Does SquareEnix have a total disconnect with reality?

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#1 Edited by Randolph (10322 posts) -

Did you catch this news yet? I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted as I'm reading it. Apparently, the current director of the series believes Claire "Lightning" Farron is wildly popular, and is floating the idea that she could appear in future FF games, this comes on the heels of the recent revelation that the game formerly known as Versus XIII, now FFVX, will maintain it's links to the mythology of the FFXIII series in general.

Are they honestly not aware of how much damage the XIII series has done to their franchise? Are they honestly not aware that the whole cast is generally seen by most gamers as the worst and most unlikeable in the series history? I just don't understand when exactly it is SE executives decided to climb into an echo chamber and tell each other how awesome everything they do is.

Is SE purposefully ignoring feedback, or are they just ignorant? My hopes for FFXV, or as some fondly call it, Final Fantasy May Cry, grow dimmer by the day. I used to not understand the severe dislike some of my colleagues at another forum had for Motomu Toriyama, but I think I get it now.

From his wiki page...

"For Final Fantasy VII, Toriyama designed events such as the ones taking place at the Honey Bee Inn"

Ah. Right. I still have nightmares about "the group room".

#2 Edited by Bigboi500 (28780 posts) -

They're going by sales data as opposed to forum complaints I guess.

#3 Posted by Randolph (10322 posts) -

They're going by sales data as opposed to forum complaints I guess.

Well that's just it, that data wouldn't support their position either.

#4 Posted by Archangel3371 (15087 posts) -

Clearly they're trolling and you took the bait. :P

#5 Posted by JangoWuzHere (15898 posts) -

She's popular in japan

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2013/01/japan-ranks-their-favorite-female-characters-from-the-final-fantasy-series/

#6 Edited by dethtrain (384 posts) -

They're starting to remind me of Capcom

#7 Edited by Randolph (10322 posts) -

She's popular in japan

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2013/01/japan-ranks-their-favorite-female-characters-from-the-final-fantasy-series/

JAPAN!! Oh Japan, how I wish I understood you. I really do. Clearly they meant to vote for Terra. :P

Or Rydia.

I'd even give them Yuna, Fran, or Ashe. But Lightning?

I just don't understand the how and why of that.

#8 Edited by 1PMrFister (3134 posts) -

@Randolph: Cultural values may have something to do with it. I know Kuja was surprisingly popular in Japan as well because his motive was essentially to rebel against a system that decided his life for him before he was even born, something that a lot of Japanese supposedly resonate with. Don't know if that has anything to do with Japan also liking Lightning, but... yeah, values and stuff.

Also, Freya would've been a good choice for that list if her plot didn't vanish into thin air halfway through.

#9 Posted by chessmaster1989 (28873 posts) -

Pretty sure this series and Lightning are way more popular in Japan.

#10 Posted by JordanElek (17667 posts) -

@Randolph said:

I just don't understand when exactly it is SE executives decided to climb into an echo chamber and tell each other how awesome everything they do is.

Maybe we're in the echo chamber. I loved FFXIII for both its world and its characters, though the battle system is what I love most about it. Maybe more people liked the game than you think.

I don't plan on playing Lightning Returns, but that's partly because she's not the same character. And the game systems don't seem compelling to me.

#11 Posted by Gaming-Planet (13680 posts) -

Blame the damn Japanese culture and their armpit fetishes.

#12 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (17991 posts) -

Lighting is popular among fans. The games she's in are not.

#13 Posted by Pffrbt (6311 posts) -

I don't understand how Lightning could possibly be popular in any culture. There's just nothing there, her personality is as dry and as interesting as sandpaper.

#15 Posted by turtlethetaffer (16247 posts) -

I do find it really bizarre that they're so transfixed on FFXIII. Like, I enjoy the first one, but even I think that they're just milking it for what it's wroth. Really weird. I like how each new installment has a new cast; this could really hurt.

#16 Posted by firefox59 (4306 posts) -

Lighting is popular among fans. The games she's in are not.

Yeah. I know that link posted was just for Japan but she seems to be pretty popular among all fandom. I've heard many people say that even if they didn't really enjoy the games they liked Lightning and she was the best thing about them.

#17 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (17991 posts) -

@Black_Knight_00 said:

Lighting is popular among fans. The games she's in are not.

Yeah. I know that link posted was just for Japan but she seems to be pretty popular among all fandom. I've heard many people say that even if they didn't really enjoy the games they liked Lightning and she was the best thing about them.

Granted, she's not very well written, her motivations and intentions are all over the place (then again nothing in that game is well written), but she has a cool design, somehow even managing to get away with the ridiculous pink hair, she's not sexualized, which is... maybe a first for a female character in a japanese game? Until Lightining Returns that is: just by playing the demo you can see that the character designers jumped the shark and nuked the fridge as far as revealing outfits go.

#18 Posted by Pffrbt (6311 posts) -

Until Lightining Returns that is: just by playing the demo you can see that the character designers jumped the shark and nuked the fridge as far as revealing outfits go.

At least Lightning has nothing to reveal since she's flat as a pancake and virtually has no butt to speak of.

#19 Posted by Shmiity (4957 posts) -

Wow. Maybe the 64/100 on metacritic will help shame him into retirement. That's awful. What is this, Crapcom?

#20 Posted by firefox59 (4306 posts) -

@firefox59 said:

@Black_Knight_00 said:

Lighting is popular among fans. The games she's in are not.

Yeah. I know that link posted was just for Japan but she seems to be pretty popular among all fandom. I've heard many people say that even if they didn't really enjoy the games they liked Lightning and she was the best thing about them.

Granted, she's not very well written, her motivations and intentions are all over the place (then again nothing in that game is well written), but she has a cool design, somehow even managing to get away with the ridiculous pink hair, she's not sexualized, which is... maybe a first for a female character in a japanese game? Until Lightining Returns that is: just by playing the demo you can see that the character designers jumped the shark and nuked the fridge as far as revealing outfits go.

I'm not quite sure what you mean bu that. Her motivation was always to save her sister. She might have been iffy on how she felt about Serah and Snow, but she was always determined to save her. The outfits thing seems to be a money grab which kinda makes me sad. That or they or trying to get people interested in the game.

As for positive Japanese female protagonists. Check the Tales games. Even if most of the girls are generally unsure of themselves in that typical RPG manner, they are not sexualized in the slightest.

#21 Edited by Black_Knight_00 (17991 posts) -

I'm not quite sure what you mean bu that. Her motivation was always to save her sister. She might have been iffy on how she felt about Serah and Snow, but she was always determined to save her. The outfits thing seems to be a money grab which kinda makes me sad. That or they or trying to get people interested in the game.

As for positive Japanese female protagonists. Check the Tales games. Even if most of the girls are generally unsure of themselves in that typical RPG manner, they are not sexualized in the slightest.

"I will destroy Cocoon"
"I will protect Cocoon"
"I will destroy Eden to protect Cocoon"
"I will destroy Cocoon to destroy the Fal'cie"
Ok, she wants to save Serah but what does she plan to do? I guess confuson is to be expected since the l'cie don't know what they are supposed to do.

#22 Posted by bowchicka07 (1064 posts) -

Tired of FF XIII crap... make a new Tactics please, way overdue.

#23 Posted by Randolph (10322 posts) -

Tired of FF XIII crap... make a new Tactics please, way overdue.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more of Ramza Beoulve.

#24 Posted by bowchicka07 (1064 posts) -

@Randolph said:

@bowchicka07 said:

Tired of FF XIII crap... make a new Tactics please, way overdue.

I certainly wouldn't mind seeing more of Ramza Beoulve.

Doesn't even have to be him. FF Tactics Advance was amazing as well but I think most people didn't play it because it was on Game Boy Advance.

Marche or Ramza either or would be nice fit for a tactics remake.

They also could just start fresh.

#25 Posted by CarnageHeart (18315 posts) -

FF13-2 sold less than 20% of the number of copies FF13 did. It absolutely insane that as consumers flee the series, Square is telling itself 'Wow, we are doing great!'. They were awesome in the PS1 era, but nowadays they wouldn't even my list of the top 5 jrpg developers (Atlus, NIS, Level 5, From and even Nintendo rank above them).

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/11/27/lightning-returns-lowest-opening-sales-final-fantasy-xiii-game/

(2009) Final Fantasy XIII – 1,501,964

(2011) Final Fantasy XIII-2 – 524,217

(2013) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII – 277,082

Opening sales of Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII were 53% of Final Fantasy XIII-2′s numbers and 18% of Final Fantasy XIII’s launch. Final Fantasy XIII-2 sales were 35% of Final Fantasy XIII’s launch.

#26 Posted by Randolph (10322 posts) -

Maybe we're in the echo chamber. I loved FFXIII for both its world and its characters, though the battle system is what I love most about it. Maybe more people liked the game than you think.

You think so?

FF13-2 sold less than 20% of the number of copies FF13 did. It absolutely insane that as consumers flee the series, Square is telling itself 'Wow, we are doing great!'. They were awesome in the PS1 era, but nowadays they wouldn't even my list of the top 5 jrpg developers (Atlus, NIS, Level 5, From and even Nintendo rank above them).

http://www.siliconera.com/2013/11/27/lightning-returns-lowest-opening-sales-final-fantasy-xiii-game/

(2009) Final Fantasy XIII – 1,501,964

(2011) Final Fantasy XIII-2 – 524,217

(2013) Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII – 277,082

Opening sales of Lightning Returns: Final Fantasy XIII were 53% of Final Fantasy XIII-2′s numbers and 18% of Final Fantasy XIII’s launch. Final Fantasy XIII-2 sales were 35% of Final Fantasy XIII’s launch.

Apparently not. I said it earlier in the thread already if they were going by sales data and not forum feedback, the message they would get is still "we do not like this crap, please stop making it".

#27 Posted by vl4d_l3nin (684 posts) -

@Pffrbt said:

I don't understand how Lightning could possibly be popular in any culture. There's just nothing there, her personality is as dry and as interesting as sandpaper.

They should've disregarded any sense of subtlety and called her "Ice".

Still, I'd put her above Squall. Lightning at least had a reason for being so stoic (military career, older sister to a carefree girl) while Squall was just an angst ridden douche.

#28 Posted by Randolph (10322 posts) -

@vl4d_l3nin: The farther I get away from when FFVIII came out, the more I tend to agree that he really didn't have as much reason to be so angst ridden as he acted. To me the best male character in the series is either Zidane or Balthier. FFIX being the game that showed how great traditional FANTASY Final Fantasy can be, and FFXII being the game that showed you can change things up without completely destroying the identity of the series.

FFXII has the opposite of the FFVIII problem for me, the farther away I get from when it came out, the more I appreciate it.

#29 Posted by Jacanuk (3461 posts) -

@Randolph said:

Did you catch this news yet? I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted as I'm reading it. Apparently, the current director of the series believes Claire "Lightning" Farron is wildly popular, and is floating the idea that she could appear in future FF games, this comes on the heels of the recent revelation that the game formerly known as Versus XIII, now FFVX, will maintain it's links to the mythology of the FFXIII series in general.

Are they honestly not aware of how much damage the XIII series has done to their franchise? Are they honestly not aware that the whole cast is generally seen by most gamers as the worst and most unlikeable in the series history? I just don't understand when exactly it is SE executives decided to climb into an echo chamber and tell each other how awesome everything they do is.

Is SE purposefully ignoring feedback, or are they just ignorant? My hopes for FFXV, or as some fondly call it, Final Fantasy May Cry, grow dimmer by the day. I used to not understand the severe dislike some of my colleagues at another forum had for Motomu Toriyama, but I think I get it now.

From his wiki page...

"For Final Fantasy VII, Toriyama designed events such as the ones taking place at the Honey Bee Inn"

Ah. Right. I still have nightmares about "the group room".

Considering that the game has been made again and again i guess with minimal development costs the sales have been good enough to call it a "massive success" so why not make another game.

And who cares what some vocal fans say? taking from your other thread , its the developers game and why should they listen to some "fanboys" complaints.

#30 Edited by Randolph (10322 posts) -

@Jacanuk said:

Considering that the game has been made again and again i guess with minimal development costs the sales have been good enough to call it a "massive success" so why not make another game.

And who cares what some vocal fans say? taking from your other thread , its the developers game and why should they listen to some "fanboys" complaints.

When you look at the sales slide the series has suffered going from the previous games into FFXIII, and then the massive tumble the sequels to that game took, it's hard to accept the idea that it's just vocal fans or fanboys who are upset with the current direction of the series. If that is the thought process they have though, it's a very short sighted one.

Sure, the two sequels may been cheap to make, thus lowering what they needed to sell to be a "success". But is that cheap easy money in the short term worth the long term damage to the series in lost reputation and prestige? The FFXIII experiment will hurt FFXV, no matter if it's actually better than the XIII series. Then we'll be stuck in the same loop where they have to make two uninspired needless sequels to recoup their initial losses, and that will continue until the series just dies from lack of interest.

#31 Edited by gamingqueen (31062 posts) -

I'm sad about the state of gaming in general and not just the new line of Final Fantasy games. It won't be too long until the title alone won't be enough to sell the games.

I wouldn't blame the "Japanese culture" either. A lot of them are hoping for those "gamblers" to disappear whether in video games industry or anime and manga. I doubt they think of Lightning games as masterpieces or the best thing to ever happen to the series or anything special, they're just video games and they'd rather kill time playing those games while other different promising games emerge.

#32 Edited by mariokarthero (168 posts) -

I heard that the latter Final Fantasy games have been receiving less positive reviews!! What the hell happened to Square Enix??

#33 Posted by vl4d_l3nin (684 posts) -

@Pffrbt said:

@Black_Knight_00 said:
Until Lightining Returns that is: just by playing the demo you can see that the character designers jumped the shark and nuked the fridge as far as revealing outfits go.

At least Lightning has nothing to reveal since she's flat as a pancake and virtually has no butt to speak of.

I'd disagree with that. She fills Yuna's sphere hunter outfit nicely.

#34 Edited by nicecall (428 posts) -

im not a fan of lightening, no personality and has a manish voice. she could be a man.

#35 Edited by Jag85 (4195 posts) -

@Randolph said:

@JangoWuzHere said:

She's popular in japan

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2013/01/japan-ranks-their-favorite-female-characters-from-the-final-fantasy-series/

JAPAN!! Oh Japan, how I wish I understood you. I really do. Clearly they meant to vote for Terra. :P

Or Rydia.

I'd even give them Yuna, Fran, or Ashe. But Lightning?

I just don't understand the how and why of that.

It's really not that hard to see why Lightning is more popular than your might think. People seem to forget just how popular Lightning is among fangirls. A lot of fangirls, and even feminists, liked the whole "badass" female super-soldier thing that Lightning has going for her, i.e. like a female Cloud. And in Japan's case, fangirls make up a huge chunk of the fanbase.

While Terra, Rydia and Yuna might be better characters, they kind of lack that "badass" super-soldier attitude of Lightning, who's so self-dependent that she doesn't need any man to help her (I never completed XIII though, so can't say for sure). Yeah, she's a shallow jerk and an unlikable ice queen, but it's no different to how many fanboys love a good ol' ultra-masculine "badass" anti-hero regardless of how much of a shallow jerk he might be.

#36 Edited by gamingqueen (31062 posts) -

@Jag85 said:

@Randolph said:

@JangoWuzHere said:

She's popular in japan

http://www.novacrystallis.com/2013/01/japan-ranks-their-favorite-female-characters-from-the-final-fantasy-series/

JAPAN!! Oh Japan, how I wish I understood you. I really do. Clearly they meant to vote for Terra. :P

Or Rydia.

I'd even give them Yuna, Fran, or Ashe. But Lightning?

I just don't understand the how and why of that.

It's really not that hard to see why Lightning is more popular than your might think. People seem to forget just how popular Lightning is among fangirls. A lot of fangirls, and even feminists, liked the whole "badass" female super-soldier thing that Lightning has going for her, i.e. like a female Cloud. And in Japan's case, fangirls make up a huge chunk of the fanbase.

While Terra, Rydia and Yuna might be better characters, they kind of lack that "badass" super-soldier attitude of Lightning, who's so self-dependent that she doesn't need any man to help her (I never completed XIII though, so can't say for sure). Yeah, she's a shallow jerk and an unlikable ice queen, but it's no different to how many fanboys love a good ol' ultra-masculine "badass" anti-hero regardless of how much of a shallow jerk he might be.

I would agree that her attitude does make her come off as this strong female but the idea of a "badass Lightning" was destroyed when they decided to add a million other useless character with her in FXIII. I was under the impression that she was the face of FFXIII until I played the game. Square fails at both plot driven games and "character based" games.

#37 Posted by Articuno76 (18630 posts) -

Pretty sure this series and Lightning are way more popular in Japan.

The funny thing is, forum discontent with the franchise on the whole is shared by most Japanese message boards :S

But even that can't explain Lightning's popularity.

#38 Edited by WR_Platinum (4666 posts) -

Its really simple. A forum with a small community like GS is nothing compared to the fanbase of FFXIII. users here are but a small percentage that the negative thoughts are like snow flakes in 50 degree weather, they won't stick but instead, disappear.

XIII is no the best of the FF franchise, but its games have been pretty good to the majority.

#39 Posted by pupp3t_mast3r (141 posts) -
@Randolph said:

Did you catch this news yet? I'm honestly sort of flabbergasted as I'm reading it. Apparently, the current director of the series believes Claire "Lightning" Farron is wildly popular, and is floating the idea that she could appear in future FF games, this comes on the heels of the recent revelation that the game formerly known as Versus XIII, now FFVX, will maintain it's links to the mythology of the FFXIII series in general.

Are they honestly not aware of how much damage the XIII series has done to their franchise? Are they honestly not aware that the whole cast is generally seen by most gamers as the worst and most unlikeable in the series history? I just don't understand when exactly it is SE executives decided to climb into an echo chamber and tell each other how awesome everything they do is.

Is SE purposefully ignoring feedback, or are they just ignorant? My hopes for FFXV, or as some fondly call it, Final Fantasy May Cry, grow dimmer by the day. I used to not understand the severe dislike some of my colleagues at another forum had for Motomu Toriyama, but I think I get it now.

From his wiki page...

"For Final Fantasy VII, Toriyama designed events such as the ones taking place at the Honey Bee Inn"

Ah. Right. I still have nightmares about "the group room".

I share your confusion with Squeenix's policy in regards to Lightning and the FF-13 series. I think most people who enjoyed FF-13 take it out of context to the previous FF games and as a standalone 13 was a solid game but nothing to write home about. Personally I have written off expecting another decent FF game and it seems Square has to, since they're more focussed or re-releasing the classics and using the franchise name to experiment with new mechanics regardless of the damage it does.

Bravely Default seems to be their spiritual successor though.