Boogy32 said:
@quit975: @loafofgame:
But we might as well include war as a game then. People willingly participate in wars. I don't presume that you know what they are thinking, I certainly don't, but do you think war is just a game to them? I still think the definition is too broad, but we could narrow it down by introducing this morality part. I am having some trouble deciding whether I think this is subjective or objective thinking. But, either way, people willingly and regularly take part of rule based activities that they probably don't consider a game themselves. Another example could be charity. I strongly think we need to further narrow down our definition.
Well, we still have the aforementioned 'superfluous' aspect. The rules of traffic, work and war are created to optimize the road to a given goal; they are made to achieve goals as effective as possible. Game rules are there to create a challenge, to create obstacles that are inefficient and unnecessary; they're there to limit and challenge. That is where games differ significantly from other rule based activities we voluntarily take part in. It might be one of the most vital parts of the definition.
As for the voluntary aspect, it carries more weight in games than it does in war, traffic or work. It's easier to voluntarily enter and exit the game space than it is to voluntarily enter or exit the work, traffic or war space. Games present a much more separated and confined space. And as I said, once we enter we should have an option to exit. When we're in a war situation, there are no options to instantly quit and exit the war space, yet when we play Battlefield we can quit the game or press the pause button. Anyway, the voluntary aspect is only part of the definition, but I think it should be part of it, otherwise you can include a myriad of activities people do against their will and more importantly, you might be dismissing the fact that games need an actual player, instead of some instrument or object that simply keeps the game process going.
As far as I'm concerned these are the most important aspects of a game so far: goals, rules, a feedback system (which hasn't really been discussed, but still), voluntary participation and superfluous obstacles. I think those aspects make for a definition that is narrow enough to exclude most of the examples that have been discussed so far, like war, traffic and work.
@Boogy32 said:
I think that I probably see games as more static things than you do. I also don't think that we should allow everyday activities to qualify as games. Playing a game is certainly an everyday activity though.
I think that taking the above aspects into consideration excludes most everyday activities from the definition.
@Boogy32 said:
The purpose of a match of soccer, is not to hurt your opponents. That's a risk you run, when you try to take the ball from someone else. The Hunger Games' purpose is to get the players to kill. That's not a case of increasing the stakes, that's a case of rewriting the fundamental aspects of the activity, so that it is no longer a risk but a guarantee. When someone dies in a war, it is the consequence of a deliberate action by another 'player'. When someone in soccer gets hurt, it is usually a consequence of an accident.
Boxing is a game: it has goals, rules, a feedback system that provides information about the progression of the match, both players voluntarily take part in this activity and accept the rules as they are, and there are superfluous obstacles that stops people from reaching the goals in the most effective way (players aren't allowed to hit certain body parts, they wear protective head gear, a referee is allowed to interfere, etc.). Most fighting games also have a concede option, so there's the possibility to end the game at any moment. I don't think we should exclude boxing as a game just because you hurt other people. The Hunger Games do not qualify, because the players do not voluntarily take part and because they can't quit the game. Work, traffic and war do not qualify, because they do not have superfluous obstacles, because some aspects of the activity might be involuntary and because, again, there's no immediate option to quit. I stress the option to quit, because I believe voluntary participation is continuous, not just initial.
Edit: or what @Grieverr said in far less words... ;-) (although I'm still sceptical about the entertainment and leisure part; that doesn't seem to be a fundamental characteristic, even though it probably drives the majority of people who play games)
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