Diversity in Gaming

Why is that every time diversity in gaming is brought up people get hostile? What is the deal with that? Why is it so hard to be quasi inclusive when making a game with humans in it?

Humans are overated.... I say we continue the trend of weird video game characters like Meat Boy and Bandage Girl !

Hell even Rayman and has Entourage were pretty Diverse.... :p

Thing is even if we get racial, Gender, and age Diversity right.... They'l still be portrayed poorly simply because they're video game characters....

And this is no reflection on my personal opinion on the matter, but I think it has something to do with any group getting upset when an outside source trys to tell them what they should be doing.

Well having non human characters alleviates the problem without a doubt. Humans being overrated? Hmmm I am not sure what the even means.

Its an entertainment medium historically dominated by male users. Which is why games have typically been led by male main characters(white main characters, specifically). Its just market awareness.

The problem is that this creates a cycle and it becomes harder for girls to become interested, as nobody is really paying attention to them as a large enough market to cater to. So when people talk about wanting to change things, it comes down to developers getting pressure to include female characters where they may not have previously. But marketing departments probably don't particularly like this. They don't want to have to take the potential hit to sales and be the martyr for the sake of increasing female interest in games. And like matty says above, developers aren't gonna be happy about people telling them how they should make their game or risk being judged sexist or whatever if they don't. It is a bit unfair, but its also somewhat understandable as they are really the main ones that can enact change.

I do think things are changing for the better already. More girls are becoming enthusiastic about gaming and we see more and more female characters in games. But any paradigm shift is bound to have its rough patches.

@Pedro

To be honest... I don't know either...

So Assassin's Creed Unity will be Launching without any female assassins........ I was about to type another very angry email to Ubisoft but it turns out they had a very good reason...... They ran out of Resources... :p........ The Assassin's Are highly customizable and there just wasn't enough time to record all the Animation, voices, code and various other assets for the Female Assassin's, they said they're working on it though...... Hopefully they keep their word and deliver the Boob friendly Assassins ! :)

www.gamasutra.com/blogs/RobLockhart/20140610/219082/Systems_of_Magic__Part_2.php

Here you go !

Why is it that you think Diversity is needed in games? also why is it that you and others likeminded think that its the established games that need to change instead of just making your own games the way you think is good.

That way we can sit down and watch which game sells the most and by pure $ for $ see what gamers want.

Why we need diversity in games? Are serious? Are gamers one type of people? Do they all look and behave the same? Should there be only one type of game with only one type of character? What kind absurd question is that? Would you be playing games if there was no diversity in gaming? Would gaming be where its at if people saw no need to change anything? I find your angle rather bizarre to say the least.

I saw that and I was more appalled by their claim to incompetence that their willingness to admit "Having female assassins didn't come to mind and so it was not part of our initial design" than saying it would take too much time and resources to add such a simple feature. They are for the most part recycling animations and most likely using the same damn rig. There female characters in the other games were most likely using the same rig and they can utilize the same animations from those female characters like they are doing for the male. The game doesn't need to implement a female protagonist; kind of too late for that, but at least allow gamers to female option when CoOping.

@Pedro

Actually Ubisoft made the claim that they were building this game from the ground up that means recreating and rerecording everything..... And I've seen what happens when you recycle male animations and models with a different set of Dimensions......, it will work but it will not look good..... People are super critical of stupid things like graphics and they would rather cut out the incomplete attempt at diversity and get a higher score and hype than to deal with "Teh Downgroad" all the way up to release.... That not their fault.... This one's on us !

And all though I agree that its pretty messed up they didn't go in to this with the intention of female assassin's from the start... Critisizing them for trying to correct their mistake half way through is not cool..... They don't deserve that.... My brother likes doing "You should never made the mistake in the 1st place", I'd kick his teeth in If I though it would make me feel better.... You know what.... I still might... :p

@Pedro: Gamers get hostile about most things in gaming.

Because everyone wants their own way.

Because people are pussies. I'm going to use an extreme example so please don't get upset. Let's say nintendo introduced brown, IN ADDITION TO YELLOW, koopa troopas. Websites that bank off "race wars" would be all over mario jumping on a brown turtle, EVEN IF THE ARTISTS SIMPLY THOUGHT BROWN FIT THE PALETTE OF THE GAME. Those websites are the real "racists."

Equality to me is different 'creators' getting the opportunity to make whatever their heart pleases. How it reflects in human culture to consumers at large is a metric thats not easy to guage, but the rights of artists are. People have a right to criticize but also consider fictional works dont hold the same obligations of truth and representation as news reporting and journalism do.

For me I could care less about race or gender, an insufferable asshole character will be an insufferable asshole character, and a deep sympathizing character will be a deep sympathizing character regardless of race or gender.

If someone wants to create their own twisted digital paradise that some users might not feel at home with, its fine to me. TV shows and books have that bias for women's shows or black family shows so whether it has a low install base or following or if its cultural phenom that draws millions its still someone elses work and decision that we agree to participate in. If we were the creators maybe wed make different games but would be a little annoyed at too much professional umbrage taking towards creative decisions. Especially when not all of the community shows the same level of anger at lack of diversity.

Because people have limited scope at some point, and our human biases eventually will show in all our creative works.

Because gaming is art, and the artist's vision comes first.

If the artist doesn't see someone of a different ethnic background or sexual orientation fulfilling their design goal, then who are you to question it? Go make your own game with a gay black transsexual protagonist if that's what you want to see in gaming.

@foxhound_fox

Hey the Artist can do whatever they want..... But that doesn't they shouldn't take responsibility. Art is not a get out jail free card......

Um... freedom of speech much?

the diversity argument.. YAAAAAAAWN

.

@foxhound_fox

I never said they couldn't freely.... I'm saying they just shouldn't expect nobody to embrace what they and we are well within our right to punch them in their stupid faces for speaking freely....

Sounds fair right ?

Gaming contains art and it can be made up of any kind of art. The game design is independent of the art because the art can mold itself to any game design. The story is generally flexible and the core message is rarely affected by the gender of the main character. In addition to all of this the stories in the vast majority of games are mediocre at its very best. And lets be real for just one millisecond, these games are made specifically to make money and NOT to express some "artist vision".

@Pedro

Tell'em Pedro !

Make'em Hurt ! :p

Its because 'muricans don't like dem chinks or brown people in their vidya games plain and simple..

Almost every game has to star your typical white male with an american accent.. seriously i enjoy video games but the cultural,racial&gender homogeneity in it is just annoying if not downright appalling.

Are you really being serious?

What is it that makes you think that instead of doing like everyone else in a free market who sees a lack and makes their own product to fill this gap. You can demand someone else to change the way they make their games? i am actually amazed that you, lulu, Danny, Anita and others like minded individuals have the gall to think that your opinion is so special that its not you who should make a product to fill a imaginary lack which only a very small minority sees

Also the way to change anything again is not to demand others to get in your line by forcing them to by pushing guilt onto people, its to convince them by showing them, and the best way to show businesses is to make a product that sells.

Firstly, you are not a game dev. I am not requesting anything from you. This is a discussion and almost by default it would get heated as predicted in the opening. You and many others like you take any requests or questioning of the lack of diversity in gaming as a demand. You like many others like yourself are somehow deeply offended by such a request. You want me to justify why diversity is needed in gaming. If you need me to try to convince you of the benefits of diversifying gaming then you are beyond reach as far as I am concern. You find it absurd that people would "demand" change. You think is out of line. If everyone just sat back and said nothing you most likely would not have the luxury of playing games far less communicating via the internet. Also your notion of make it yourself mentallity is rather silly. In a perfect world such a request would be quite doable but to simply default to "make it yourself" as the all in one solution is silly. "Make it yourself" is one of the many options. If you don't like something in a product are you going to make it yourself and for every product you have a problem with? Does that sound reasonable? Or call and make a request for change to the company?

Are you really being serious? in a perfect world your request would be doable? thats the words of a dictator who thinks they have the right answer to everything.

No in a perfect world, where a free market exist you and your like-minded sisters would figure out that in a free market if you want something to change you can make your own product and make is it a feminine and full of women and diverse as you see fit. particular when your agenda is nonsense and you have plenty of games fitting with your feminist, diverse ways.

And yes i find it absurd that you and like minded people seem to have the idea that you can speak for me or anyone else and that we should just learn to live with your world picture because its the most correct thing

Because for some reason people feel threatened by the fact that not everyone is like them, and that not everyone is a straight, white man.

@foxhound_fox: "Because gaming is art, and the artist's vision comes first."
Nine times out of ten the "artistic" vision wouldn't be compromised in any way by including some diversity.

"If the artist doesn't see someone of a different ethnic background or sexual orientation fulfilling their design goal, then who are you to question it?"
The person being sold a product.

"Um... freedom of speech much?"
Freedom of speech doesn't mean freedom from criticism.

The fact of the matter is, no artist in today's society is free to express their art as their own. They are caged by critics and people to change their work to suit the "politically correct" which IMO is a bunch of bullshit. One of the reasons I love Quentin Tarantino So much!

If people can bitch, hate and whine about something, they fucking will.

I can't think of any examples of this actually happening.

@Jacanuk

"Also the way to change anything again is not to demand others to get in your line by forcing them to by pushing guilt onto people, its to convince them by showing them, and the best way to show businesses is to make a product that sells."

Yes... And in a medium populated by a bunch of dudes who think girls are "icky", simply have a male protagonist is sale right there..... Developers would already have a diverse set of characters if they're target audience weren't so immature. So Immature they think the reason for they creative choices isn't heavily influence by gamers !

Ummm just recently with the Far cry 4 cover... how they had to change it because it displayed THE BAD GUY as being.....racist? Because apparently bad people have morals and treat every race with respect....you know...just like the GOOD GUY.

I think artists rights are just as important as diverse representation in creative fictional media. Because people in news media get fired all the time, all too easily for 'expressing themselves', as declared authorities on principle and human society, when a gamemaker who doesnt claim that burden of truth can find a target market with their twisted perspectives, and not have to face such a tsunami of social shame and repercussions.

I do consider how it feels for some women who arent as fanserviced as much. They should have their heroines too. It should go back to the 5th & 6th gen sensibilites where female protags were a little more common, and marketing folks didnt focus group the **** out of EVERY single game, while I consider who are the most loyal paying demographics that responds heavily to hardcore games of classic jingoistic themes. Me included. Even if some choose to dig in their heels rather than open up all parts of their world and fiction to every different perspectives and worldview. Because that right should remain for all creators no matter how much capital or commercial power they have whether they be ( feminists, pro lbgt, old school white male jingoish, pro black, pro latino, pro indian, pro asian, dont care either way etc ) and bias is inevitable at some point.

We are discerning enough to filter what we like and hate from each others statements and from other artists, and to see beyond social symbols and face value assets.

Itd be better if we didnt assume terrible things about each other if we dont see eye to eye on game design, but simply recognize our tastes are different.

I feel inspired when I read the history of DOOM/Wolf 3D MK and GTA. They didnt ask a public commitee about the morals of what they put in their games. They had the means and said

'**** it! We're doin this!'

Because its a matter of standing up for this precedent for all creators, of all races and backgrounds to make or say what they enjoy or feel in their bones to create, and make works that are skewed to serve their fantasies too. Their works may synchronize with our modern sensibilities or they may not.

Even if they royally **** up and actually draw a big backlash. Then its a teachable moment but the level of outrage should merit the level of offense.

No work may be free from criticism, but also, none of us consumers are immune from having our feelings possibly hurt or challenged or being dissapointed by the media we hold out our hopes and dreams for either. Nothings truly exalted. Thats what an open marketplace is supposed to be all about.

We're supposed to be exposed to all sorts of ideas that dont sit well along with the stuff that speaks to us. Or stuff we may wonder if we were supposed to be offended by, demographically and decide its pointless to give a shit if it aint personal.

Its not like all authors, game directors and filmmakers are suddenly sick to death of creating 'mary sue protagonists and engaging their own wish fulfillment' in stories. To me, personality is just as or more important than face value aspects of a character

Because it's brought up often enough to be annoying. And because most people naturally don't give a rat's ass about whether their games or movies are 'inclusive' enough.

They didn't change the cover though. It's the same cover they debuted with. And the only people that were upset were a select few morons that don't understand the concept of a bad guy doing bad things.

I'm going to be honest, therefor I expect to get a lot of hate. If I'm making a game, I want it to be appealing to the majority of gamers, aka white males. In order to sell the most it has to be agreeable to the people who supports the product. I can't make money by making a few women, minorities and homosexuals happy.

I don't think you even know what you are arguing about. You're stating things that have already been covered and explained. You are jumping to irrational conclusions. I am not even sure what point you are trying to make besides "I am angry because people want to be represented in gaming". If that statement sounds absurd to you then you understand the very nature of ALL of your posts.

Why does it annoy you?

That's funny, the mobile market is made up of mostly female gamers and the mobile market is growing and cutting into the profits of regular gaming. This has been news for quite sometime. Now explain to me again why you can't make money from this exploding majority female market, sorry I meant few women?

@Pedro: Because mobile gaming offers deep, immersed experiences that allow so much custom character interactions? Yeah I'll get right on Candy Crush Saga featuring those things.

Your point specifically stated that you CANNOT make money from female gamers and I simply pointed out your were wrong. This side note you decided to add does not change that. :)

Yeah because your analogy being unrelated and disingenuous totally thwarts my general-spoken term "can't". >.>

@Pedro: Empathy fail on an epic scale. You shouldn't need to ask this question. You should be able to feel the answer already. But I'll answer anyway:

1) Because those championing diversity always do it in negative terms of "I don't want (anymore of) this" rather than "this is what I want". They then insist they never meant the former, despite it being the exact thing they said.

Notice how they whine constantly about white male characters? Even though what they really want to communicate isn't that white male characters are a problem, but rather the lack of an alternative? Look out for it and you'll see the trend of poor communication everywhere.

Which brings be to my next point:

2) The people championing diversity are extremely judgmental. In particular, they judge people and slam them with labels for their own poor communication (see 1). When in fact it is their own failure to articulate what it is they want. I dunno about you but I don't want to sit around getting labelled and slammed because someone else is shit at conveying their point of view succinctly. That buck should stop with them.

Consider this. :)

All you've done is generalise and say "Equality is good" without any detail as to why.... what are you looking for a medal?

why make another thread on the same subject? did you feel the discussion didn't suit you?

and those statistics speak volumes, over 50% of all are social/puzzle games.... it doesn't even help your case.

@Pffrbt: how about giving some examples....

i mean for gods sake you all just say "I want diversity" but thats all... as if its some holy grail... get off the pedestal and spell it out to us potential "idiots" who even wonder what kind of diversity you are even talking about.

Because it's stupid and unimportant but it's treated like a big issue and brought up often. Being noninclusive doesn't make a game any worse.

Well just look at the hate indie games get from some people. Such a shame, because indie games are awesome