Dissecting Progress..... and Difficulty

I don't usually like to post links in here simply because if something make sense, then I should be able to Explain it myself.... and with that said, Here you go

Vertical progress is therefore in many cases the worse alternative. It is much less interesting than its horizontal counterpart because it does not present the player with anything new or interesting. Instead it usually just makes him fill bars. While this might feel just as good, it’s generally pretty meaningless for the particular system as well as the player and does not significantly affect the gameplay in any way (as demonstrated in the satirical Progress Quest). In many cases this form of progress is used to trick the player into believing that he himself has learned something. The urge to learn and master challenges (according to Raph Koster the root of all fun in games) is projected onto the virtual and numerical “learning” of the avatar.

On top of that, problems concerning the difficulty level arise: If the avatar gets stronger and stronger, the enemies have to keep up. However, the player should also feel more powerful over time (so the enemies have to grow in strength slower), but at the same time regularly face new challenges (so the enemies have to grow in strength faster). This conflict is usually circumvented by letting the game alternate between sections that are way too easy and passages that are genuinely difficult. This is usually a rather poor solution though, since the truly optimal composition (“flow”) of growing player capabilities on one side and more and more challenging gameplay on the other will rarely, if ever, hold up long-term.

Fabian Fischer

I honestly don't know why he calls it "Vertical Progress"....... I think a more apt term would be "Abstract Progress".... Thats what it is, isn't it ? If you've read the blog, he mentions other forms progression, Horizontal Progression which happens when you unlock a new set of actual gameplay mechanics, not many games do this in this day and age (Metroid, DarkSiders, Batman, etc). and Implicit Progression, in which the player, yes the man behind the controller, gets better and better in a game that mostly stays the same (no new mechanics and no chnages to stats), like Fighting Games... both of these seem pretty practical compared to the Numerical method of Vertical Progression, in which there no new game play mechanics AND the player doesn't learn anything new or get better at the game since your Avatar will be doing all that for the player..... its essentially a watered down version of actual progression, Hence... Abstract Progression, and as for difficulty.... if numbers matter more than anything you learn or any gameplay mechanics then what you have there is Lulu's very own: Abstract Difficulty (believe me, its gonna be a thing) ;)

If a game tries to hide its bad design choices by causing difficulty spikes, then it's not a very good game. And not every game with the "vertical" progress system is bad, as most of the well-designed ones use level scaling to counteract your progress, giving you a reason to truly utilize the new skills with higher stats you just obtained by wielding them against tougher foes and forcing you to instead strategize and not rely on just being more powerful. That's something this article failed to mention because it didn't do enough research. All of these progression systems have their own strengths and weaknesses, and ways around their inherent flaws. By ignoring that and choosing to say "this system sucks because it doesn't fit my play style" is very narrow-minded.

@mastermetal777:

The vertical progression has no strengths.... only weaknesses.

And if you want people to strategize and utilise their skills then use a progression method that isnt so abstract, one that doesnt unbalancing anything by simply changing their numerical values. I mean thats just obvious. Feel free to research it.... the results will back this up. they will also back up the part I underlined in bold text.

@Lulu_Lulu: I do my research. And this article is so hellbent o proving a point that it ignores the design workarounds for most of the problems it lists. Vertical scaling is a great system for micromanaging equipment and skills, which is itself a worthy skill in today's world. It works when you take the time to pay attention to the details and plan around your next objective, with a little practice to get it right. Again, helpful as a real life skill.

@mastermetal777:

Vertical Scaling defeats the purpose of vertical progression.... it even defeats the purpose of tricking the player into thinking tgey actually made progress if all the numbers simply just scale to one another.

At least the no scaling power fantasy method achieves its sad and shallow purpose. Level scaling has no purpose.

@Lulu_Lulu: you've completely ignored my argument yet again. Fair enough. Believe whatever you wanna believe.

@mastermetal777:

Perhaps you actually do believe filling progress bars is a skill.... I don't know how your mind works, but its definitely not consistent with such a simple concept. Numerical Progression isn't real progression, its just a form of conditioning behaviour. Its not a belief, it just is.....

@Lulu_Lulu: it's more than filling a progress bar if the game actually has skill-based mechanics. Look at Destiny. Sure it has leveling, but it also involves having skill with shooting gameplay. Shadow of Mordor has leveling, but again, using weapons actually takes some skill. Dark Souls relies most on the player reacting at the right time before they get killed, with stats giving them more weapons options that don't necessarily mean things will get easier. Deus Ex relies on your skills with stealth and/or shooting and offers a leveling system as well. All games mentioned are considered RPGs and they all have some use of numbers. And yet that's not what they're about. It's about customizing your play style and building according to it. If a player has to use numbers in order to see the progression, so be it.

But then you'd have to accuse all games of this. You see, every game uses numbers. Some just choose to hide the numbers for whatever reason. I bet you if every game had their numbers displayed, you'd complain about that instead of realizing that the game is still great in spite of the numbers used.

i didn't read but i am willing to bet is a thread full of ignorance. about rpgs.

@Krelian-co: it pretty much is. But then again, what else do you expect from Lulu at this point?

I just noticed something about level scaling..... when a developer implements it they dont do it in way to keep you balanced with all the other enemies... if that were the case then there would be no reason to progress....

Actually tge tougher enemies will always hit slightly harder and have slighter higher defenses then you'd be more comfortable with... but not so tedious that it wouldnt seem worth the trouble.

You know those cartoons where a dude would ride a donkey while holding s fishing pole with a carrot tied to the end of it... dangling it in front of the donkey's face ? Yep thats pretty much how it works... its designed to keep you progressing for as long as possible.

In the future they are going to have dynamic vertical progression ... where the the level of scaling will be different for each person dependind on how they play. They're already metrics to study peoples play patterns to determine what changes to make in sequels.... the next step woulf be to implement a real time version that can alter itself within a single game. Combine that with subscriptions services and micro transaction. Pretty soon the mobile game design philosphy will worm its way into console games.

well i guess it was obvious, all he does is argue the same over and over.... and over and over even when people have already destroyed every "argument" he has, on top of that the fact that most people dislike him and well, this thread is going places

@mastermetal777:

I believe we already talked about this. The mechanics and the numbers are inversly proportional to one another....and Im sure you can remrmber the rest.

As for your second point. I know every game has numbers but my problem has never been with the presencr or visibility of those numbers... its the the changing of those numbers that bothers me. Dark Souls isnt going to better better or worse if you show or hide the numbers.... its the fact the game was built around numbers more than it was around actually gameplay that upsets tge balance.

@Krelian-co:

I never said anything about RPGs. If you made a bet... you just lost it.

@Lulu_Lulu: and yet you continue to ignore how Dark Souls actually has a strong combat system based on methodical blocking and timing in spite of the stats. Like I said, you're so obsessed with the numbers that you ignore the actual moment to moment gameplay in most games, many of which are done extremely well considering.

I honestly can't think of a single level-based game where grinding isn't a solution except for Dark Souls... If you aren't gonna play against other players, then the simplest way to defeat your enemies is to simply reach a level where they can't hurt you. Take Pokemon or Final Fantasy as examples, you don't need strategy when your characters are so powerful nothing can touch them, and not a single game actually finishes its story at a point where the enemies are at a maxed out level, which always leaves you plenty of room to just grind to defeat the final boss with more ease.

Games like portal, however, won't have this problem because they don't depend on numbers, rather on what you have or haven't learned along the way.

Zelda games are also a good example of a well designed difficulty curve, in my opinion.

he can't know that, he played it for 15 minutes, yet he thinks he knows the game inside out lul.

@Krelian-co: don't you love when people play a game for only a few minutes and think they know the game as well as the veterans do?

@mastermetal777:

Yes. And having better gear and stats negates the need master its combat system. Which is really shitty by the way. dont even get me started on the usable items... it seems like you can drastically turn the tables by literally throwing things at it (bombs, knives, arrows, weapon buffs etc)

Skill my foot, Dark Souls is begging to grind for souls and steam roll through everything either using brute force or lame kiting tactics.

specially a game like dark souls, it's terrible when an ignorant tries to talk about something without knowledge and argues with people who do know, but sadly there are many people like him.

@Krelian-co:

Those 15 minutes cover every single one of the gameplay mechanics.

From there on the only new things you'll encounter are trial and error enemies and traps, and stats.

sure, if you say so.

it doesn't matter what kind of progression the games offer, if it's fake or whatever the important part here is if the game's fun for the player or not. Unless you're one of those hipsters that make "art" by deliberately trying to make boring games like Gone Home that offer hardly any gameplay to make a statement then I don't think we should really be discussing this pointless crap in the way you're pushing it. Because there is no right or wrong here, only opinions about what you prefer.

I fully agree with everything @mastermetal777: has said BTW.

@Krelian-co:

Lol... copy cat !

@Lulu_Lulu: yeah, that's not how it works. Trying having a great set of weapons against an army of skeletons in that game and see how far you get. You'll lose more souls than you can pick up if you're not dodging and carefully choosing when to attack. Or even going after dragons. Armor assists, but doesn't break the game at all.

@mastermetal777:

Its not the Skeletons that nake it tricky. Its the "army" part. Every game play mechanic was designed for one on one encounters... with the exception of massive sweeping swords. .... doesn't matter if its skeletons, hollows, bosses, golems, rats, walking bushes, etcs.

If the number of enemies cant sustain my theory about how stats solve anything then move on to the cheap tactics and FOO Strategies, use ledges and cliffs, exploit the AI's in ability to follow you in certain areas (between undead burg and dark root basin as on example) and ofcourse the game's ultimate exploit MAGIC..... stand far away and throw whatever magic you got until the problem goes away.

None of this requires anymore skill than tying ones shoelaces.... and a lot of patience.

lol. This thread is pretty much classic Lulu.

There are cases to be made for this however Darksiders and Diablo are both terrible examples. The enemies and players in Darksiders gain more health (or stats) to compensate for damage increases so you are in essence doing the same thing throughout the game. You also gain new abilities in Diablo that can drastically alter gameplay as well as gear with boosts that alter things other than stats. Both are examples that nullify the author's point. It's hard to find games these days that only compare stats to stats. Most games are more complex and have multiple facets that affect gameplay.

Although thinking about it for a bit, Destiny is a great example of this. You have the same basic weapon types for the entire game. You gain no new abilities past level 5. The enemies scale with you so that you actually can't kill certain enemies if they are too powerful. The game this copies off of, Borderlands, has many alterations that keep one from realizing what you are actually doing. This makes Borderlands fun, as things are changing, rather than stupidly dull, like Destiny.

I'm not going to bother with...well, the vast majority of anything here, since it's a Lulu thread and a 31° afternoon...but how does any of this account for RPGs that don't use level scaling?

TL;DR version for you guys

@Planeforger:

If they dont use level scaling then the game will get "easier" as you keep progressing through it.

@GreySeal9:

I dont dissapoint. ;)

@firefox59:

Thats essentially what every player wants.... easy progress but they want it to be complex enough to make it seem like they did some actuall work.... its pretty clever.... but the results are the same.... any emphasis on numbers will only hurt the gameplay..... even if the was already button mashingly tedious from the outside.

Interesting read but I feel that mastermetal777 pretty much nailed this as the best answers/post really. To me, Skyrim is a good example. In Skyrim, the player is giving a choices, planning your attacks, level system is great, more exploration, and it keeps the players motivated. Destiny has grinding but in a somewhat way, the system is not that good but it does keep the player motivated. That said, these systems do have there pros/cons but however, it depends on the game that developers are making.

@davillain-:

Thats what the very reason why they use that type of progression.... its to het peoplr to play it more.... it also works on me too. It really is a force to be reckoned with.