'Dead or Alive fans demanded larger breasts' says DoA5 director

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#101 Posted by CarnageHeart (18316 posts) -

[QUOTE="CarnageHeart"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] Ok, but Mentioning MGS is a cheap shot: MGS is a stratosphere above anything else coming from japan. Besides, exceptions don't kill the rule, I'm afraidBlack_Knight_00

So you make an inaccurate declaration and ignore all evidence to the contrary because 'exceptions don't invalidate the rule'? Fair enough.

The truth is that female characters in Japanese games have just as much of a chance of boasting depth as female characters from any other region.

I don't ignore it, I acknowledge it for what it is: an exception to a valid rule. And no, I doubt Japan will lead the vanguard when the female representation trend finally changes. Their society has little respect for women in reality, let alone in fiction.

*Shrugs* Never been to Japan, never studied it, no plans to, so I defer to your claimed expertise on the subject of Japanese culture, but in terms of gaming Japanese developers are no better or worse than non-Japanese developers in terms of depictions of women.

#102 Posted by Overlord93 (12602 posts) -
DoA has never been serious. And it's over sexualisation has always been a part of it's image. If that's what people want then give it to them.
#103 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
Y'know, Gram, without being patronizing, I've always read your posts in Mr. Spock's voice. But whenever you reply to Capaho(cap a ho? Unless there's a deeper meaning here, it sounds like his own user name is contrary to his alleged opinion...) It always sounds to me like Mr. Spock's prepping for a street fight.
#104 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Y'know, Gram, without being patronizing, I've always read your posts in Mr. Spock's voice. But whenever you reply to Capaho(cap a ho? Unless there's a deeper meaning here, it sounds like his own user name is contrary to his alleged opinion...) It always sounds to me like Mr. Spock's prepping for a street fight.El_Zo1212o

The irony is that I'm actually a very creative and abstract-minded person. However, what I've learned is that the Internet is often so bereft of logic that introducing it into a debate stymies if not downright slaughters the opposition.

Rhetoric and argumentation are becoming a lost art, especially with people who fling around logical fallacies like blunt instruments.

By the way, that earlier point you made about images and pictures not being inherently exploitive and rather being used as such by people was quite brilliant from an argument standpoint.

You essentially placed him into check and then he proceeded to make it a checkmate with that ridiculous rebuttal.

#105 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

By the way, that earlier point you made about images and pictures not being inherently exploitive and rather being used as such by people was quite brilliant from an argument standpoint.

You essentially placed him into check and then he proceeded to make it a checkmate with that ridiculous rebuttal.

Grammaton-Cleric
That means something, coming from you, thanks. But considering he played it the same way he played his arguments in the Sleeping Dogs thread, I don't think it was much of a coup.
#106 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

By the way, that earlier point you made about images and pictures not being inherently exploitive and rather being used as such by people was quite brilliant from an argument standpoint.

You essentially placed him into check and then he proceeded to make it a checkmate with that ridiculous rebuttal.

El_Zo1212o

That means something, coming from you, thanks. But considering he played it the same way he played his arguments in the Sleeping Dogs thread, I don't think it was much of a coup.

Hey, a good argument is a good argument.

That Sleeping Dogs discussion was bizarre. It contained the most back peddling I've ever seen in a single thread.

I actually tried to extend an olive branch in there but he came out swinging in this thread so I did what comes natural.

The great thing about this one particular board is that it does a good job of ferreting out those who don't want to keep things on a higher plane of discussion. The newer additions often swagger in here thinking this place is Neogaf or some other typical forum and they end up getting a lesson in argumentation and support from the regulars.

This place really is an oasis, especially when you consider the subject matter.

#107 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
The newer additions often swagger in here thinking this place is Neogaf or some other typical forum and they end up getting a lesson in argumentation and support from the regulars.

This place really is an oasis, especially when you consider the subject matter.

Grammaton-Cleric
I wouldn't really know about that- this is the only wide-gaming forum I've ever been involved with. I spent time on the Valve boards between L4D and L4D2, and on the Ubisoft AC forum before and after Brotherhood, and the conversation there was usually pretty level headed. If most other general gaming forums are less than this, then I'm pretty glad I'm a Gamespot man(though I generally try to stay the hell out of that cesspit of hate and bias commonly referred to as System Wars).
#108 Posted by Pixel-Perfect (5778 posts) -

lol wow.

#109 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

More veiled insults. I'd be offended was I not so utterly amused at the delicious irony of your ignorant comments.

I've given lectures on the Holocaust, taught low-income and socially-marginalized youth The Diary of Anne Frank and fought to relate the teachings of Dr. King to kids whose own parents are selling drugs out of their homes.

I do not require a lecture from you on social responsibility and the importance of gender equity.

And again, your explanation regarding the matter is vague. What images are we referring to? Because in most media females are depicted as attractive and often wear provocative outfits.

The ladies of DOA are portrayed in a manner not dissimilar from how the women in most Bond films are presented. Or in action films, fantasy adventures and dramas.

Your argument (or the argument you've regurgitated) assumes that the very presence of sex appeal in media automatically makes it something that dehumanizes and marginalizes females by default and if that is the case are we asserting that the female form be entirely obfuscated so that cannot happen?

And what about a game like Dues Ex, which you scored a perfect 10? That games allows you, a male protagonist, you walk up to a random woman on the street and knock her out with a brutal punch. Isn't the inclusion of this option inherently misogynistic? Doesn't it advocate and endorse violence against women by making such an option available? And why is it that somebody as supposedly enlightened as you consider such a game acceptable?

The problem is that you traffic in generalities, which operate in the absence of logic. To make blanket statements about all media or to dismiss an entire race over certain aspects of their popular culture is puerile. For all of your intellectual bravado you submit the most vapid and unsubstantial arguments; arguments so stale they crumble to dust when you latch on to them.

And I notice you once again opted to dodge the larger issue which was your inherently intolerant comments regarding Japanese culture. I'm very disappointed given that you were clearly looking for a fight on that issue and I remain very interested in how you intend to spin such blatantly racist comments.

Grammaton-Cleric

Veiled insults? I just don't see it. My comments are never intended to insult or offend, mearly to provoke thought. You always seem to be so threatened by mere disagreement such that you are determined to prevail in a discussion by plowing through with sheer persistence rather than reason.

I can't comment on your lecture circuit because I've never heard you speak. If you genuinely do feel empathy and compassion for those who are suffering as a result of oppression or intolerance, it doesn't come through in your comments here. I respond only to what you have posted in these forums, and your comments frequently do not reflect an accurate understanding of the comments of those to whom you are replying. You have an unfortunate tendency to deride people who don't see things your way.

Which brings me back, once again, to the point of my game ratings. They are subjective based on my own experiences playing them. How many times have I said that? I am not so arrogant as to believe that anything I write is the definitive word on anything. As for Dues Ex, I gave it a 10 because it had an interesting, well-developed story that had depth. It was an intelligent game that required planning and strategy to do well. It was far more than a typical mindless shooter or annoying button-mashing extravaganza (although it did have some of that), but I digress.

As for the rest, all I can say is that you seem to be prone to making snap judgements or erroneous assumptions about the personal characteristics of the people with whom you disagree (or, from your perspective, who disagree with you).

#110 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

I don't ignore it, I acknowledge it for what it is: an exception to a valid rule. And no, I doubt Japan will lead the vanguard when the female representation trend finally changes. Their society has little respect for women in reality, let alone in fiction.Black_Knight_00

Sad but true. Women in Japan continue to be locked into roles that are subsurvient to men for the most part. Not only is Japan not leading the vanguard, it is decades behind the rest of the developed world in its attitudes toward women and others. Discrimination and prejudice are subtle but pervasive and deeply entrenched in Japanese culture.

#111 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
Veiled insults? I just don't see it.capaho
If you can't grasp that conception then you will probably never get it.capaho
So many clueless, so little time.capaho
I hope this helps.
#112 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"] If you can't grasp that concept then you will probably never get it.El_Zo1212o
So many clueless, so little time.capaho
I hope this helps.

As I said, my comments are never intended to insult or offend, merely to provoke thought. Anyone who is insulted or offended by anything I write needs to look inward to find the source of those feelings.

#113 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"][QUOTE="capaho"] [QUOTE="capaho"]So many clueless, so little time.capaho

I hope this helps.

As I said, my comments are never intended to insult or offend, merely to provoke thought. Anyone who is insulted or offended by anything I write needs to look inward to find the source of those feelings.

Funny, I just happened to look inward, and found the source of that feeling to be where you called me clueless.
#114 Posted by lensflare15 (6181 posts) -

Maybe they just want it to remain "true" to the series? I know many people get upset when something that's usually common in a series isn't included.

#115 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

Funny, I just happened to look inward, and found the source of that feeling to be where you called me clueless.

El_Zo1212o

Sigh! That comment was not directed at any specific individual and it was a play on a common expression that was apropos humor for a discussion about the objectification of women. A little understanding goes a long away in mitigating conflict.

#116 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Veiled insults? I just don't see it. My comments are never intended to insult or offend, mearly to provoke thought. You always seem to be so threatened by mere disagreement such that you are determined to prevail in a discussion by plowing through with sheer persistence rather than reason.

I can't comment on your lecture circuit because I've never heard you speak. If you genuinely do feel empathy and compassion for those who are suffering as a result of oppression or intolerance, it doesn't come through in your comments here. I respond only to what you have posted in these forums, and your comments frequently do not reflect an accurate understanding of the comments of those to whom you are replying. You have an unfortunate tendency to deride people who don't see things your way.

Which brings me back, once again, to the point of my game ratings. They are subjective based on my own experiences playing them. How many times have I said that? I am not so arrogant as to believe that anything I write is the definitive word on anything. As for Dues Ex, I gave it a 10 because it had an interesting, well-developed story that had depth. It was an intelligent game that required planning and strategy to do well. It was far more than a typical mindless shooter or annoying button-mashing extravaganza (although it did have some of that), but I digress.

As for the rest, all I can say is that you seem to be prone to making snap judgements or erroneous assumptions about the personal characteristics of the people with whom you disagree (or, from your perspective, who disagree with you).

capaho

Again, don't waste my time pretending that your infantile passive-aggressive tactics aren't present in just about everything you write because the only thing that supersedes the hostility of your ambling prose is the transparency of the nonsense you layer within your dull musings.

And you don't threaten me Capaho; you amuse me.

There is no lecture circuit because I currently teach youths, not adults. Also, I don't see you as the lecture circuit type but rather the guy who spoke to someone who attended a lecture circuit once and then cites that as evidence of his position. (With said citation being inaccurate)

As to my lack of empathy and compassion, I save such emotional responses for appropriate subjects, not ridiculous discussions on anime-inspired fighters that have absolutely no effect on the broader issues of gender roles and societal female oppression.

I also enjoy the twisted irony of your admonishment given your clearly racist predilections towards the Japanese as evidenced in the garbage you posted earlier. Being lectured by somebody of your mentality is borderline hysterical were it not so fundamentally disturbing.

Also, your rebuttal as it pertain to the subjective nature of your personal game ratings is entirely incidental. My point was that you rated Dues Ex very highly despite the content of the game allowing you as the protagonist to be overtly violent towards women, which is easily as offensive as anything found in DOA5.

I would also remind you that the entire crux of your inane Sleeping Dogs post was that your critique was the definitive word on the broken nature of the melee fighting so yes, you are arrogant and you do seek to foist your decidedly uninformed opinions on others.

Your closing statement is of course the most ironic of all, as you accuse me of making snap judgments when in fact it was your mouthy and ignorant assessment of my character that led us to this place.

And let us not forget that you still haven't addressed your bigotry as defined in your earlier comments.

Like I've said, busting your arguments up is no great effort because you literally give me every bit of ammunition necessary to perforate your logic.

El Zo made a nice little addendum to my post that illustrates your blathering hypocrisy.

So keep it coming.

#117 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

Funny, I just happened to look inward, and found the source of that feeling to be where you called me clueless.

capaho

Sigh! That comment was not directed at any specific individual and it was a play on a common expression that was apropos humor for a discussion about the objectification of women. A little understanding goes a long away in mitigating conflict.

Well, that comment which prompted you to respond was not directed at anyone specifically but rather suggested that crass generalizations about Japanese culture were entirely unnecessary yet you saw fit to take that personally, didn't you?

"Cool your jets." was the preface of your renuttal if I recall.

#118 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

Again, don't waste my time pretending that your infantile passive-aggressive tactics aren't present in just about everything you write because the only thing that supersedes the hostility of your ambling prose is the transparency of the nonsense you layer within your dull musings.

And you don't threaten me Capaho; you amuse me.

There is no lecture circuit because I currently teach youths, not adults. Also, I don't see you as the lecture circuit type but rather the guy who spoke to someone who attended a lecture circuit once and then cites that as evidence of his position. (With said citation being inaccurate)

As to my lack of empathy and compassion, I save such emotional responses for appropriate subjects, not ridiculous discussions on anime-inspired fighters that have absolutely no effect on the broader issues of gender roles and societal female oppression.

I also enjoy the twisted irony of your admonishment given your clearly racist predilections towards the Japanese as evidenced in the garbage you posted earlier. Being lectured by somebody of your mentality is borderline hysterical were it not so fundamentally disturbing.

Also, your rebuttal as it pertain to the subjective nature of your personal game ratings is entirely incidental. My point was that you rated Dues Ex very highly despite the content of the game allowing you as the protagonist to be overtly violent towards women, which is easily as offensive as anything found in DOA5.

I would also remind you that the entire crux of your inane Sleeping Dogs post was that your critique was the definitive word on the broken nature of the melee fighting so yes, you are arrogant and you do seek to foist your decidedly uninformed opinions on others.

Your closing statement is of course the most ironic of all, as you accuse me of making snap judgments when in fact it was your mouthy and ignorant assessment of my character that led us to this place.

And let us not forget that you still haven't addressed your bigotry as defined in your earlier comments.

Like I've said, busting your arguments up is no great effort because you literally give me every bit of ammunition necessary to perforate your logic.

El Zo made a nice little addendum to my post that illustrates your blathering hypocrisy.

So keep it coming.

Grammaton-Cleric

Well, at least that reply exemplifies the fundamental problem in trying to have a discussion with you better than anything I could write in response. You always seem to be responding to your own personal issues rather than what was actually said to you.

#119 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
Sigh! That comment was not directed at any specific individual and it was a play on a common expression that was apropos humor for a discussion about the objectification of women. A little understanding goes a long away in mitigating conflict.capaho
Two things here... First, you're implying that I lack the understanding necessary to discern your meaning(even as you're clearly attempting to revise what you meant in the first place). That's condescending, at least, and could be downright insulting, if someone were of a mind to take offense. Second, you were replying to a comment of mine. At the end of your reply, you bemoaned (you claim) general cluelessness. On one hand, you could honestly be despairing the cluelessness of several people in this thread. On the other hand you could be backpedaling to cover over what actually was you calling me specifically clueless. In one case, you're insulting several people in the thread(tactlessness can be terribly insulting, you know(and I know a thing or two about tact. Talk to Omega Prime- he'll tell you all about it)). In the other case, you're just insulting the one person. "Clueless" is an insult. If you insult someone and laugh, that's also condescending. And just for reference:

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?

capaho

My assertion is false? I was referring to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, it wasn't my assertion.

The images are intended to cash in on people who objectify women.

So many clueless, so little time.

#120 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Well, at least that reply exemplifies the fundamental problem in trying to have a discussion with you better than anything I could write in response. You always seem to be responding to your own personal issues rather than what was actually said to you.

capaho

Wow, that was profound.

Of course you ignore the many SPECIFIC issues I take with your consistent nonsense, which has been your modus operandi since the very beginning.

Your community college psycho babble is adorable however; I'm responding to my own personal issues?

Actually, I am responding directly to your comments; it's called a rebuttal and the crux of the concept eludes you.

Also, you seem to forget that you responded to me. It wasn't more than two weeks ago that I specifically reached out to you and tried to make peace and invite you to indulge in more level-headed discussion. Then you clopped into this thread, made some passive-aggressive remarks, and assume your prose is so clever that you can deny all culpability as to what you have written.

You wanted a fight just like you wanted it when you made that Sleeping Dogs thread. The problem is you are an intellectual glass jaw, unable to roll with the punches as they batter your arguments.

#121 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"] Two things here... First, you're implying that I lack the understanding necessary to discern your meaning(even as you're clearly attempting to revise what you meant in the first place). That's condescending, at least, and could be downright insulting, if someone were of a mind to take offense. Second, you were replying to a comment of mine. At the end of your reply, you bemoaned (you claim) general cluelessness. On one hand, you could honestly be despairing the cluelessness of several people in this thread. On the other hand you could be backpedaling to cover over what actually was you calling me specifically clueless. In one case, you're insulting several people in the thread(tactlessness can be terribly insulting, you know(and I know a thing or two about tact. Talk to Omega Prime- he'll tell you all about it)). In the other case, you're just insulting the one person. "Clueless" is an insult. If you insult someone and laugh, that's also condescending. And just for reference: [QUOTE="capaho"]

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?

El_Zo1212o

My assertion is false? I was referring to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, it wasn't my assertion.

The images are intended to cash in on people who objectify women.

So many clueless, so little time.

Checkmate.

Again.

#122 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"]

Blah! Blah! Blah!

[QUOTE="capaho"]

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

El_Zo1212o

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

You have an unfortuante tendency to embellish my comments. You either misunderstand, over-interpret or read too much into them.

#123 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
The problem is you are an intellectual glass jaw...Grammaton-Cleric
:D I want to buy the rights to that statement.
#124 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -
You have an unfortuante tendency to embellish by comments. You either misunderstand, over-interpret or read too much into them.capaho
I do rather favor embellishments in my speech, so I'll let it speak for itself.

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

People objectify women. Images don't. You might have said such images promote the objectification of women, but as stated, your assertion is false. And again, it is down down to the people playing the game to decide whether a woman is a person with feelings or something to be masticated, consumed, and/or lived in. And couldn't the nature of the game(I.E. beating the bejesus out of those women-and in my case with a male character) be as objectionable as their cup size or their attire?

capaho

My assertion is false? I was referring to an article in the Atlantic Monthly, it wasn't my assertion.

The images are intended to cash in on people who objectify women.

So many clueless, so little time.

#125 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"] [QUOTE="capaho"]capaho

You have an unfortuante tendency to embellish by comments. You either misunderstand, over-interpret or read too much into them.

Oh yes, your belligerent demeanor is merely everyone else's inability to understand your nuanced and clever writing.

And by "embellishing your comments" do you mean quote them verbatim?

Because that is precisely what he did.

#126 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"] The problem is you are an intellectual glass jaw...El_Zo1212o
:D I want to buy the rights to that statement.

Consider it a gift. ;)

#127 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"]

[QUOTE="El_Zo1212o"]

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Grammaton-Cleric

Blah! Blah! Blah!

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Is this a tag-team match? If it is I need to find my own sidekick.

#128 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="capaho"]

Blah! Blah! Blah!

capaho

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Is this a tag-team match? If it is I need to find my own sidekick.

He's Batman, I'm Salem. I always was more of a sidekick kinda guy. And not to be too antagonistic, but can you find anyone who'll take your side in a debate like this one? (Okay, maybe I was being antagonistic... just a little)
#129 Posted by Metamania (12010 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="capaho"]

Blah! Blah! Blah!

capaho

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Is this a tag-team match? If it is I need to find my own sidekick.

Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.

#130 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"]

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

Blah! Blah! Blah! Blah!

Metamania

Is this a tag-team match? If it is I need to find my own sidekick.

Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.

Heya! I was wondering when you'd show up. We need a cool side-sidekick name for you... hmm... did Nightwing ever get a sidekick?
#131 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -
The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway.

There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.

capaho
Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.
#132 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.

Metamania

I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.

I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.

Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

#133 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway. [QUOTE="capaho"]

There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.

skrat_01

Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.

Yes, what you say is true. I was talking about the social or intellectual significance of this particular game beyond the issue of the objectification of women, at least as I see it.

#134 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway. [QUOTE="capaho"]

There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.

capaho

Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.

Yes, what you say is true. I was talking about the social or intellectual significance of this particular game beyond the issue of the objectification of women, at least as I see it.

Ah gotcha! Yeah I couldn't agree more, over analysing a game that's pretty blunt in representing gender and sexuality isn't doing anyone favours.
#135 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

Ah gotcha! Yeah I couldn't agree more, over analysing a game that's pretty blunt in representing gender and sexuality isn't doing anyone favours.skrat_01

Nor is the game itself.

#136 Posted by Michael0134567 (28651 posts) -

It's always been a key thing about the series, so whatever.

#137 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway. [QUOTE="capaho"]

There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.

skrat_01

Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.

By bathing in its soft-porn image, do you mean it has females dressed in outfits not dissimilar from other games in the genre?

Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.

Now to be completely fair DOA has a storied history, including those embarrassing volley ball asides, but the actual fighting games, especially this latest entry, are no more gratuitous in their depiction of sexualized women than any other fighter.

Or any other number of games for that matter.

#138 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18477 posts) -
Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.Grammaton-Cleric
I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?
#139 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.

I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.

Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

capaho

You literally come off like a person who doesn't even fully grasp what they've written with their own hand.

That isn't an insult but a glaringly obvious observation.

To state that you haven't been arguing is lunacy; you might as well have claimed to not have drawn oxygen into your lungs during the last 24 hours.

As a point of fact you have been arguing incessantly and very selectively. You imbue your words with hostility and derision, then claim innocence when called out for these behaviors.

As Meta stated, you try and string together a copious amount of intellectual-sounding sentences but your arguments falter when you are pressed to defend them. You are a classic passive-aggressive whether you care to admit it or not and you have a nasty habit of blaming others when your logic fails.

And no, we don't need to lighten up. It's all you, every time.

You are one of the people who decided to slander an entire culture based on a VIDEOGAME. You are the one who pushed the notion that my playing the game suggested I lack empathy for those people who do not enjoy a full measure of equity. You are the one who tossed around cheap armchair psychobabble even while dodging the many specific points I made in my rebuttals.

It's not us. It's you.

#140 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.Black_Knight_00
I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?

Chun Lis classic outfit is pretty skimpy, especially as it pertains to length.

Juris outfit is also very revealing and Sakura is basically prototypical Japanese School Girl Fetish fodder.

Elena from SFIII is sexualized as well.

#141 Posted by skrat_01 (33767 posts) -

[QUOTE="skrat_01"]The game baths in its soft-porn image, and that's one of the major reasons DOA even has notoriety. Fair enough the audience would want more of it. It's silly pandering, but this this an audience the developers is directly catering for anyway. [QUOTE="capaho"]

There isn't much of intellectual or social significance to waste time on.

Grammaton-Cleric

Considering it's (all the sex, animie, manga, hentai, games, fetishes) are a very identifiable part of a modern Japanese sub culture, there's been plenty of cultural commentary and papers written about it.

By bathing in its soft-porn image, do you mean it has females dressed in outfits not dissimilar from other games in the genre?

Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.

Now to be completely fair DOA has a storied history, including those embarrassing volley ball asides, but the actual fighting games, especially this latest entry, are no more gratuitous in their depiction of sexualized women than any other fighter.

Or any other number of games for that matter.

Sure, many games do, I'm certainly not excluding those games (though I'd say Tekken and SF don't necessarily stray into this territory) Soul Calibur especially is as much about hypersexualization as DOA; the difference being DOA is a franchise that stemmed into the 'Extreme Beach Volley Ball' territory, which outright is minigames and video-game soft porn - as you mentioned. DOA certainly isn't the rule when it comes to video game soft porn, that's for sure. The fighting genre isn't exclusive to this either. What I like about the DOA series is that it's outright honest about its intentions, and isn't trying to masquerade as something that it isn't, same with Soul Cailbur. Other games like Bayonetta fall into that category too; though that's all very much part of its outrageous camp humour.
#142 Posted by Grammaton-Cleric (7513 posts) -

Sure, many games do, I'm certainly not excluding those games (though I'd say Tekken and SF don't necessarily stray into this territory) Soul Calibur especially is as much about hypersexualization as DOA; the difference being DOA is a franchise that stemmed into the 'Extreme Beach Volley Ball' territory, which outright is minigames and video-game soft porn - as you mentioned. DOA certainly isn't the rule when it comes to video game soft porn, that's for sure. The fighting genre isn't exclusive to this either. What I like about the DOA series is that it's outright honest about its intentions, and isn't trying to masquerade as something that it isn't, same with Soul Cailbur. Other games like Bayonetta fall into that category too; though that's all very much part of its outrageous camp humour. skrat_01

What's interesting about DOA5 is that I think they were more concerned with making a legitimate fighter than facilitating fetishistic fantasies.

The mistake was taking the criticisms about the breasts seriously and worse, publically admitting they did so.

DOA5 is a fantastic game and frankly it doesn't require this type of superficial content.

#143 Posted by capaho (1253 posts) -

You literally come off like a person who doesn't even fully grasp what they've written with their own hand.

That isn't an insult but a glaringly obvious observation.

To state that you haven't been arguing is lunacy; you might as well have claimed to not have drawn oxygen into your lungs during the last 24 hours.

As a point of fact you have been arguing incessantly and very selectively. You imbue your words with hostility and derision, then claim innocence when called out for these behaviors.

As Meta stated, you try and string together a copious amount of intellectual-sounding sentences but your arguments falter when you are pressed to defend them. You are a classic passive-aggressive whether you care to admit it or not and you have a nasty habit of blaming others when your logic fails.

And no, we don't need to lighten up. It's all you, every time.

You are one of the people who decided to slander an entire culture based on a VIDEOGAME. You are the one who pushed the notion that my playing the game suggested I lack empathy for those people who do not enjoy a full measure of equity. You are the one who tossed around cheap armchair psychobabble even while dodging the many specific points I made in my rebuttals.

It's not us. It's you.

Grammaton-Cleric

Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?

As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.

#144 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

You literally come off like a person who doesn't even fully grasp what they've written with their own hand.

That isn't an insult but a glaringly obvious observation.

To state that you haven't been arguing is lunacy; you might as well have claimed to not have drawn oxygen into your lungs during the last 24 hours.

As a point of fact you have been arguing incessantly and very selectively. You imbue your words with hostility and derision, then claim innocence when called out for these behaviors.

As Meta stated, you try and string together a copious amount of intellectual-sounding sentences but your arguments falter when you are pressed to defend them. You are a classic passive-aggressive whether you care to admit it or not and you have a nasty habit of blaming others when your logic fails.

And no, we don't need to lighten up. It's all you, every time.

You are one of the people who decided to slander an entire culture based on a VIDEOGAME. You are the one who pushed the notion that my playing the game suggested I lack empathy for those people who do not enjoy a full measure of equity. You are the one who tossed around cheap armchair psychobabble even while dodging the many specific points I made in my rebuttals.

It's not us. It's you.

capaho

Just to clarify the situation, are you a high school student?

As for my comments on Japanese culture, they are not based on a videogame. I lived there for 15 years.

From what ages?
#145 Posted by Black_Knight_00 (18477 posts) -

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"][QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]Because by your metric, Tekken, Street Fighter, Soul Calibur, etc. are all indulging in such soft-porn aesthetics.Grammaton-Cleric

I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?

Chun Lis classic outfit is pretty skimpy, especially as it pertains to length.

Juris outfit is also very revealing and Sakura is basically prototypical Japanese School Girl Fetish fodder.

Elena from SFIII is sexualized as well.

Close enough I guess, but none of them scream sex the way a Kasumi, a Chrissie, a Sophitia or a Mai Shiranui does. I agree that the line is a blurry one, but I feel I could safely say that Street Fighter characters are more "beautiful" than sexually charged. At the very least when compared to the other games mentioned, SF is the smallest "offender"
#146 Posted by Metamania (12010 posts) -

[QUOTE="Grammaton-Cleric"]

[QUOTE="Black_Knight_00"] I agree on the games you mentioned, except one: aside from Cammy's swimsuit I can't think of a single sexualized character in Street Fighter. Would you please make some examples?Black_Knight_00

Chun Lis classic outfit is pretty skimpy, especially as it pertains to length.

Juris outfit is also very revealing and Sakura is basically prototypical Japanese School Girl Fetish fodder.

Elena from SFIII is sexualized as well.

Close enough I guess, but none of them scream sex the way a Kasumi, a Chrissie, a Sophitia or a Mai Shiranui does. I agree that the line is a blurry one, but I feel I could safely say that Street Fighter characters are more "beautiful" than sexually charged. At the very least when compared to the other games mentioned, SF is the smallest "offender"

I can't think of a fighter that had the most cleanest image when it comes to females in fighting game. Perhaps something in the older days?

#147 Posted by Metamania (12010 posts) -

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.

capaho

I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.

I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.

Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.

The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.

And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.

#148 Posted by El_Zo1212o (6019 posts) -

[QUOTE="capaho"]

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

Fact is, I've been watching this argument between you three happen and I hate to tell you this, but their arguments sound a lot more logical and precise then what you are currently offering. If you haven't been able to provide something decent to them, then why are still arguing with them? This is precisely the same thing that I've seen on the Sleeping Dogs forum; your arguments, as logical and precise as they try to be, don't really end up working well in your favor. There is no one else to blame but yourself on this...that's all I"m saying.

Metamania

I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.

I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.

Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.

The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.

And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.

I don't think it has as much to do with his point not coming across as it does his unwillingness to defend his points. In both this thread and the infamous Sleeping Dogs thread, every time someone picks his points apart, he responds to the least important, but potentially most defensible points in the rebuttal. He isn't concerned with defending his position as much he is concerned with "winning" each exchange. But what really gets me is how he backtracks and attempts to revise his positions, and when it's brought to his attention, he stil denies, denies, denies. I like to think that if I got caught reversing my position because of a thoughtless post and then had it shown to me exactly how, that I would at least cop to my mistake.
#149 Posted by Metamania (12010 posts) -

[QUOTE="Metamania"]

[QUOTE="capaho"]

I remember the tone of your comments in the Sleeping Dogs discussion as well.

I haven't been arguing because it is never my intention to pursuade or to be pursuaded, I'm interested in civil discussion. I find the kind of argument that commonly erupts here to be rather distasteful. I participate in a discussion to the extent that it piques my interest and I comment on the topic at hand as I see it. When I reply, the comments that are directed at me influence the nature of my reply. As I have already stated, it is never my intention to insult or offend, but provocative comments will likely elicit provocative replies all the way around.

Either some of you take me too seriously, take yourselves too seriously, or think I take these discussions too seriously. We are talking about games, after all. Perhaps everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

El_Zo1212o

My tone, as you call it, was honest and sincere. Yes, I got carried away from it, but I was passionate about the subject. A little too passionate, perhaps, but nevertheless, my tone was correct and accurate for the most part. I did what I had to do. Simple as that. And you don't like it, which is fine by me, because I sure don't care for apologizing for what I said back then.

The problem that you have is that you try a bit too hard and when it's not doing so well for you, you do results to veiled insults and the like in order to try and aggravate some of us on it. It all comes to us not seeing your point of the argument, because your reasoning behind them just isn't good enough. Yes, we are here for civil discussion and participation, but insults and slander is simply not needed to make your point across.

And for the record, I don't take myself seriously at all. And I don't believe Grammaton and El Zo do either.

I don't think it has as much to do with his point not coming across as it does his unwillingness to defend his points. In both this thread and the infamous Sleeping Dogs thread, every time someone picks his points apart, he responds to the least important, but potentially most defensible points in the rebuttal. He isn't concerned with defending his position as much he is concerned with "winning" each exchange. But what really gets me is how he backtracks and attempts to revise his positions, and when it's brought to his attention, he stil denies, denies, denies. I like to think that if I got caught reversing my position because of a thoughtless post and then had it shown to me exactly how, that I would at least cop to my mistake.

That'e exactly my point; the argument that he attempts to make doesn't do well for him and when all else fails, he denies and accuses us.

#150 Posted by S0lidSnake (29001 posts) -

lol capaho vs GGD part 2.

The Blah Blah Blah post might be grounds for a suspension if i were to report it. But i see the PGD regulars here are going to ruin his next few days so I'll stand down.