GTAV voice actors include actual gangsters

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#151 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18163 posts) -
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="chrisrooR"]Tell people in Nicaragua who live in absolute monetary poverty and try and convince them to go to Alaska, or go join the Army. There are places in the world where what you and I would consider 'criminal' behaviour is actually quite normal.chrisrooR
We are talking about american gangs here.

No, your statements were broad and inclusive of all. "Circumstances do vary, but the actions remain. Murderers and robbers remain as such regardless of their personal excuses for doing what they do. We are what we do." You were even responding to a comment about a Mexican Cartel yourself....

No, I was talking about north american gangs, which is what this thread is about.
#152 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] We are talking about american gangs here.

No, your statements were broad and inclusive of all. "Circumstances do vary, but the actions remain. Murderers and robbers remain as such regardless of their personal excuses for doing what they do. We are what we do." You were even responding to a comment about a Mexican Cartel yourself....

No, I was talking about north american gangs, which is what this thread is about.

No, you were broadly talking about the morality and zero justification for criminal behaviour. I really have to link it all to you?
#153 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

C'mon Black_Knight, why don't you ease up a bit and just admit you don't have all the answers. If you did, you could run for King of the world and fix all of its problems overnight. I understand you have strong beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you've never been in their shoes, you can't fully assess and correct their errors, and not having ever had to go through any of those scenarios yourself, it's probably not wise or fair to continue to judge them in a Rush Limbaugh sort of way. You can't fix what you don't have a firm understanding of.

#154 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

#155 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley
You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.
#156 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley

Suggesting Rush Limbaugh ever made any sense, common or otherwise. :lol:

#157 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

chrisrooR

You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. In perspective, keeping your ass employed and out of a gang seems like small potatoes to someone who has so little opportunity and has to contend with the Taliban.

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

#158 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Bigboi500

Suggesting Rush Limbaugh ever made any sense, common or otherwise. :lol:

Re-read it. I wasn't saying Rush Limbaugh made sense, but BlackKnight. I sense a whole bunch of butthurt that is manifesting itself in poor comprehension in this thread. 

#159 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

chrisrooR

You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.

And that is incorrect. I have rebuked and refuted. :)

#160 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley

You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. 

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

I wasn't saying Black_Knight is a conservative, that'd be a terrible insult. :P Just saying he was judging others in the same fashion that Rush tends to do, with no field knowledge of the situation.

I remember a study was made not long ago that claimed those living in extreme poverty only had a 17% chance of escaping it in America, even when doing all they can to get out of it. I'll look around and see if I can find the data.

#161 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense. Bigboi500

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. 

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

I wasn't saying Black_Knight is a conservative, that'd be a terrible insult. :P Just saying he was judging others in the same fashion that Rush tends to do, with no field knowledge of the situation.

I remember a study was made not long ago that claimed those living in extreme poverty only had a 17% chance of escaping it in America, even when doing all they can to get out of it. I'll look around and see if I can find the data.

Well, based on your reaction to conservatism I'd say your equating him to Rush Limbaugh was an intentional insult, no?

#162 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley

Suggesting Rush Limbaugh ever made any sense, common or otherwise. :lol:

Re-read it. I wasn't saying Rush Limbaugh made sense, but BlackKnight. I sense a whole bunch of butthurt that is manifesting itself in poor comprehension in this thread. 

I was just messing with you about that. My bad for a poor attempt  at being jocular.

#163 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley

You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. In perspective, keeping your ass employed and out of a gang seems like small potatoes to someone who has so little opportunity and has to contend with the Taliban.

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

Give me a break. Just because you're offering a single anecdote as evidence doesn't reflect the reality of the situation for many people. Personal accountability can only go as far as that persons social environment, upbringing, friends, monetary situation, among other things. And you didn't grow up in South Central. You have no idea what you're talking about.
#164 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative with the constant mentions of Fox News and Rush LImbaugh. If I remember right (and I could be totally wrong) BK is pretty far from being a conservative. 

Not that it's my business, but it seems like people want to use it as some sort of mild aspersion on him, and I don't think there's any point he's advocated in this thread to indicate that he is conservative at all. Unless espousing common sense instantly makes one conservative. :)

Shame-usBlackley

You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense.

And that is incorrect. I have rebuked and refuted. :)

I never mentioned fox news, rush limbaugh or conservatives once in this entire thread. I was talking about responding to the points I made above.
#165 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Suggesting Rush Limbaugh ever made any sense, common or otherwise. :lol:

Bigboi500

Re-read it. I wasn't saying Rush Limbaugh made sense, but BlackKnight. I sense a whole bunch of butthurt that is manifesting itself in poor comprehension in this thread. 

I was just messing with you about that. My bad for a poor attempt  at being jocular.

Ah, my bad then. :)

#166 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense. chrisrooR

And that is incorrect. I have rebuked and refuted. :)

I never mentioned fox news, rush limbaugh or conservatives once in this entire thread. I was talking about responding to the points I made above.

You said "any points made" not just your own.

#167 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense. chrisrooR

And that is incorrect. I have rebuked and refuted. :)

I never mentioned fox news, rush limbaugh or conservatives once in this entire thread. I was talking about responding to the points I made above.

Did I say "chrisrooR" when I mentioned the references to Fox and Rush? 

#168 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

 

Well, based on your reaction to conservatism I'd say your equating him to Rush Limbaugh was an intentional insult, no?

Shame-usBlackley

Honestly I find both liberalism and conservatism to be a complete joke these days as far as US politics are concerned. I used to be an active liberal in the Clinton days, and even voted for Obama the first time around. After that, I realized both sides were playing us all for fools, and that voting for "the-lesser-of-two-evils" is just a waste of time.

We need a legitimate independant political third party in the US very badly, one who's people doesn't have to end up settling for donkeys or elephants, imo. The one we have is growing stronger, but will likely never have a large enough following to make a real difference.

#169 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] You did nothing to rebuke any points made, and yet blindly defend it as common sense. chrisrooR

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. In perspective, keeping your ass employed and out of a gang seems like small potatoes to someone who has so little opportunity and has to contend with the Taliban.

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

Give me a break. Just because you're offering a single anecdote as evidence doesn't reflect the reality of the situation for many people. Personal accountability can only go as far as that persons social environment, upbringing, friends, monetary situation, among other things. And you didn't grow up in South Central. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Reality is often predicated by one's scope of the rest of the world. Someone who has grown up under tyranny may see that our elected leaders here are not so bad. Someone who has seen the opportunities present in other countries may gladly trade places with someone growing up in Los Angeles. 

Where did I grow up, incidentally? I seem to have forgotten.

#170 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

And that is incorrect. I have rebuked and refuted. :)

Shame-usBlackley

I never mentioned fox news, rush limbaugh or conservatives once in this entire thread. I was talking about responding to the points I made above.

You said "any points made" not just your own.

You can assume when you quote someone, they're going to be referencing the posts that person made. Sorry if that was unclear.
#171 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] I never mentioned fox news, rush limbaugh or conservatives once in this entire thread. I was talking about responding to the points I made above.chrisrooR

You said "any points made" not just your own.

You can assume when you quote someone, they're going to be referencing the posts that person made. Sorry if that was unclear.

Well, that's interesting because I didn't quote anyone when I made that post. 

#172 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

 

Well, based on your reaction to conservatism I'd say your equating him to Rush Limbaugh was an intentional insult, no?

Bigboi500

Honestly I find both liberalism and conservatism to be a complete joke these days as far as US politics are concerned. I used to be an active liberal in the Clinton days, and even voted for Obama the first time around. After that, I realized both sides were playing us all for fools, and that voting for "the-lesser-of-two-evils" is just a waste of time.

We need a legitimate independant political third party in the US very badly, one who's people doesn't have to end up settling for donkeys or elephants, imo. The one we have is growing stronger, but will likely never have a large enough following to make a real difference.

Well, then we share more in common than I initially thought. :)

#173 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Just pointing out that it's ridiculous to assume political leanings based on his advocacy of personal accountability. 

I happen to believe in personal accountability, so it is common sense to me. I think people crying about growing up in South Central Los Angeles have a warped version of fairness and would do well to look at the opportunities present to a child born in, say, Afghanistan, whose definition of success in life may be a tiny plot of land, a shanty, and (if he's extremely prosperous) a yak or some other such animal. In perspective, keeping your ass employed and out of a gang seems like small potatoes to someone who has so little opportunity and has to contend with the Taliban.

I know a guy who moved here from Ghana, and he is constantly blown away by all the opportunity. He is putting himself through nursing school while working three of these impossible to find jobs I keep hearing about in this thread. 

Shame-usBlackley

Give me a break. Just because you're offering a single anecdote as evidence doesn't reflect the reality of the situation for many people. Personal accountability can only go as far as that persons social environment, upbringing, friends, monetary situation, among other things. And you didn't grow up in South Central. You have no idea what you're talking about.

Reality is often predicated by one's scope of the rest of the world. Someone who has grown up under tyranny may see that our elected leaders here are not so bad. Someone who has seen the opportunities present in other countries may gladly trade places with someone growing up in Los Angeles. 

Where did I grow up, incidentally?

THANK YOU. For f*ck sakes, you're agreeing with me. You just said what I've BEEN saying for the past three pages. And I don't know, nor do I care, where you grew up. But you didn't grow up in South Central housing projects, so don't tell us all you did. And again, we were discussing the justifiability of criminal behaviour across various contexts. Not just in South Central. Which is why you brought the story about your 'friend from Ghana' up. But the anecdote you provided isn't the situation being faced by most in extreme poverty. It boils down to either committing crimes or starving to death.
#174 Posted by chrisrooR (9026 posts) -

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"][QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

You said "any points made" not just your own.

Shame-usBlackley

You can assume when you quote someone, they're going to be referencing the posts that person made. Sorry if that was unclear.

Well, that's interesting because I didn't quote anyone when I made that post. 

"Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative..." Who else were you referring to? Myself and bigboi have been the only people responding to this thread for the past few pages.
#175 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

 

Well, based on your reaction to conservatism I'd say your equating him to Rush Limbaugh was an intentional insult, no?

Shame-usBlackley

Honestly I find both liberalism and conservatism to be a complete joke these days as far as US politics are concerned. I used to be an active liberal in the Clinton days, and even voted for Obama the first time around. After that, I realized both sides were playing us all for fools, and that voting for "the-lesser-of-two-evils" is just a waste of time.

We need a legitimate independant political third party in the US very badly, one who's people doesn't have to end up settling for donkeys or elephants, imo. The one we have is growing stronger, but will likely never have a large enough following to make a real difference.

Well, then we share more in common than I initially thought. :)

Growing up in the south and having a liberal family, I developed my values from both sides. I'm very conservative when it comes to abortion, gun rights and criminal punishment, and quite liberal about my views on war, marriage and tax policies, human rights and social care.

#176 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] You can assume when you quote someone, they're going to be referencing the posts that person made. Sorry if that was unclear. chrisrooR

Well, that's interesting because I didn't quote anyone when I made that post. 

"Ummm, you guys keep alluding to Black Knight being conservative..." Who else were you referring to? Myself and bigboi have been the only people responding to this thread for the past few pages.

Well, I figured those who had would know who they were without me citing them by name. Jacunuk made several references to him being a middle-class Fox News watcher, when he is not even living in America.

#177 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="chrisrooR"] Give me a break. Just because you're offering a single anecdote as evidence doesn't reflect the reality of the situation for many people. Personal accountability can only go as far as that persons social environment, upbringing, friends, monetary situation, among other things. And you didn't grow up in South Central. You have no idea what you're talking about. chrisrooR

Reality is often predicated by one's scope of the rest of the world. Someone who has grown up under tyranny may see that our elected leaders here are not so bad. Someone who has seen the opportunities present in other countries may gladly trade places with someone growing up in Los Angeles. 

Where did I grow up, incidentally?

THANK YOU. For f*ck sakes, you're agreeing with me. You just said what I've BEEN saying for the past three pages. And I don't know, nor do I care, where you grew up. But you didn't grow up in South Central housing projects, so don't tell us all you did. And again, we were discussing the justifiability of criminal behaviour across various contexts. Not just in South Central. Which is why you brought the story about your 'friend from Ghana' up. But the anecdote you provided isn't the situation being faced by most in extreme poverty. It boils down to either committing crimes or starving to death.

It wasn't I who disagreed with you, but you me. And now you're saying that my advocacy of common sense means we agree, but I don't know that you're comprehending what I wrote. My take is that the "reality" you speak of regarding people growing up in impoverished parts of the United States is largely based on a myopic view of the world. To the uninitiated, growing up in South Central Los Angeles may be a horrifying reality that they view as inescapable. To an immigrant from another country, growing up in South Central would be an opportunity and not a challenge.

If you agreed with that, then you shouldn't have argued otherwise when you responded to my post. 

And I was just fvcking with you about the where I'm from thing. But I must ask: what are you using as a metric to assume I did not grow up in South Central? 

#178 Posted by platinumking320 (663 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

 

Well, based on your reaction to conservatism I'd say your equating him to Rush Limbaugh was an intentional insult, no?

Bigboi500

Honestly I find both liberalism and conservatism to be a complete joke these days as far as US politics are concerned. I used to be an active liberal in the Clinton days, and even voted for Obama the first time around. After that, I realized both sides were playing us all for fools, and that voting for "the-lesser-of-two-evils" is just a waste of time.

We need a legitimate independant political third party in the US very badly, one who's people doesn't have to end up settling for donkeys or elephants, imo. The one we have is growing stronger, but will likely never have a large enough following to make a real difference.



Imperialism just wears a new mask. Less people die through war on a regular basis than the ancient empire days but the human dynamics of power greed class, and crowd psych manipulation haven't changed since then.  Look at all these politicians turning lobbyists for oil profiteers and warlords. This is why GTA or any other controversial mediums has it's place in the history its just one of those forms of media that thematically refuses to accept the 'official version' of the order of things, what better way to caricature our American hypocrisy than through the eyes of a cynical criminal?


#179 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]Honestly I find both liberalism and conservatism to be a complete joke these days as far as US politics are concerned. I used to be an active liberal in the Clinton days, and even voted for Obama the first time around. After that, I realized both sides were playing us all for fools, and that voting for "the-lesser-of-two-evils" is just a waste of time.

We need a legitimate independant political third party in the US very badly, one who's people doesn't have to end up settling for donkeys or elephants, imo. The one we have is growing stronger, but will likely never have a large enough following to make a real difference.

Bigboi500

Well, then we share more in common than I initially thought. :)

Growing up in the south and having a liberal family, I developed my values from both sides. I'm very conservative when it comes to abortion, gun rights and criminal punishment, and quite liberal about my views on war, marriage and tax policies, human rights and social care.

A liberal family in the south... you guys must've been lonely. :P

I hear you, man. It's good that you're taking in all arguments and forming your own opinions on the issues and not simply rubber stamping your politics. I wish more people were like that. 

#180 Posted by isv666 (114 posts) -

Wow, this thread really took off since I last posted in it.  As the debate escalated, I think chrisrooR hit the nail on the head with a lot of views I have.  I've worked with guys from Ghana, Burundi, Tanzania, etc., a whole bunch of refugees.  People who watched their families murdered in front of them, had no clean water or living.  Just horrible all around.  Many of them welcome their opportunities.  But if you want to argue the "mythological job" angle of it... they all had help getting jobs through a recruiting agency dealing with refugees.  And apparently tax breaks are given to employers who hire them (that is what I've been told by countless people, can't assess the honesty of it).

As far as morality goes.  It's entirely subjective.  Sure, most people will agree that certain things are just wrong and evil, but others consider it perfectly normal and acceptable.  Like said, there is no black and white, but only shades of gray (and I'd wager more than 50).

A lot of people in gangs have a horrible environment they've grown up in.  It's easy to say from other perspectives that "They should know better!" or "There's plenty of opportunity!"  Sure, those things are true.  But when you grow up with parents who don't particularly care, a school system that doesn't care, in a city that doesn't care or try to show you that opportunity, you're not left with a whole lot.  Many views are shaped at a relatively young age and when it's pounded in your head day in and day out that gangbanging is the best opportunity and the norm, well, chances are that's what you're going to do.  Not that there aren't exceptions.  There always is.

This isn't even limited just to urban areas.  Head out to the mountains of, say, West Virginia and you'll find a lot of people who turn to illegal activites such as moonshining to make ends meet.  

But as a whole, gang violence and gangs in general need to be curbed.  These people need to be taught there are options, that they can do more with their life than sling dope.  Sadly they are part of society that nobody cares enough about, which just further feeds the problem.  

#181 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18163 posts) -

C'mon Black_Knight, why don't you ease up a bit and just admit you don't have all the answers. If you did, you could run for King of the world and fix all of its problems overnight. I understand you have strong beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you've never been in their shoes, you can't fully assess and correct their errors, and not having ever had to go through any of those scenarios yourself, it's probably not wise or fair to continue to judge them in a Rush Limbaugh sort of way. You can't fix what you don't have a firm understanding of.

Bigboi500
It's not like I made only a single point in this whole thread. He objected that gangsters in Africa cannot get a job in Alaska and I pointed out that obviously that was referred to gangsters who live in places with such opportunities. Do I need to further clarify? By the way, please refrain from comparing me to right wing religious nuts: I'm a left wing marxist atheist for christ's sake! (pun intended)
#182 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

Gang violence was just as bad under Clinton and a booming economy. It may even have been worse -- does anyone have any statistics on gang violence in the states over the last couple decades?

Economics is A factor, but the assertion that gang violence is a direct result of the economy is flimsy at best. 

Shame-usBlackley

It's not a democrat or republican problem in the US. It's a Capitalism problem in my opinion, but I dont' want to start a political philosophy discussion as I'm trying to watch the ball game.

Crime is always going to exist, and part of the reason why is because of necessity and lack of governmental leadership and policy. Just saying simple shit like "get a job" isn't going to help, or be an accurate assessment of severe problems we face when dealing with issues like this.

I'm not either; I'm just pointing out that the last time the economy was actually considered "good" (which was under Clinton) and jobs were abundant, there were still rampant gang problems. 

The economy was good for a breif period, during the Bush 2 presidency, before the collapse of the housing market. 

#183 Posted by Shame-usBlackley (18266 posts) -

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]It's not a democrat or republican problem in the US. It's a Capitalism problem in my opinion, but I dont' want to start a political philosophy discussion as I'm trying to watch the ball game.

Crime is always going to exist, and part of the reason why is because of necessity and lack of governmental leadership and policy. Just saying simple shit like "get a job" isn't going to help, or be an accurate assessment of severe problems we face when dealing with issues like this.

Areez

I'm not either; I'm just pointing out that the last time the economy was actually considered "good" (which was under Clinton) and jobs were abundant, there were still rampant gang problems. 

The economy was good for a breif period, during the Bush 2 presidency, before the collapse of the housing market. 

Brief being like 2 months. The recession under Bush began in March of 2001... only two months after he took office. Six months later, 9/11 occurred. It bounced back somewhat, but I don't know that I'd call it good.

#184 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jacanuk"]Sure, because everything solves itself with finding a job, someone with no education, no skills and lives in one of the poorest parts of a city can just go pick up a suit and get a job ;) Please tell me your joking because either your living in a bubble or you really need to educate yourself some more.Black_Knight_00
What... the hell. Did you ever have a job? Do you think you need education and a suit to make a living? There are jobs (not careers, jobs) that people in poor areas do every day. People who join gangs mostly do it because dealing drugs and running rackets is a quicker way to money than washing dishes at a diner or scrubbing toilets.

BK...The idea that people who join gangs primarily do so to sell drugs and make fast money, is not entirely accurate. This is a very broad generalization you are making here about gangs.

And to your point of making a living, the idea of living is subjective and based on the individuals definition of what "making a living" means. Yes, you are correct that you do not need a suit to obtain a job but scrubbing dishes at a diner is not exactly going to pay the bills either, at least not without some living assistance from the Government. 

Back to gangs....Young adults join gangs, not so much for the, reasons you list but do so for a sense of belonging. The family dynamic in the inner cities is broken and shows littke resemblance to the family make-up of middle class families. It is important to highlight this fact, as many inner city youth, grow up without fathers or even positive role models early on in life. 

The causation to gravitate towards gang life, has to do with several other factors, than ghe ones you listed. The causes include, safety or to seek protection,  a sense of belonging or family, love and self validation. These are things tylically given to us within the constructs of a healthy family dynamic. A dynamic that clearly lacks within the families of inner cities.

This topic is one that I am familiar with, I earned a Bachelor's of Science in Sociology with a concetration in Criminology 10 years ago. I also have a relative who is a Licensed Clinical Social worker...

He works with the inmate population at the state level and often works closely with inmates who are gang members themselves. You would be surprised by the influence gangs have within the inner city and the presence they have at times, within the criminal justice system.

#185 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Areez"]

[QUOTE="Shame-usBlackley"]

I'm not either; I'm just pointing out that the last time the economy was actually considered "good" (which was under Clinton) and jobs were abundant, there were still rampant gang problems. 

Shame-usBlackley

The economy was good for a breif period, during the Bush 2 presidency, before the collapse of the housing market. 

Brief being like 2 months. The recession under Bush began in March of 2001... only two months after he took office. Six months later, 9/11 occurred. It bounced back somewhat, but I don't know that I'd call it good.

Brief as in 2004 to 2007. The housing market was driving the economy,  home values were appreciating at record levels. Credit was easier to obtain which increased consumer spending. Home owners were leveraging the increased values of their homes to purchase second homes and other goods. Homeowners and investors were flipping houses and walking away with 20% profits within months. Just straight cash profits! I had friends in the mortgage industry at the age of 28, making 30k a month!! It was a boom period, that ultimately led to the financial collapse in 2008.

#186 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18163 posts) -
BK...The idea that people who join gangs primarily do so to sell drugs and make fast money, is not entirely accurate. This is a very broad generalization you are making here about gangs.

And to your point of making a living, the idea of living is subjective and based on the individuals definition of what "making a living" means. Yes, you are correct that you do not need a suit to obtain a job but scrubbing dishes at a diner is not exactly going to pay the bills either, at least not without some living assistance from the Government. 

Back to gangs....Young adults join gangs, not so much for the, reasons you list but do so for a sense of belonging. The family dynamic in the inner cities is broken and shows littke resemblance to the family make-up of middle class families. It is important to highlight this fact, as many inner city youth, grow up without fathers or even positive role models early on in life. 

The causation to gravitate towards gang life, has to do with several other factors, than ghe ones you listed. The causes include, safety or to seek protection,  a sense of belonging or family, love and self validation. These are things tylically given to us within the constructs of a healthy family dynamic. A dynamic that clearly lacks within the families of inner cities.

This topic is one that I am familiar with, I earned a Bachelor's of Science in Sociology with a concetration in Criminology 10 years ago. I also have a relative who is a Licensed Clinical Social worker...

He works with the inmate population at the state level and often works closely with inmates who are gang members themselves. You would be surprised by the influence gangs have within the inner city and the presence they have at times, within the criminal justice system.

Areez
Do we agree that in the same social context we have people with the same background (at least comparable backrounds), the same circumstances, and yet most choose to settle and make a living in a honest manner, while some choose a life of crime? Remember, same bad neighbordhood, same difficult situation, same poor instruction.
#187 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Areez"]BK...The idea that people who join gangs primarily do so to sell drugs and make fast money, is not entirely accurate. This is a very broad generalization you are making here about gangs.

And to your point of making a living, the idea of living is subjective and based on the individuals definition of what "making a living" means. Yes, you are correct that you do not need a suit to obtain a job but scrubbing dishes at a diner is not exactly going to pay the bills either, at least not without some living assistance from the Government. 

Back to gangs....Young adults join gangs, not so much for the, reasons you list but do so for a sense of belonging. The family dynamic in the inner cities is broken and shows littke resemblance to the family make-up of middle class families. It is important to highlight this fact, as many inner city youth, grow up without fathers or even positive role models early on in life. 

The causation to gravitate towards gang life, has to do with several other factors, than ghe ones you listed. The causes include, safety or to seek protection,  a sense of belonging or family, love and self validation. These are things tylically given to us within the constructs of a healthy family dynamic. A dynamic that clearly lacks within the families of inner cities.

This topic is one that I am familiar with, I earned a Bachelor's of Science in Sociology with a concetration in Criminology 10 years ago. I also have a relative who is a Licensed Clinical Social worker...

He works with the inmate population at the state level and often works closely with inmates who are gang members themselves. You would be surprised by the influence gangs have within the inner city and the presence they have at times, within the criminal justice system.

Black_Knight_00

Do we agree that in the same social context we have people with the same background (at least comparable backrounds), the same circumstances, and yet most choose to settle and make a living in a honest manner, while some choose a life of crime? Remember, same bad neighbordhood, same difficult situation, same poor instruction.

You have a small percentage of the population, that escapes these poor socio-economic conditions or earn honest wages. However, it is usually as the result of some form of outside intervention, say a peer who represents a positive role model, and provides the drive and focus needed to break barriers. Or a charitable organization assisting the local community. 

Based on statiscal data, and the disproportionate number of individuals from this group being incarcerated, you could probably come to your conclusion, on the reality of the situation.

#188 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18163 posts) -
You have a small percentage of the population, that escapes these poor socio-economic conditions or earn honest wages. However, it is usually as the result of some form of outside intervention, say a peer who represents a positive role model, and provides the drive and focus needed to break barriers. Or a charitable organization assisting the local community. Based on statiscal data, and the disproportionate number of individuals from this group being incarcerated, you could probably come to your conclusion, on the reality of the situation.Areez
What percentage of a poor neighborhood becomes criminal?
#189 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Areez"]You have a small percentage of the population, that escapes these poor socio-economic conditions or earn honest wages. However, it is usually as the result of some form of outside intervention, say a peer who represents a positive role model, and provides the drive and focus needed to break barriers. Or a charitable organization assisting the local community. Based on statiscal data, and the disproportionate number of individuals from this group being incarcerated, you could probably come to your conclusion, on the reality of the situation.Black_Knight_00
What percentage of a poor neighborhood becomes criminal?

Not sure the exact percentage...perhaps the FBI has that statiscal data. One observation that has been made is that inner city youth are four times as likely to commit violent crimes. Tons of data on this on the web...

#190 Posted by Areez (6278 posts) -

[QUOTE="Areez"]You have a small percentage of the population, that escapes these poor socio-economic conditions or earn honest wages. However, it is usually as the result of some form of outside intervention, say a peer who represents a positive role model, and provides the drive and focus needed to break barriers. Or a charitable organization assisting the local community. Based on statiscal data, and the disproportionate number of individuals from this group being incarcerated, you could probably come to your conclusion, on the reality of the situation.Black_Knight_00
What percentage of a poor neighborhood becomes criminal?

Not sure the exact percentage...perhaps the FBI has that statiscal data. One observation that has been made is that inner city youth are four times as likely to commit violent crimes. Tons of data on this on the web...

#191 Posted by Bigboi500 (29060 posts) -

[QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

C'mon Black_Knight, why don't you ease up a bit and just admit you don't have all the answers. If you did, you could run for King of the world and fix all of its problems overnight. I understand you have strong beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you've never been in their shoes, you can't fully assess and correct their errors, and not having ever had to go through any of those scenarios yourself, it's probably not wise or fair to continue to judge them in a Rush Limbaugh sort of way. You can't fix what you don't have a firm understanding of.

Black_Knight_00

It's not like I made only a single point in this whole thread. He objected that gangsters in Africa cannot get a job in Alaska and I pointed out that obviously that was referred to gangsters who live in places with such opportunities. Do I need to further clarify? By the way, please refrain from comparing me to right wing religious nuts: I'm a left wing marxist atheist for christ's sake! (pun intended)

Didn't mean to offend you if I did. About your political and religous views, I'm glad I'm not the only one around here that's not considered "normal". :P

#192 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18163 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Bigboi500"]

C'mon Black_Knight, why don't you ease up a bit and just admit you don't have all the answers. If you did, you could run for King of the world and fix all of its problems overnight. I understand you have strong beliefs, and there's nothing wrong with that, but if you've never been in their shoes, you can't fully assess and correct their errors, and not having ever had to go through any of those scenarios yourself, it's probably not wise or fair to continue to judge them in a Rush Limbaugh sort of way. You can't fix what you don't have a firm understanding of.

Bigboi500

It's not like I made only a single point in this whole thread. He objected that gangsters in Africa cannot get a job in Alaska and I pointed out that obviously that was referred to gangsters who live in places with such opportunities. Do I need to further clarify? By the way, please refrain from comparing me to right wing religious nuts: I'm a left wing marxist atheist for christ's sake! (pun intended)

Didn't mean to offend you if I did. About your political and religous views, I'm glad I'm not the only one around here that's not considered "normal". :P

No offense taken, don't worry. Yeah I'm rarely within standard parameters.