'Dead or Alive fans demanded larger breasts' says DoA5 director

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#51 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -
But its clear who DOA is marketed at, GLARINGLY obvious when you factor in the volleyball games too.Lucky_Krystal
Don't forget the DoA movie, 80 minutes 40 of which are slow motion ass or boob shots
#52 Posted by 1PMrFister (3134 posts) -

Good for Team Ninja. I play games to play games. If I wanted to masturbate I'd watch porn.

#53 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"][QUOTE="seanmcloughlin"]

This is the reason I've never taken DoA seriously. A game like Mortal Kombat, sure, has the scantily clad women but it butchers them up into pieces rather than make them play volleyball.

PolygonBust

See, here's the thing. Even people who only play Dead or Alive for the boobs won't admit it. They'll say it's for the gameplay, and that boobs are just a nice bonus...

Why do you care so much about shame when buying a videogame that is sexualized, but not other forms of (sometimes even more explicit) media? What if you genuinely find the DoA and Beach volleyball games fun to play? Should you still feel ashamed for enjoying them?

I really think your out of line judging people on such purchases. You have no idea what that person is like, why assume that they have some kind of mental disorder where they find pixelated characters "attractive" but not real life human beings? If I find a game is fun/original/appealing, I'm going to buy it. Doesn't matter if the person behind the counter thinks I'm a lonley virgin buying a game like DoA or a hopeless nerd buying Skyrim. At the end of the day I'm still a much more accomplished person than the deadbeat working at Walmart.

Have you ever heard of this thing where people ordering porn in hotels got fed up about their purchases being listed on the bill, so lots of hotels actually changed that? Alternatively, have you heard of that thing that's been done in lots of places where guys arrested for buying hookers had their names plastered in the local paper and then prostitution actually went down? Yeah...an actual criminal record wasn't enough to stop them. But being outed in the community as a dude who's pathetic enough to actually hire a hooker? That did it. And while we're at it, why do people wear nice looking clothes instead of walking around in pants that are riddled with moth holes and shirts that are stained with ketchup?
#54 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -
[QUOTE="PolygonBust"] At the end of the day I'm still a much more accomplished person than the deadbeat working at Walmart. MrGeezer
Have you ever heard of this thing where people ordering porn in hotels got fed up about their purchases being listed on the bill, so lots of hotels actually changed that? Alternatively, have you heard of that thing that's been done in lots of places where guys arrested for buying hookers had their names plastered in the local paper and then prostitution actually went down? Yeah...an actual criminal record wasn't enough to stop them. But being outed in the community as a dude who's pathetic enough to actually hire a hooker? That did it. And while we're at it, why do people wear nice looking clothes instead of walking around in pants that are riddled with moth holes and shirts that are stained with ketchup?

The end of his post is still more relevant than your response. And about the hooker thing? Did it ever occur to you that it was less about "shame" than the risk of losing his wife/girlfriend/whole family over it?
#55 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Long story short: this seems to be confirming EXACTLY what I was saying all along. The idea of building a successful franchise on boobs in this day and age is a pretty freaking ridiculous idea. Because $60 masturbation material for preteen boys is a pretty freaking hard sell when ANYONE has very easy access to free pornography. Boobs might be a nice bonus if a game is solid, but most people AREN'T buying any videogame primarily for the boobs. That doesn't work. And if it ever worked, it's working less and less. DoA is a GAME franchise, and first and foremost it just has to successfully brand itself as a good GAME franchise. There's no other way to put it. The hardcore devoted fanbase who keeps buying the games just for boobs, isn't enough. Sales numbers sort of make that very very evident. If the focus on catering to creepy perverts has resulted in nothing but declining sales since 2001, then it's time to either change the franchise enough to appeal to a larger audience, or ditch the franchise altogether and start from scratch with a new one.MrGeezer

DOA is not predicated on breasts.

That assertion is something you have manufactured and has no basis in reality.

The interview merely states that some of the feedback from fans included requests for larger breasts. The developer was clearly taken aback by this and apparently opted to include this aesthetic in the final build. (Something he shouldn't have done)

That is a far cry from breasts being the central focus of the franchise.

DOA has always been a premiere fighter and in more recent years it has become widely played in the tournament scenes. DOA5, above all, is actually an attempt to make the franchise tourney-viable and create the same types of enduring communities as those enjoyed by franchises such as Tekken, SF, etc.

You also erroneously assume that those giving this feedback somehow represent a significant fraction of the fan base when in fact we have no idea how many people actually made the request nor do we know their age, demographic, etc. You've taken this one small bit of information and weaved this ridiculous tapestry of gross conjecture without an iota of data to back up your assertions.

Those sales figures you posted earlier are also inconsequential. The DOA Volleyball games were never a part of the fighting franchise and DOA has almost always been a console exclusive title, timed or otherwise, which means sales fluctuate and are generally much lower than a multiplatform release. There's a lengthy history attached to this franchise that you haven't bothered to research and instead you toss around pejoratives and make baseless claims for reasons that elude me.

Regardless, DOA5 is a quality fighter and hardly as risqué as some people are suggesting.

Then again, unlike many shooting off their mouths about the quality of this game, I've actually played it.

#56 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

I wanted to add that the amount of blanket insults being hurled at people who play this franchise is disgusting.

I fully understand that many of the base life forms that dwell on the web require a diet rich in derision and hostility to buoy their sense of worth but even by Internet standards some of the illogicality on display here is staggering.

There is nothing in DOA5 that is any more provocative than what can be observed in any number of other popular franchises, both within and outside of the genre.

And an extra shout-out to the bigots who felt the need to slander the entirety of Japanese culture based on a video game and some anime.

Very, very classy.

#57 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]Long story short: this seems to be confirming EXACTLY what I was saying all along. The idea of building a successful franchise on boobs in this day and age is a pretty freaking ridiculous idea. Because $60 masturbation material for preteen boys is a pretty freaking hard sell when ANYONE has very easy access to free pornography. Boobs might be a nice bonus if a game is solid, but most people AREN'T buying any videogame primarily for the boobs. That doesn't work. And if it ever worked, it's working less and less. DoA is a GAME franchise, and first and foremost it just has to successfully brand itself as a good GAME franchise. There's no other way to put it. The hardcore devoted fanbase who keeps buying the games just for boobs, isn't enough. Sales numbers sort of make that very very evident. If the focus on catering to creepy perverts has resulted in nothing but declining sales since 2001, then it's time to either change the franchise enough to appeal to a larger audience, or ditch the franchise altogether and start from scratch with a new one.Grammaton-Cleric

DOA is not predicated on breasts.

That assertion is something you have manufactured and has no basis in reality.

The interview merely states that some of the feedback from fans included requests for larger breasts. The developer was clearly taken aback by this and apparently opted to include this aesthetic in the final build. (Something he shouldn't have done)

That is a far cry from breasts being the central focus of the franchise.

DOA has always been a premiere fighter and in more recent years it has become widely played in the tournament scenes. DOA5, above all, is actually an attempt to make the franchise tourney-viable and create the same types of enduring communities as those enjoyed by franchises such as Tekken, SF, etc.

You also erroneously assume that those giving this feedback somehow represent a significant fraction of the fan base when in fact we have no idea how many people actually made the request nor do we know their age, demographic, etc. You've taken this one small bit of information and weaved this ridiculous tapestry of gross conjecture without an iota of data to back up your assertions.

Those sales figures you posted earlier are also inconsequential. The DOA Volleyball games were never a part of the fighting franchise and DOA has almost always been a console exclusive title, timed or otherwise, which means sales fluctuate and are generally much lower than a multiplatform release. There's a lengthy history attached to this franchise that you haven't bothered to research and instead you toss around pejoratives and make baseless claims for reasons that elude me.

Regardless, DOA5 is a quality fighter and hardly as risqué as some people are suggesting.

Then again, unlike many shooting off their mouths about the quality of this game, I've actually played it.

Actually dude, you've got it completely backwards. I didn't fabricate the "DoA is just about breasts" thing, that was going on since the first few replies here. And as you notice, I explicitly expressed doubt that fans would stop buying the games if breasts were downplayed, and I explicitly stated that people don't spend $60 on a freaking videogame just because of breasts. Sales numbers actually support this. Because you've really got two series here: the fighters and the beach volleyball games, and BOTH have had steadily declining sales. You miss the entire point: if DoA fans only buy the games for boobs, then how come the beach bikini games have also been doing just as badly (or worse) than the fighting side of the franchise? Even if DoA was just about breasts, then it still makes sense to "alienate the fanbase", because the games just aren't selling very well. BTW, on the topic of shame, you make a very good point. Regardless of how good DoA is, they are intended to be a serious fighting game with the focus on good gameplay. Yet there still exists the perception that these games are just about the breasts (and no, I didn't fabricate that at all, I simply commented on it). There seem to be quite a few gamers who refuse to take these games seriously because they think the series is just about breasts. And I really wonder if that is a big part of the reason WHY sales have steadily been dropping. Purely because of image and perception, and fans not wanting to be "one of those creepy DoA fans". Here we have a serious fighting game franchise that somehow gets perceived as being about nothing but boobs, and gamers sure as hell seem to be avoiding it. Just correlation, or is than an element of causation here too? I don't know. But we've seen several people here comment that they can't take the franchise seriously because it's just about boobs. I highly suspect that on some level, that idea (regardless of if it's right or wrong) is at least part of the reason why people just aren't buying the games.
#58 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -
[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"] The end of his post is still more relevant than your response. And about the hooker thing? Did it ever occur to you that it was less about "shame" than the risk of losing his wife/girlfriend/whole family over it?

What's relevant is that image DOES matter. You can go on and on about "blah blah, I'm an individual" or "blah blah, I buy what I like and I don't care what people think." But the REALITY is that image matters. Old Navy relies on maintaining a certain image, National Geographic relies on maintaining a certain image, and I'm pretty sure that this applies to videogames as well. I don't think there's any doubt that a LOT of people find out about the DoA Beach Volleyball games and see the way that the DoA series has been marketted and just come away with the impression that this stuff looks like the kind of infantile "sexy" material that gets targetted towards pre-teen boys who've never touched a boob.That simply is not contributing to the IMAGE of this as a serious fighting game franchise, and to a large extent I think that's Tecmo's own fault. Now...how much is that image directly responsible for falling sales? I don't know. But this image does persist, even as hardcore gamers overwhelmingly say that DoA series IS great as a fighting game. And I wonder how much that image causes potential customers to buy a different game that does a better job of letting them keep their dignity.
#59 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Actually dude, you've got it completely backwards. I didn't fabricate the "DoA is just about breasts" thing, that was going on since the first few replies here. And as you notice, I explicitly expressed doubt that fans would stop buying the games if breasts were downplayed, and I explicitly stated that people don't spend $60 on a freaking videogame just because of breasts. Sales numbers actually support this. Because you've really got two series here: the fighters and the beach volleyball games, and BOTH have had steadily declining sales. You miss the entire point: if DoA fans only buy the games for boobs, then how come the beach bikini games have also been doing just as badly (or worse) than the fighting side of the franchise? Even if DoA was just about breasts, then it still makes sense to "alienate the fanbase", because the games just aren't selling very well. BTW, on the topic of shame, you make a very good point. Regardless of how good DoA is, they are intended to be a serious fighting game with the focus on good gameplay. Yet there still exists the perception that these games are just about the breasts (and no, I didn't fabricate that at all, I simply commented on it). There seem to be quite a few gamers who refuse to take these games seriously because they think the series is just about breasts. And I really wonder if that is a big part of the reason WHY sales have steadily been dropping. Purely because of image and perception, and fans not wanting to be "one of those creepy DoA fans". Here we have a serious fighting game franchise that somehow gets perceived as being about nothing but boobs, and gamers sure as hell seem to be avoiding it. Just correlation, or is than an element of causation here too? I don't know. But we've seen several people here comment that they can't take the franchise seriously because it's just about boobs. I highly suspect that on some level, that idea (regardless of if it's right or wrong) is at least part of the reason why people just aren't buying the games.MrGeezer

I was responding directly to the comment quoted in my initial rebuttal because it appears you are pushing the notion that DOA is predicated on some adolescent masturbatory imagery. You then proceed to talk about sales data and the notion that this strategy has failed.

If I misread your post then I'll happily retract my statement with the understanding that ANYONE who actually makes such an assertion literally has no idea what they are discussing and should first edify themselves before continuing the debate.

If that's not applicable to you then my apologies for misreading what you wrote.

As to the second half of your post, we really have no idea how well DOA5 has sold yet but while it has been a relatively popular franchise it enjoys nowhere near the success of games like Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc. The biggest stigma related to the franchise has been the broken gameplay, something each iteration has sought to fix and DOA5 might have finally nailed.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the exclusivity of the previous installments were not conducive to broad sales.

I do feel very strongly that the overt sexuality found in the game's aesthetics is entirely unnecessary and only serves to feed the uninformed notions that this franchise is lacking in mechanical depth. In my opinion, they should have left the shaky breasts out of the final build entirely.

#60 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -

I was responding directly to the comment quoted in my initial rebuttal because it appears you are pushing the notion that DOA is predicated on some adolescent masturbatory imagery. You then proceed to talk about sales data and the notion that this strategy has failed.

If I misread your post then I'll happily retract my statement with the understanding that ANYONE who actually makes such an assertion literally has no idea what they are discussing and should first edify themselves before continuing the debate.

If that's not applicable to you then my apologies for misreading what you wrote.

As to the second half of your post, we really have no idea how well DOA5 has sold yet but while it has been a relatively popular franchise it enjoys nowhere near the success of games like Tekken, Soul Calibur, etc. The biggest stigma related to the franchise has been the broken gameplay, something each iteration has sought to fix and DOA5 might have finally nailed.

Also, as I mentioned earlier, the exclusivity of the previous installments were not conducive to broad sales.

I do feel very strongly that the overt sexuality found in the game's aesthetics is entirely unnecessary and only serves to feed the uninformed notions that this franchise is lacking in mechanical depth. In my opinion, they should have left the shaky breasts out of the final build entirely.

Grammaton-Cleric
I guess I can understand your confusion, but I was speaking more from an "even IF DoA was just about the boobs" scenario and commenting that that's just a bad way to work. But I don't think it's just about the boobs. I don't think fans only (or even primarily) buy the games just for the boobs. It's a ridiculous idea, and in the post you quoted, I explicitly said, "Boobs might be a nice bonus if a game is solid, but most people AREN'T buying any videogame primarily for the boobs." DoA fans don't buy the games primarily for breasts. And even if DoA fans did buy games primarily for breasts, it's gotta be impossible to sustain a sucessful franchise just by catering to such a small and steadily shrinking group of perverts. But yeah, I guess I could have made that more clear. I wasn't trying to push the notion that DoA is predicated on adolescent masturbatory imagery. I was arguing from that point of view in an attempt to illustrate why that notion doesn't even make sense. Hell, that's the whole reason I bothered to look up sales numbers in the first place. I kept seeing people make the argument that DoA's fanbase only buys the games for the breasts. And I thought..."wait a minute...if that's the case, then those Extreme Volleyball games should sell better than the actual fighters, and I seriously doubt that's the case." Anyway, I expect DoA5 to sell better than DoA4, if only because it's later in the 360's life cycle so there are obviously more people around who can actually play it. Otherwise, I didn't comment on DoA5's sales. And even if I were to do so, I'd leave PS3 sales completely out of the equation since it isn't fair to compare a multi-console game to a game exclusive to a single console. But yeah...DoA obviously isn't just about breasts. But that perception does exist, and making stuff like the Extreme Volleyball games sure as hell doesn't help to dispel that notion. Yes, I'm aware that it's really a completely separate series, but you can't blame people for connecting them. It contains characters from Dead or Alive and has freaking Dead or Alive in the title. As wrong as the "DoA fans are sad pathetic virgins" stereotype might be, Tecmo sure as hell isn't helping to dispel that notion. And this also does go right down to the Dead or Alive series itself. They should tone down the overt sexualized aesthetics and I always felt like even making the Extreme Volleyball series in the first place was a bad idea. I think that kind of stuff has only served to tarnish the brand, and doesn't do credit to this being a serious game franchise. The sexual reputation of the Dead or Alive series may indeed be wrong and/or exaggerated. But honestly...that's sort of Tecmo's fault.
#61 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -
DOA is not predicated on breasts.MrGeezer
Indeed it isn't, but its marketing revolves around them
#62 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"]DOA is not predicated on breasts.Black_Knight_00
Indeed it isn't, but its marketing revolves around them

I'm not aware of any such marketing as it pertains to DOA5. I do recall a commercial for one of the earlier games with some guys getting all worked up at the Ninja ladies kicking high but that was clearly toungue in cheek.

#63 Posted by PolygonBust (237 posts) -

[QUOTE="PolygonBust"]

[QUOTE="MrGeezer"] See, here's the thing. Even people who only play Dead or Alive for the boobs won't admit it. They'll say it's for the gameplay, and that boobs are just a nice bonus...MrGeezer

Why do you care so much about shame when buying a videogame that is sexualized, but not other forms of (sometimes even more explicit) media? What if you genuinely find the DoA and Beach volleyball games fun to play? Should you still feel ashamed for enjoying them?

I really think your out of line judging people on such purchases. You have no idea what that person is like, why assume that they have some kind of mental disorder where they find pixelated characters "attractive" but not real life human beings? If I find a game is fun/original/appealing, I'm going to buy it. Doesn't matter if the person behind the counter thinks I'm a lonley virgin buying a game like DoA or a hopeless nerd buying Skyrim. At the end of the day I'm still a much more accomplished person than the deadbeat working at Walmart.

Have you ever heard of this thing where people ordering porn in hotels got fed up about their purchases being listed on the bill, so lots of hotels actually changed that? Alternatively, have you heard of that thing that's been done in lots of places where guys arrested for buying hookers had their names plastered in the local paper and then prostitution actually went down? Yeah...an actual criminal record wasn't enough to stop them. But being outed in the community as a dude who's pathetic enough to actually hire a hooker? That did it. And while we're at it, why do people wear nice looking clothes instead of walking around in pants that are riddled with moth holes and shirts that are stained with ketchup?

You gotta be pretty naive to think that most people aren't into that kind of thing. We're human, we have drives. As long as your not hurting someone else in the process, what's the harm in playing/watching sexually explicit material?

And why do people act like DoA is the only fighting game with scantly-clad women? MK, SF, SC, KoF all have at least a few sexuallized female fighters; yet you don't treat their fanbases with the same disdain do you?

#64 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

Tecmo needs a PR guy to ride herd on the director in future interviews. Talk about DOA's breasts has superceded talk about the newly released DOA5.

#65 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -
You gotta be pretty naive to think that most people aren't into that kind of thing. We're human, we have drives. As long as your not hurting someone else in the process, what's the harm in playing/watching sexually explicit material?PolygonBust
Because if someone wants sexually explicit material, they like to think that they can do a little bit better than paying $60 for what's essentially "porno for 12 year old boys". Not that I even think that DoA even is "porno for 12 year old boys" (the beach volleyball games are another matter). Going back to the comic book example, have you even seen some of the stuff that makes its way onto covers? It's ridiculous. Regardless of why you're buying it (let's assume you're buying it for the story), the people drawing the comic don't think so. The people making it clearly think you just have the mentality of a 12 year old boy who is buying comic books for the boobs, and that's a little bit offensive. Anyone who sees you reading it is gonna think the exact same thing about you, because how can they not? Regardless of if it's true, reading that stuff affects your image in a certain way, and what it's saying about you as a person is not a good thing. Again, don't pretend like image doesn't matter. Lots of people like porn, sure. But given the choice between secretly finding it online vs having to actually be seen walking into a store to buy it, what do you think people are going to choose? Yeah yeah, everyone looks at porn. But most people don't leave their porn DVDs in plain view in the living room, and they go to extra lengths to hide the weird poop-fetish stuff. And yeah, I agree that the sexuality in DoA gets exaggerated. Doesn't matter, the perception exists. The fact is that people don't bring up the "you're a pervert" argument if you start talking about Mortal Kombat or Tekken, while that sort of thing does get brought up with regards to Dead or Alive. Is that fair? No, but that doesn't change the attitudes that people have about it.
#66 Posted by Archangel3371 (15232 posts) -

I wanted to add that the amount of blanket insults being hurled at people who play this franchise is disgusting.

I fully understand that many of the base life forms that dwell on the web require a diet rich in derision and hostility to buoy their sense of worth but even by Internet standards some of the illogicality on display here is staggering.

There is nothing in DOA5 that is any more provocative than what can be observed in any number of other popular franchises, both within and outside of the genre.

And an extra shout-out to the bigots who felt the need to slander the entirety of Japanese culture based on a video game and some anime.

Very, very classy.

Grammaton-Cleric
I couldn't agree more. Some very ridiculous comments in this thread indeed and I'd also wager are likely hypocritical as well.
#67 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

I wanted to add that the amount of blanket insults being hurled at people who play this franchise is disgusting.

I fully understand that many of the base life forms that dwell on the web require a diet rich in derision and hostility to buoy their sense of worth but even by Internet standards some of the illogicality on display here is staggering.

There is nothing in DOA5 that is any more provocative than what can be observed in any number of other popular franchises, both within and outside of the genre.

And an extra shout-out to the bigots who felt the need to slander the entirety of Japanese culture based on a video game and some anime.

Very, very classy.

Grammaton-Cleric

Cool your jets a bit. You've been known to hurl a few insults yourself.

I don't like bigotry, either, so I'm no more fond of blanket criticisms of Japanese culture than you are, but there are fundamental differences that can't be ignored, either. Japanese culture is extremely sexist and ethnocentric, among other things, and it influences the media products that are developed there. I've gotten the impression that fans of games like this don't have a lot of empathy for people on the short end of human rights issues, but Japan certainly deserves a lot of criticism for its collective lack of compassion in that regard.

You may not be able to see it yourself, but images like the ones featured in this game do not represent a drooling, knuckle-dragging good time to all of us.

#68 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -
You may not be able to see it yourself, but images like the ones featured in this game do not represent a drooling, knuckle-dragging good time to all of us.capaho
Gram's been arguing that the mechanics of the game, and specifically not the imagery, is what draws fans of the series.
#69 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

Gram's been arguing that the mechanics of the game, and specifically not the imagery, is what draws fans of the series. El_Zo1212o

The mechanics are not relevant to the specific implications of the imagery.

#70 Posted by Justforvisit (5047 posts) -

http://www.gamesradar.com/dead-or-alive-director-fans-demanded-larger-breasts/

Tecmo and Team Ninja realized they crossed the line a little bit concerning the sexualization of female fighters in their Dead or Alive series. This is why they decided to reduce the amount of boobage in the upcoming DoA5, a trend already visible in the demo included with Ninja Gaiden 3... except fans revolted against the decision; game director Shimbori is quoted saying:

"We actually got a lot of feedback from people who were playing the demo, saying, 'We want bigger breasts. Make the characters more like that.' That was kind of surprising."

Reverse gears, Team Ninja and crank up the cleavage slider, becausethat's it, let's just stop pretending people play this series for the gameplay or the fighting technique: fans flat out screamed they are in for the boobs and they expect the sexiness level to increase with every iteration of the game.

Of course there will be some exceptions to this rule, but when a developer feels the need to make a U-turn based on player feedback it means an overwhelming majority of them agreed on the point.

Black_Knight_00



So Dead or Alive 6 will have a Button for Punches, one for Kicks, one for Blocking, one for Throws and a fifth one to control the breasts of the female fighters xD Jeez, those move sets will look interesting :D

#71 Posted by NaturalDisplay (548 posts) -

Wow, the amount of hate towards sexualisation in this thread is astonishing. What is wrong with a little booby-looking once in a while?

#72 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -

Wow, the amount of hate towards sexualisation in this thread is astonishing. What is wrong with a little booby-looking once in a while?

NaturalDisplay
Nothing per se, but sexualisation caters to the lowest, most basic human instincts and too much of it is an insult to your intelligence. That said, one look at your gamercard and see you will never agree with me on this point
#73 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Cool your jets a bit. You've been known to hurl a few insults yourself.

I don't like bigotry, either, so I'm no more fond of blanket criticisms of Japanese culture than you are, but there are fundamental differences that can't be ignored, either. Japanese culture is extremely sexist and ethnocentric, among other things, and it influences the media products that are developed there. I've gotten the impression that fans of games like this don't have a lot of empathy for people on the short end of human rights issues, but Japan certainly deserves a lot of criticism for its collective lack of compassion in that regard.

You may not be able to see it yourself, but images like the ones featured in this game do not represent a drooling, knuckle-dragging good time to all of us.

capaho

I don't need to cool my jets.

I'd rather just curb stomp your vapid arguments into the ground.

The criticisms you levy against Japan could rightly and logically be levied against just about any other nation on this planet.

That cute little buzzword, ethnocentric, is the defining principle of most nations and their governments and manifests in various ways, from imperialistic tendencies to smaller nations playing passive-aggressive political games or funding terrorism.

So that particular rationale is too broad and vague to be of any viable use as justification for your blatant racism.

Also, ethnocentricity has nothing to do with gender inequality.

Japan does have a pronounced history of institutionalized gender inequality but again, that is hardly a unique cultural distinction. The oppression of females in various Middle Eastern nations is not merely predicated on social norms but is often clearly mandated and enforceable. And let us not forget that Europe and the U.S. also enjoy a protracted history of inequality; American women couldn't even vote until 1920.

So again, that criticism hardly makes Japan unique.

As to the notion that people who enjoy these types of games are somehow insensitive to issues of social inequality, even by your ridiculous logic such an assertion is a stretch. I've spent years working with people on the lowest ends of the social spectrum even while pseudo-intellectuals like you thump on your chest in an effort to prove your enlightened superiority. (When you're not slandering an entire race of people that is)

Unlike you and many others in this thread, I've played the game because I'm a genre enthusiast and because DOA5 is a legitimately great game. It's also not all that provocative; certainly no worse than any number of other games on the market.

What you wrote about Japanese culture was bigoted garbage and rather than admit the fallacy of your comments or simply let the issue die you decided to step up to me and explain that not only was your ignorant slander justified but also that I'm the real bigot because I play the game.

Please keep challenging me Capho because frankly, I could bust up your pitiful arguments indefinitely.

#74 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="NaturalDisplay"]

Wow, the amount of hate towards sexualisation in this thread is astonishing. What is wrong with a little booby-looking once in a while?

Black_Knight_00

Nothing per se, but sexualisation caters to the lowest, most basic human instincts and too much of it is an insult to your intelligence. That said, one look at your gamercard and see you will never agree with me on this point

That seems like an unnecessary cheap shot coming from somebody who should know better.

The reality, as I've stated before, is that DOA5 is no worse than any number of other games. I do think the developers were foolish to cater to that particular request but in all honestly the game moves at such a blistering pace that it isn't very noticeable.

And the ladies aren't dressed any more provocatively than the women of Tekken, SF, SC, etc.

#75 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="NaturalDisplay"]

Wow, the amount of hate towards sexualisation in this thread is astonishing. What is wrong with a little booby-looking once in a while?

Grammaton-Cleric

Nothing per se, but sexualisation caters to the lowest, most basic human instincts and too much of it is an insult to your intelligence. That said, one look at your gamercard and see you will never agree with me on this point

That seems like an unnecessary cheap shot coming from somebody who should know better.

The reality, as I've stated before, is that DOA5 is no worse than any number of other games. I do think the developers were foolish to cater to that particular request but in all honestly the game moves at such a blistering pace that it isn't very noticeable.

And the ladies aren't dressed any more provocatively than the women of Tekken, SF, SC, etc.

It wasn't meant as an insult, I simply said that his gamercard implies he thinks differently, which is legitimate. Up to him now to tell me otherwise. Also, I don't limit my reasoning to DoA, it goes without saying that sex is a cheap selling point no matter the game/media in general that abuses it.
#76 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

It wasn't meant as an insult, I simply said that his gamercard implies he thinks differently, which is legitimate. Up to him now to tell me otherwise. Also, I don't limit my reasoning to DoA, it goes without saying that sex is a cheap selling point no matter the game/media in general that abuses it.

Black_Knight_00

DOA5's selling point is the fighting engine, which is vastly improved.

And personally I'm not convinced that overt sexual content is an effective business strategy as it pertains to an already somewhat niche genre. I think with the DOA Volleyball games you could make that assertion but with a dedicated fighter, not so much.

You seem to be going very far out of your way to dismiss this game based on this one interview from the developer.

Have you played the game?

Because I get the sense that most of the detractors have not.

#77 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"] Gram's been arguing that the mechanics of the game, and specifically not the imagery, is what draws fans of the series. capaho

The mechanics are not relevant to the specific implications of the imagery.

And what are the specific implications of the imagery in this game you clearly haven't played?

Please explain, in detail, what these images imply and how they contribute harmfully to the social segregation and inequality of women.

#78 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

It wasn't meant as an insult, I simply said that his gamercard implies he thinks differently, which is legitimate. Up to him now to tell me otherwise. Also, I don't limit my reasoning to DoA, it goes without saying that sex is a cheap selling point no matter the game/media in general that abuses it.

Grammaton-Cleric

DOA5's selling point is the fighting engine, which is vastly improved.

And personally I'm not convinced that overt sexual content is an effective business strategy as it pertains to an already somewhat niche genre. I think with the DOA Volleyball games you could make that assertion but with a dedicated fighter, not so much.

You seem to be going very far out of your way to dismiss this game based on this one interview from the developer.

Have you played the game?

Because I get the sense that most of the detractors have not.

I have played 1, 2 and 4, I have no interest in 5. That aside, don't get stuck on DoA, I'm making a more general statement here
#79 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"]

It wasn't meant as an insult, I simply said that his gamercard implies he thinks differently, which is legitimate. Up to him now to tell me otherwise. Also, I don't limit my reasoning to DoA, it goes without saying that sex is a cheap selling point no matter the game/media in general that abuses it.

Black_Knight_00

DOA5's selling point is the fighting engine, which is vastly improved.

And personally I'm not convinced that overt sexual content is an effective business strategy as it pertains to an already somewhat niche genre. I think with the DOA Volleyball games you could make that assertion but with a dedicated fighter, not so much.

You seem to be going very far out of your way to dismiss this game based on this one interview from the developer.

Have you played the game?

Because I get the sense that most of the detractors have not.

I have played 1, 2 and 4, I have no interest in 5. That aside, don't get stuck on DoA, I'm making a more general statement here

We don't have to focus on DOA5 at all.

By your rationale I can assume you find violence equally objectionable as it too caters to a more base and primal human fascination with the taboo of death, dismemberment, etc.

It certainly occupies no higher intellectual strata than sexuality.

Yet you don't seem at all repelled by games featuring copious violence, which could be argued as hypocritical or, at the very least, logically inconsistent.

That isn't an insult but rather an observation because you seem offended by the paltry titillations present in DOA5 yet I don't see you reeling from the overtly violent images present in many of the games you play and have subsequently ranked.

It all seems a tad...selective.

#80 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]We don't have to focus on DOA5 at all. By your rationale I can assume you find violence equally objectionable as it too caters to a more base and primal human fascination with the taboo of death, dismemberment, etc. It certainly occupies no higher intellectual strata than sexuality. Yet you don't seem at all repelled by games featuring copious violence, which could be argued as hypocritical or, at the very least, logically inconsistent. That isn't an insult but rather an observation because you seem offended by the paltry titillations present in DOA5 yet I don't see you reeling from the overtly violent images present in many of the games you play and have subsequently ranked. It all seems a tad...selective.

Actually it's a more complicate matter than that. I have spoken against gratuitous violence as well, I have also spoken in defense of it. Violence can be a catharsis feeding the natural instinct of domination or it can be something sick and completely distasteful. The keyword here is "context": there are games where violence is complementary and cathartic, while in others it's an end in itself. The line is much less blurry when it comes to sex: you can represent a woman as a person (say, Lightning from FFXIII or the new Lara Croft) or you can represent her as a walking excuse for huge bouncing boobs (Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, even Heavy Rain). You can make her act like a person or you can give her a constantly alluring and flirtatious personality. You ask if this offends me. It does, but not the way you may think: I could care less about the sexual content per se. What bothers me is what's behind it: this undying bilateral gender stereotype which wants women to be either buxom sluts or preteen schoolgirls in skimpy outfits and male gamers to perceive this as added value to a game. I feel like they expect us to increase our interest in the game on account of the sexual content and this is an insult to our intelligence. Then there's the feminine point of view: we have plenty of fantastic male protagonists, but you don't need two hands to count female leads who actually look and act like people and not something out of a japanese softcore magazine. In other words: we are not horny teens and we don't need cheap sexual stimulation from our videogames. What we need are female characters we can actually look at and respect for a change.
#81 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"] Gram's been arguing that the mechanics of the game, and specifically not the imagery, is what draws fans of the series. capaho

The mechanics are not relevant to the specific implications of the imagery.

And the imagery is not relevant to having a good time with the game.
#82 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]We don't have to focus on DOA5 at all. By your rationale I can assume you find violence equally objectionable as it too caters to a more base and primal human fascination with the taboo of death, dismemberment, etc. It certainly occupies no higher intellectual strata than sexuality. Yet you don't seem at all repelled by games featuring copious violence, which could be argued as hypocritical or, at the very least, logically inconsistent. That isn't an insult but rather an observation because you seem offended by the paltry titillations present in DOA5 yet I don't see you reeling from the overtly violent images present in many of the games you play and have subsequently ranked. It all seems a tad...selective.Black_Knight_00
Actually it's a more complicate matter than that. I have spoken against gratuitous violence as well, I have also spoken in defense of it. Violence can be a catharsis feeding the natural instinct of domination or it can be something sick and completely distasteful. The keyword here is "context": there are games where violence is complementary and cathartic, while in others it's an end in itself. The line is much less blurry when it comes to sex: you can represent a woman as a person (say, Lightning from FFXIII or the new Lara Croft) or you can represent her as a walking excuse for huge bouncing boobs (Dead or Alive, Soul Calibur, Ninja Gaiden, Bayonetta, even Heavy Rain). You can make her act like a person or you can give her a constantly alluring and flirtatious personality. You ask if this offends me. It does, but not the way you may think: I could care less about the sexual content per se. What bothers me is what's behind it: this undying bilateral gender stereotype which wants women to be either buxom sluts or preteen schoolgirls in skimpy outfits and male gamers to perceive this as added value to a game. I feel like they expect us to increase our interest in the game on account of the sexual content and this is an insult to our intelligence. Then there's the feminine point of view: we have plenty of fantastic male protagonists, but you don't need two hands to count female leads who actually look and act like people and not something out of a japanese softcore magazine. In other words: we are not horny teens and we don't need cheap sexual stimulation from our videogames. What we need are female characters we can actually look at and respect for a change.

You've done a solid job of delineating your position but when it comes to context I would assert taking umbrage at something like DOA seems odd given the nature of the genre. Like SC, Tekken, or SF these games feature hyper-idealized characters fighting at impossible velocities and performing acts of inhuman physicality; they are essentially superheroes and have the physiques to match. (Both the men and the women)

By contrast DOA Volleyball seems a bit more exploitive and therefore offensive, as would garbage like that ill-conceived BMX-XXX from last generation.

As to the bilateral gender stereotypes you mention, I think we generally see a far greater spectrum of female characters within this medium than buxom sluts or preteen schoolgirls. The characters in DOA have always been heavily influenced by an anime aesthetic thus some exaggerated proportions hardly seem unreasonable, though again I would stress that the ladies of DOA5 are hardly some sort of soft-porn fantasy set to a fighting game.

Regarding the feminine POV, I think that stems not from stereotypes or gender role expectations but rather from the relative newness of this medium. You mention strong male leads but as someone heavily steeped in literature and film I'd actually state that few of the male characters in games are anything more than recycled tropes and two-dimensional heroic archetypes mostly borrowed from superior literary and filmic sources.

Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play.

Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.

#83 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.

Glad we agree on that, and I take it a step further: the industry should try to teach those gamers who still don't have this sort of intellectual "high standard" to have more self respect and refuse to be objectified and herded towards the "blood and boobs" pen. The way to do this is to reverse the trend and create more dignified female characters. I don't expect japan to do this anytime soon, so it falls western developers to move in this direction. On a side note, yes, most male leads in today's gaming are still macho stereotypes. We still have a long way to go, though as far as female leads are concerned we still have a massive way to go, unfortunately.
#84 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.

Glad we agree on that, and I take it a step further: the industry should try to teach those gamers who still don't have this sort of intellectual "high standard" to have more self respect and refuse to be objectified and herded towards the "blood and boobs" pen. The way to do this is to reverse the trend and create more dignified female characters. I don't expect japan to do this anytime soon, so it falls western developers to move in this direction. On a side note, yes, most male leads in today's gaming are still macho stereotypes. We still have a long way to go, though as far as female leads are concerned we still have a massive way to go, unfortunately.

I don't think that extra step is entirely necessary- I like a game with something to say, sure, games like Red Faction: Guerilla and Spec Ops: The Line that question the morality of crusading for a good cause are all well and good, but occasionally I like to play a game with no point because I like the way it plays- games like Mercs 2, Just Cause 2 and Batman: Arkham City- and I don't think it is anyone's right to make me feel like my gameplay choices are deficient because of it.
#85 Posted by SharkheadHD (231 posts) -
Isn't there already a whole subgenre of sexually suggestive fighting games? I think I remember the name of one... "Rose" something?
#86 Posted by MrGeezer (56015 posts) -
Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.Grammaton-Cleric
I know you weren't replying to me, but I pretty much feel the same way. The thing is, I don't think I would mind if this kind of stuff wasn't so rampant throughout so many games. I mean...sure I can appreciate some exploitative cheese sometimes. Every once in a while, it's kind of nice to indulge in that kind of thing. But when it's so freaking common, it becomes pretty annoying. It's like as was pointed out, the stuff in Dead or Alive for the most part isn't much worse than what one will find in any other fighter like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Yes, I agree. And I actually think that's part of what bugs me so much. It's not the sort of thing only seen in a few franchises, it's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And I think that's a problem. And I also think it goes beyond sexual imagery. Sure that's part of the problem. But over-the-top gore/bloodlust is also an issue, as are ridiculously simple storylines. I think they all fit within the bigger picture as the problem just being a serious lack of maturity that's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And again, not EVERY game needs to be smart or mature or intelligent. Yes, there's a place for dumb and exploitative schlock. And yes, there are exceptions. Probably more exceptions now than there've ever been before. But still, by and large, a hell of a lot of this industry just seems catered to children. Either in terms of kids' fantasies (violence/sex) or their ability to appreciate a mature story. And overall I think it's time for there to be a shift away from that. Lots of gamers have grown up, and I think that more of the industry should grow up as well.
#87 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -
Isn't there already a whole subgenre of sexually suggestive fighting games? I think I remember the name of one... "Rose" something?SharkheadHD
Rumble Roses? That old wrestling game?
[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.MrGeezer
I know you weren't replying to me, but I pretty much feel the same way. The thing is, I don't think I would mind if this kind of stuff wasn't so rampant throughout so many games. I mean...sure I can appreciate some exploitative cheese sometimes. Every once in a while, it's kind of nice to indulge in that kind of thing. But when it's so freaking common, it becomes pretty annoying. It's like as was pointed out, the stuff in Dead or Alive for the most part isn't much worse than what one will find in any other fighter like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Yes, I agree. And I actually think that's part of what bugs me so much. It's not the sort of thing only seen in a few franchises, it's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And I think that's a problem. And I also think it goes beyond sexual imagery. Sure that's part of the problem. But over-the-top gore/bloodlust is also an issue, as are ridiculously simple storylines. I think they all fit within the bigger picture as the problem just being a serious lack of maturity that's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And again, not EVERY game needs to be smart or mature or intelligent. Yes, there's a place for dumb and exploitative schlock. And yes, there are exceptions. Probably more exceptions now than there've ever been before. But still, by and large, a hell of a lot of this industry just seems catered to children. Either in terms of kids' fantasies (violence/sex) or their ability to appreciate a mature story. And overall I think it's time for there to be a shift away from that. Lots of gamers have grown up, and I think that more of the industry should grow up as well.

Funny thing, one of my favorite recent games(WH40K: Space Marine) was focussed almost entirely on gore/bloodlust(gruesomely executing enemies recovered health) and a simple storyline(the Orks are invading, hold them off and secure vital assets), but it featured a strong female supporting character, Lieutenant Mira, who single handedly held her regiment together while under siege and vastly outnumbered for days before backup could arrive. Her proportions weren't exaggerated in any way and her body armor was fully functional and not ridiculously revealing in any way. Compared to Dead or Alive- which has no gore(in the 3DS version, anyway), a nonsensical story(as in I really, honestly can make no sense of the story), and 11 out of the 26 character roster are female, only one or two of which have realistic proportions, and all of which have at least one costume that reveals either cleavage, underwear, or(usually) both- which of the two games do you(or anyone else who cares to respond) find more distasteful?
#88 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

And what are the specific implications of the imagery in this game you clearly haven't played?

Please explain, in detail, what these images imply and how they contribute harmfully to the social segregation and inequality of women.

Grammaton-Cleric

As an article in a recent Atlantic Monthly pointed out,such images objectify women. They are designed to appeal to males who look at womenthe same way they look at houses and sandwiches, as composites of attractive parts. When you objectify women, or dehumanize a class of people with degrading characatures, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread, you relate to them as physical objects to be used or ridiculed. You lose sight of their humanity. If you can't grasp that conception then you will probably never get it.

#89 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.Black_Knight_00
Glad we agree on that, and I take it a step further: the industry should try to teach those gamers who still don't have this sort of intellectual "high standard" to have more self respect and refuse to be objectified and herded towards the "blood and boobs" pen. The way to do this is to reverse the trend and create more dignified female characters. I don't expect japan to do this anytime soon, so it falls western developers to move in this direction. On a side note, yes, most male leads in today's gaming are still macho stereotypes. We still have a long way to go, though as far as female leads are concerned we still have a massive way to go, unfortunately.

*Scratches beard* Black Knight, wasn't FF13's Lightning one of the two good female characters you cited a page back? What happened inbetween that post and this one? Japanese developers are as apt to create good female characters as Western designers and more inclined to place female characters in the lead.

#90 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.MrGeezer
I know you weren't replying to me, but I pretty much feel the same way. The thing is, I don't think I would mind if this kind of stuff wasn't so rampant throughout so many games. I mean...sure I can appreciate some exploitative cheese sometimes. Every once in a while, it's kind of nice to indulge in that kind of thing. But when it's so freaking common, it becomes pretty annoying. It's like as was pointed out, the stuff in Dead or Alive for the most part isn't much worse than what one will find in any other fighter like Street Fighter or Mortal Kombat. Yes, I agree. And I actually think that's part of what bugs me so much. It's not the sort of thing only seen in a few franchises, it's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And I think that's a problem. And I also think it goes beyond sexual imagery. Sure that's part of the problem. But over-the-top gore/bloodlust is also an issue, as are ridiculously simple storylines. I think they all fit within the bigger picture as the problem just being a serious lack of maturity that's pervasive across large segments of the industry. And again, not EVERY game needs to be smart or mature or intelligent. Yes, there's a place for dumb and exploitative schlock. And yes, there are exceptions. Probably more exceptions now than there've ever been before. But still, by and large, a hell of a lot of this industry just seems catered to children. Either in terms of kids' fantasies (violence/sex) or their ability to appreciate a mature story. And overall I think it's time for there to be a shift away from that. Lots of gamers have grown up, and I think that more of the industry should grow up as well.

In videogames for the overwhelming majority of players, the action is the gameplay. Making a game about people dealing with each other in a non-action or mostly non-action context, you have to limit freedom (the range of conversation options is inevitably finite) a lot of people will accuse you of not focusing on gameplay.

Also, it doesn't make sense to conflate action with bloodlust. Blood is merely an exclamation point in most action games. Most action games are no more about blood than GTA games are about murder. It inevitably happens during the course of the game, but its not really the point of the game. That is something non-gamers watching footage of a game might miss, but its a point gamers should grasp.

The problem isn't that the industry caters to children, its that there isn't much of a market for the sorts of complexity you envision (the Wii drew a lot of older gamers by offering extremely simple games so it makes no sense to me to blame the young).

#91 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

And what are the specific implications of the imagery in this game you clearly haven't played?

Please explain, in detail, what these images imply and how they contribute harmfully to the social segregation and inequality of women.

capaho

As an article in a recent Atlantic Monthly pointed out,such images objectify women. They are designed to appeal to males who look at womenthe same way they look at houses and sandwiches, as composites of attractive parts. When you objectify women, or dehumanize a class of people with degrading characatures, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread, you relate to them as physical objects to be used or ridiculed. You lose sight of their humanity. If you can't grasp that conception then you will probably never get it.

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?
#92 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6001 posts) -
(By the way, hurrah for this thread- it's gone from a hate thread to a remarkably deep discussion and is currently the thread I'm most actively watching on Fuse.)
#93 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Regardless, the ultimate thrust of your position is appreciated because what you are advocating is that developers not assume their target demographic is comprised entirely of horny young men easily distracted by gratuitous sex and violence. You want to be treated intelligently and you desire that cerebral component in what you play. Such an ideology is certainly something I can get behind.CarnageHeart

Glad we agree on that, and I take it a step further: the industry should try to teach those gamers who still don't have this sort of intellectual "high standard" to have more self respect and refuse to be objectified and herded towards the "blood and boobs" pen. The way to do this is to reverse the trend and create more dignified female characters. I don't expect japan to do this anytime soon, so it falls western developers to move in this direction. On a side note, yes, most male leads in today's gaming are still macho stereotypes. We still have a long way to go, though as far as female leads are concerned we still have a massive way to go, unfortunately.

*Scratches beard* Black Knight, wasn't FF13's Lightning one of the two good female characters you cited a page back? What happened inbetween that post and this one? Japanese developers are as apt to create good female characters as Western designers and more inclined to place female characters in the lead.

Touché... but it does make sense: imagine my amazement when I saw characters like Lightning and Fang, I thought "YES! Japan finally stopped treating women like sex toys!" But no... it was just one game :(
#94 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -
[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Glad we agree on that, and I take it a step further: the industry should try to teach those gamers who still don't have this sort of intellectual "high standard" to have more self respect and refuse to be objectified and herded towards the "blood and boobs" pen. The way to do this is to reverse the trend and create more dignified female characters. I don't expect japan to do this anytime soon, so it falls western developers to move in this direction. On a side note, yes, most male leads in today's gaming are still macho stereotypes. We still have a long way to go, though as far as female leads are concerned we still have a massive way to go, unfortunately.Black_Knight_00

*Scratches beard* Black Knight, wasn't FF13's Lightning one of the two good female characters you cited a page back? What happened inbetween that post and this one? Japanese developers are as apt to create good female characters as Western designers and more inclined to place female characters in the lead.

Touché... but it does make sense: imagine my amazement when I saw characters like Lightning and Fang, I thought "YES! Japan finally stopped treating women like sex toys!" But no... it was just one game :(

There were strong female characters in Japanese games long before FF13 (nods towards Phantasy Star's Alys, Metal Gear Solid 3's Boss and Alisia Dragoon).
#95 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -
[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

*Scratches beard* Black Knight, wasn't FF13's Lightning one of the two good female characters you cited a page back? What happened inbetween that post and this one? Japanese developers are as apt to create good female characters as Western designers and more inclined to place female characters in the lead.

CarnageHeart
Touché... but it does make sense: imagine my amazement when I saw characters like Lightning and Fang, I thought "YES! Japan finally stopped treating women like sex toys!" But no... it was just one game :(

There were strong female characters in Japanese games long before FF13 (nods towards Phantasy Star's Alys, Metal Gear Solid 3's Boss and Alisia Dragoon).

Ok, but Mentioning MGS is a cheap shot: MGS is a stratosphere above anything else coming from japan. Besides, exceptions don't kill the rule, I'm afraid
#96 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"][QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Touché... but it does make sense: imagine my amazement when I saw characters like Lightning and Fang, I thought "YES! Japan finally stopped treating women like sex toys!" But no... it was just one game :(Black_Knight_00
There were strong female characters in Japanese games long before FF13 (nods towards Phantasy Star's Alys, Metal Gear Solid 3's Boss and Alisia Dragoon).

Ok, but Mentioning MGS is a cheap shot: MGS is a stratosphere above anything else coming from japan. Besides, exceptions don't kill the rule, I'm afraid

So you make an inaccurate declaration and ignore all evidence to the contrary because 'exceptions don't invalidate the rule'? Fair enough.

The truth is that female characters in Japanese games have just as much of a chance of boasting depth as female characters from any other region.

#97 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18157 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="CarnageHeart"] There were strong female characters in Japanese games long before FF13 (nods towards Phantasy Star's Alys, Metal Gear Solid 3's Boss and Alisia Dragoon).CarnageHeart

Ok, but Mentioning MGS is a cheap shot: MGS is a stratosphere above anything else coming from japan. Besides, exceptions don't kill the rule, I'm afraid

So you make an inaccurate declaration and ignore all evidence to the contrary because 'exceptions don't invalidate the rule'? Fair enough.

The truth is that female characters in Japanese games have just as much of a chance of boasting depth as female characters from any other region.

I don't ignore it, I acknowledge it for what it is: an exception to a valid rule. And no, I doubt Japan will lead the vanguard when the female representation trend finally changes. Their society has little respect for women in reality, let alone in fiction.
#98 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?

El_Zo1212o

My assertion is false? I was referring to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, it wasn't my assertion.

The images are intended to cash in on people who objectify women.

So many clueless, so little time.

#99 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

And what are the specific implications of the imagery in this game you clearly haven't played?

Please explain, in detail, what these images imply and how they contribute harmfully to the social segregation and inequality of women.

capaho

As an article in a recent Atlantic Monthly pointed out,such images objectify women. They are designed to appeal to males who look at womenthe same way they look at houses and sandwiches, as composites of attractive parts. When you objectify women, or dehumanize a class of people with degrading characatures, as has been noted elsewhere in this thread, you relate to them as physical objects to be used or ridiculed. You lose sight of their humanity. If you can't grasp that conception then you will probably never get it.

More veiled insults. I'd be offended was I not so utterly amused at the delicious irony of your ignorant comments.

I've given lectures on the Holocaust, taught low-income and socially-marginalized youth The Diary of Anne Frank and fought to relate the teachings of Dr. King to kids whose own parents are selling drugs out of their homes.

I do not require a lecture from you on social responsibility and the importance of gender equity.

And again, your explanation regarding the matter is vague. What images are we referring to? Because in most media females are depicted as attractive and often wear provocative outfits.

The ladies of DOA are portrayed in a manner not dissimilar from how the women in most Bond films are presented. Or in action films, fantasy adventures and dramas.

Your argument (or the argument you've regurgitated) assumes that the very presence of sex appeal in media automatically makes it something that dehumanizes and marginalizes females by default and if that is the case are we asserting that the female form be entirely obfuscated so that cannot happen?

And what about a game like Dues Ex, which you scored a perfect 10? That games allows you, a male protagonist, you walk up to a random woman on the street and knock her out with a brutal punch. Isn't the inclusion of this option inherently misogynistic? Doesn't it advocate and endorse violence against women by making such an option available? And why is it that somebody as supposedly enlightened as you consider such a game acceptable?

The problem is that you traffic in generalities, which operate in the absence of logic. To make blanket statements about all media or to dismiss an entire race over certain aspects of their popular culture is puerile. For all of your intellectual bravado you submit the most vapid and unsubstantial arguments; arguments so stale they crumble to dust when you latch on to them.

And I notice you once again opted to dodge the larger issue which was your inherently intolerant comments regarding Japanese culture. I'm very disappointed given that you were clearly looking for a fight on that issue and I remain very interested in how you intend to spin such blatantly racist comments.

#100 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?

capaho

My assertion is false? I was referring to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, it wasn't my assertion.

The images are intended to cash in on people who objectify women.

So many clueless, so little time.

Why would you cite an article you don't agree with?

Clearly you agreed with it as you cited it as reinforcement for your assertions.

And again with the insults.

Keep dancing and keep swinging because frankly, I love tearing apart the garbage you write.