it doesn't require any of that from the player either..... The more a game relys on these things the less a player get out of it and by extension, the less challenging it is.

#16 Posted by Jacanuk (3720 posts) -

@Jacanuk

Well... Consider this.... You walk into a new area and out of the blue.... a Giant Steps on you and you die instantly..... Not Hard but totally unfair....

Infact I think thats kinda the whole theme of Dark Souls, its more Punishing/Unforgiving than hard.

In my oppinion, for something to be difficult you have to have atleast a fighting chance, it needs to wear you down nice and slow, it needs to out smart you not "out-stat" you. You never feel that in Darl Souls because dying can happen so Quick that you won't get a chance to break a sweat.

I wrote an Afrikaans Test today that I didn't study for.... At all. And you know what.... It wasn't hard at all. :) but did I pass ? I highly doubt it.

Hmm, never had that happen in either Dark Souls or even in Demon souls.

The only thing that makes any of the souls game special is that it doesn't hold your hand and that it lets you learn on your own, a thing that used to be key in any game but turned into carebear mentality in the last 10-15years, where developers think they can't make a game too hard because then little Brian who never learned that coming 2nd is losing and that its not all about just being there, its all about winning. Wont play the game because why should he play a game that actually requires some effort and skill

#17 Edited by superveka (109 posts) -

that dragon on the bridge wtf he just come from nowhere and burn you to crisp i don't call that fair , like some of you say it is based on memorization and it is . i like the game but a lot of times it feels like you have to know in advance what is waiting for you and that is a bad thing for a exploration in game it kills a mood in a big way at least for me

#19 Posted by superveka (109 posts) -

@Jacanuk: i just tried to kill a demon with 2 dogs i don't know his name but i died like in 2 sec man lol. i remembered a cool hard game that i finished way back ninja gaiden black on xbox that game was hard and yet totally fair

#20 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@Jacanuk

You underestimate the importance of "hand holding" as you so aptly put it. The problem with this type of Old School Design is that it requires lots of Trial and Error. I can't tell you how many times I've died in a game simply because I didn't know "this" and the game doesn't teach you "that". Its messy design that leads to messy learning, and the funny thing is it still doesn't make a game difficult, just alot more tedius. As I've already explained to Renegade Fury up there, The Soul Games, like pretty much any RPG, are knowledge based, so more often than not you won't die because you were not good enough. Plus with it being heavily Stat oriented, it becomes even more knowledge oriented meaning your other skills, that would contribute to a more challenging experience, will be even more useless, no matter how Fast, Dexterous and Capable you are, you will be effectively limited by the character you're playing as since they have their own stats....

I don't want my hand held in Bayonetta, as that requires ALOT MORE more than just memorizing things, it requires actual effort and talent, that never deviates because its not heavily knowldeged based. In Dark Souls its the Exact Opposite. Its lack of Hand Holding only creates Frustration not Difficulty and once you learn everything theres not much effort required because you memorize the pattern and have a better understanding of the stat, just like puzzle game, "Hand Holding" is essential to knowledge, Information needs to be orgainzed and filed properly so that you can learn everything faster, have you ever learned a new language ? You can't do it it by popping open a Dictionary and learning all that disorganized information, its not difficult its just tedius, this is why you have texts books that organise and file and teach everything in a Hand Holdy fashion. Hence why I think it only Appeals to Masochists.

For an Example of The and Bad Type of Hand Holding, play DiRT 3 or Forza, The type of hand holding you Don't Want are the Driver Aids that are Skilled Based, Transmission, Braking, Steering, etc. The type hand holding you Do want is Knowledge Based, Gauges, Map, Racing Line, etc. Removing that Second type will not make DiRT 3, any Harder, Trust Me, I know, I race with no HUD because I know that game in and out and all that clutter just gets in my way. Its just a knowledge to help you keep track of Knowledge.

#21 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@Jacanuk

You underestimate the importance of "hand holding" as you so aptly put it. The problem with this type of Old School Design is that it requires lots of Trial and Error. I can't tell you how many times I've died in a game simply because I didn't know "this" and the game doesn't teach you "that". Its messy design that leads to messy learning, and the funny thing is it still doesn't make a game difficult, just alot more tedius. As I've already explained to Renegade Fury up there, The Soul Games, like pretty much any RPG, are knowledge based, so more often than not you won't die because you were not good enough. Plus with it being heavily Stat oriented, it becomes even more knowledge oriented meaning your other skills, that would contribute to a more challenging experience, will be even more useless, no matter how Fast, Dexterous and Capable you are, you will be effectively limited by the character you're playing as since they have their own stats....

I don't want my hand held in Bayonetta, as that requires ALOT MORE more than just memorizing things, it requires actual effort and talent, that never deviates because its not heavily knowldeged based. In Dark Souls its the Exact Opposite. Its lack of Hand Holding only creates Frustration not Difficulty and once you learn everything theres not much effort required because you memorize the pattern and have a better understanding of the stat, just like puzzle game, "Hand Holding" is essential to knowledge, Information needs to be orgainzed and filed properly so that you can learn everything faster, have you ever learned a new language ? You can't do it it by popping open a Dictionary and learning all that disorganized information, its not difficult its just tedius, this is why you have texts books that organise and file and teach everything in a Hand Holdy fashion. Hence why I think it only Appeals to Masochists.

For an Example of The Good and Bad Type of Hand Holding, play DiRT 3 or Forza, The type of hand holding you Don't Want are the Driver Aids that are Skilled Based, Transmission, Braking, Steering, etc. The type hand holding you Do want is Knowledge Based, Gauges, Map, Racing Line, etc. Removing that Second type will not make DiRT 3, any Harder, Trust Me, I know, I race with no HUD because I know that game in and out and all that clutter just gets in my way. Its just a system to help you keep track of Knowledge.

#22 Posted by superveka (109 posts) -

http://youtu.be/6M9ONL6BcbU

#23 Posted by PurpleMan5000 (6637 posts) -

@superveka: Ninja Gaiden and the Souls series are hard for different reasons. Ninja Gaiden is hard because you have to master a complex set of moves to approach waves of enemies with their own move sets and the game is fast-paced. The Souls series is hard because you move at a snail's pace and have 2 attacks and a block, and some enemies can kill you with only 1 or 2 shots. Both games also have somewhat long sections of game in between saves, but when you get good at NG, you can just cut your way through everything with ease to get back to the point you died at. In the Souls series, you have to carefully trudge through the enemies again because you still only have the same two attacks and there really isn't much variety in how you can go about things.

#24 Posted by superveka (109 posts) -

@PurpleMan5000: i agree with you that ng and ds are difficult for different reasons but they are very similar games, i don't remember one cheap moment in ninja gaiden but souls are different story i was thinking that in dark souls you are in world and is gonna be difficult you know hard enemies hard everything and i am fine with that, but this game is just ridiculous sometimes it wants that you know in advance what is going to happen like that dragon on the bridge not to mention that demon with 2 dogs in a room size of a bathroom and many more examples i am sure. in souls you just have to be lucky lots of times and that is a part that turns me off ! i did not say that is impossible to beat the game but game just stops to be fun after a while because i have impression that is not flexible enough and i hear people saying that is a open world game? to the extent yeah maybe but good luck exploring and staying alive in area where enemies are going to kill you even if they fart close to you.

#25 Edited by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

It is an incredibly fair game, beyond most.

There are a couple imbalanced weapons for PvP, but the community has adapted to them quite easily. PvE doesn't face these issues.

Any death the player suffers is from their own mistake. Either they are too impatient and rush into a new area without playing defensively and get overwhelmed or surprised, or they get too cocky and think they can take on way more than they are capable of.

The only "cheap" deaths I ever experienced playing that game was during the pre-patch period when backstabbing glitches were rampant and every red phantom used them incessantly, even on new players. But being able to beat someone doing that was a massive reward.

#26 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Or they fall off a ledge

or they focus all their souls into the wrong stats (they won't realize until their build gets them killed)

#27 Posted by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Or they fall off a ledge

or they focus all their souls into the wrong stats (they won't realize until their build gets them killed)

What exactly about falling off a ledge cannot be avoided?

And the game can be beaten at SL1. It's all about weapon upgrades, not SL.

#28 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Well the ledge thing is the most common complaint I've heard so I'm just relay thing....

who said anything about levels ? I said stats..... That includes weapons, armour and accessories.

#29 Posted by RodneyCourts (17 posts) -

Yes, there are really some cheap deaths in dark soul, but I still like this game as if you had played enough you can predict your death. Most of the time my death was because of my mistakes in this game. You have to be more active while playing dark soul, I don't think it is a cheap game. It is a good and interesting game to play. Pay attention and you may protect yourself from cheap death.

#30 Posted by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Well the ledge thing is the most common complaint I've heard so I'm just relay thing....

who said anything about levels ? I said stats..... That includes weapons, armour and accessories.

I assumed you meant levels. I went through the game up to Four Kings with a SL5 pyromancer (at one point, no way in hell I'm that good anymore). It was rough until I got fire weapons.

#31 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Learning like that would be a head ache.

And If I win or lose I could never accept full responsibility..... I'l always blame the game: "Why does it let me go to the Boss even though my character's not ready yet ?"

I really don't have that kind of Patience anymore...... Final Fantasy took that away a long time ago.

#32 Edited by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

"Why does it let me go to the Boss even though my character's not ready yet ?"

Because that's what a challenging RPG is all about. It's a skill-based game, stats mean very little if you have the skills to whittle a life bar down even with the weakest character and weapon (i.e. the Asylum Demon drops the Demon's Great Hammer if you can beat him before getting your weapon).

#33 Edited by turtlethetaffer (16451 posts) -

Yes. It's all about learning the systems. While there are areas with BS stuff, for the most part Dark Souls is actually very fair. If it wasn't people wouldn't be able to do no death speed runs or no death runs. Hell, on New Game +, as soon as I finished the game, I blew through the first half since I actually knew what I was doing. It can be a very short game depending on how you play it. And it's also a fair one, save a few really shitty moments (Bed of Chaos).

#34 Posted by JordanElek (17701 posts) -

Dark Souls encourages you to get help from others in more ways than any other game I've played. That's at the very core of the game's design. So many questions about how the game works are answered when you understand that.

The game is unfair if you choose not to dip into those resources as a beginner. It's like trying to learn to play the guitar by just picking one up and fiddling around instead of learning from a guitarist or reading up on it. You'll learn to play eventually without help, but the process will be much faster and a little less painful (though it'll still be pretty painful) if you learn from others.

#35 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

That.... Sir.... Is called bad design......

Have you ever entered a Boss Fight and managed to whittle down the boss's health to 50% and they unleash a new move or introduce minions ?

I have, 20 minutes hacking a way at a Giant Frog and it Farts out a cloud of poisonous gas, my party died....... I grinded hard and cameback stronger and made it through the gas then it farts again and tiny lil meany frog things come out of no where and kill my party..... again........ Thats just worst case scenario.

But even if things go smoothly,Thats still not Skill.... Not by a longshot. Thats 2 minutes learning enemy patterns and figuring out which strategy to use, next 10-20 minutes is just repetition.

@turtlethetaffer

I can do the Samething in Portal 2...... Because just like Portal, Dark Souls only requires you to know things. I have over 70 hours in Bayonetta and I still die everynow and then because knowing is not enough........ It takes real skill and effort to play.

#36 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@JordanElek

Or Somebody could leave behind false information that gets you killed, then theres the unbalanced PvP, and then theres place who just like griefing when you summon them. Also if the game was centered around that then why not make online mandatory ?

#37 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16451 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: So does Dark Souls 2. Unlike Portal 2, by the end of Dark Souls, you're presumably a lot more skilled at the systems. You still can't just rush through everything and randomly hack and slash.

The only reason I was able to blow through it my second time is because I knew how the game worked and what was expected of me. Even if your character is a lot more powerful in New Game +, that doesn't mean you're unstoppable. There is never a point in the game ever where you are truly powerful, just knowledgeable in how to correctly play it depending on your build.

#38 Posted by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

That.... Sir.... Is called bad design......

It's not bad design at all. I'm not sure what you're used to in games.

#39 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer

If you say so...... Michael Thomsen would disagree...... He described exactly like a type of puzzle game, knowing the solution only feels like going through the motions.....

Also I think you understimate the importance of rushing in gunz blazing...... Patience is easy.... Anybody can do that..... Rushing requires quick reflexes and split second decision making......

Lately I found my self defending the strangest things.......

#40 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16451 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu:

1. I have no idea who Michael Thomsen is.

2. In Dark Souls, rushing in is an easy way to get gang banged by a group of enemies to death.

#41 Edited by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Hard to say.... I'm not use to anything.... I always wana up the ante and experiment and learn knew things..... I can't find the right words to describe why a developer should never wast a player's time like that..... I never thought in my life I would have to.... It just seems like common sense that a game should atleast warn you if you're underpowered.

#42 Posted by JordanElek (17701 posts) -

Also if the game was centered around that then why not make online mandatory ?

Because that would be stupid.

I'm not really talking about getting help within the game, though that's possible. I'm sure everyone who enjoys Dark Souls has had a friend or fellow gamer ask them a specific question about Dark Souls. I know someone who just started playing Dark Souls a few weeks ago, and I was somewhat of a teacher to him as he struggled through the early parts of the game. It was a blast for both of us.

That's what the game was designed to invoke. People talking to each other. It doesn't need to happen within the game. And I think it's pretty clear that they've done an excellent job with it.

#43 Posted by foxhound_fox (86990 posts) -

@foxhound_fox

Hard to say.... I'm not use to anything.... I always wana up the ante and experiment and learn knew things..... I can't find the right words to describe why a developer should never wast a player's time like that..... I never thought in my life I would have to.... It just seems like common sense that a game should atleast warn you if you're underpowered.

What's the point of that? Dark Souls is about exploration and discovery. It has a very minimalistic story and lets the player find their own way through everything. It's a skill-based RPG, so preparedness and patience play in far more than stat-crunching. Most games these days are paint-by-numbers. Dark Souls is a set of painting supplies and fresh canvas.

#44 Posted by SovietsUnited (1780 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu

You can't compare Dark Souls to anything if you haven't played it, I can't stress this enough. Watch this video to get the bigger picture

#45 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@turtlethetaffer

1)He writes for Forbes and he Does not like Dark Souls 1 bit.

www.slate.com/articles/arts/gaming/2012/02/dark_souls_review_is_a_100_hour_video_game_ever_worthwhile_.html

www.forbes.com/sites/michaelthomsen/2014/04/25/is-dark-souls-ii-the-worst-game-ever-made/

2)Well yeah obviously.... Is being patient difficult ? Is keeping a list of strategies and memorizing what works and what doesn't... I don't think so. Its not fun and its not challenging either..... If it was atleast one of those things then yeah sure.... But it isn't.

#46 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@SovietsUnited

Can't do that right now.... But Soon....

@foxhound_fox

Doesn't mean its a good point..... Its the samething when Ian Boghost designed the Parody game: Cow Clicker, and people defended it by saying thats exactly what it was designed for....

We'l see when I play it one day.......

#47 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16451 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu: Regardless of whether you think it's fun or not, that makes it a fair game. Once you learn the strategies you can master the game. So it's definitely fair.

#48 Posted by JordanElek (17701 posts) -

Is being patient difficult ? Is keeping a list of strategies and memorizing what works and what doesn't... I don't think so. Its not fun and its not challenging either..... If it was atleast one of those things then yeah sure.... But it isn't.

That's not at all how I played the game.... Is it true that you haven't played it?

#49 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16451 posts) -

@Lulu_Lulu said:

Is being patient difficult ? Is keeping a list of strategies and memorizing what works and what doesn't... I don't think so. Its not fun and its not challenging either..... If it was atleast one of those things then yeah sure.... But it isn't.

That's not at all how I played the game.... Is it true that you haven't played it?

I believe that is true. For someone who hates the game so much, they never actually had any experience with the game.

#50 Posted by Lulu_Lulu (8650 posts) -

@JordanElek

Yep...... Also your ealier post is just ridiculous.... Why design a game like that.... You realise there was no community when this thing was new, there was no one to discuss it with.

@turtlethetaffer

So its fair, only if you've mastered the strategies..... Its fair with conditions.....

I mentioned earlier last year that people who defend Dark Souls sound like Domestic Abuse victims..... I really can't shake that comparison.