.:: Hungarian GP Discussion Thread ::. (Alonso/McLaren Penalty Update)

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Redders1989

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#1 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts

2007 Hungarian GP

Welcome to the Hungarian GP Dicussion thread. Please feel free to discuss anything to do with this weekend's Grand Prix here. This first post will fill with more information as the weekend progresses.

RANDOM FACT
The Hungarian GP has only ever been won from a driver on the front row, apart from three occasions - Nigel Mansell in 1989 (from 12th), Kimi Raikkonen in 2005 (from 3rd) and Jenson Button last year (from 14th).

POINTS OF DISCUSSION

  1. Sakon Yamamoto replaces Marcus Winkelhock for the remainder of the season - did Spyker make the right choice, or was there someone better?
  2. Another driver change, Scott Speed is outsed at Toro Rosso for Sebastian Vettel - Will we see the outspoken American in F1 again?
  3. Hungary is a high-downforce track, like Monaco, where Ferrari had no answer to McLaren at all - will we see the same story unfold, or do you believe Kimi Raikkonen and think Ferrari will still be fighting McLaren?
  4. Fernando Alonso & Felipe Massa were seen having an argument just before going on the podium 2 weeks ago - how do you think this will affect their on-track relationship should they come into close company again?

(Thanks to cjek for providing all times fromall sessions)

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cjek

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#2 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Practice 1 results:

1. KUBICABMW1m22.390s
2. MASSA Ferrari1m22.519s
3.RAIKKONENFerrari1m22.540s
4. ALONSOMclaren1m22.585s
5.HAMILTONMcLaren1m22.654s
6. HEIDFELDBMW1m22.891s
7.ROSBERG Williams1m22.983s
8. BUTTONHonda1m23.294s
9. BARRICHELLOHonda1m23.601s
10. R SCHUMACHERToyota1m23.802s
11. DAVIDSONSuper Aguri1m24.102s
12. TRULLIToyota1m24.318s
13. WURZWilliams1m24.321s
14. COULTHARDRed Bull1m24.474s
15. KOVALAINENRenault1m24.733s
16. VETTELToro Rosso1m24.905s
17. FISICHELLARenault1m24.920s
18. LIUZZIToro Rosso1m24.976s
19. SATOSuper Aguri 1m25.307s
20. WEBBERRed Bull1m25.584s
21. SUTIL Spyker1m26.332s
22. YAMAMOTOSpyker1m28.118s


Bear in mind that most of the top times were set in the last few minutes, and so there wasn't time for anyone including the Ferrari's, the McLaren's or Heidfeld to respond to that impressive lap by Kubica. Expect a close session 2 in just over 50 minutes.

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BlaZe_irl

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#3 BlaZe_irl
Member since 2006 • 1886 Posts
I hope Alonso and Massa take eachother out, then fight afterwards XD it would be good to watch wile the 70 lap parade is going on....
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cjek

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#4 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Practice 2 results:

1. ALONSO Mclaren 1m20.919s
2. KOVALAINEN Renault 1m21.283s
3. HAMILTON McLaren 1m21.338s
4. ROSBERG Williams 1m21.485s
5. HEIDFELD BMW 1m21.517s
6. RAIKKONEN Ferrari 1m21.589s
7. MASSA Ferrari 1m21.620s
8. FISICHELLA Renault 1m21.698s
9. TRULLI Toyota 1m21.857s
10. KUBICA BMW 1m21.906s
11. SCHUMACHER Toyota 1m21.912s
12. WURZ Williams 1m21.987s
13. WEBBER Red Bull 1m22.325s
14. COULTHARD Red Bull 1m22.483s
15. DAVIDSON Super Aguri 1m22.510s
16. BUTTON Honda 1m22.550s
17. SATO Super Aguri 1m22.556s
18. BARRICHELLO Honda 1m22.727s
19. LIUZZI Toro Rosso 1m23.136s
20. VETTEL Toro Rosso 1m23.148s
21. SUTIL Spyker 1m23.673s
22. YAMAMOTO Spyker 1m26.307s

Hamilton spun off into the gravel late on in the session, and Massa spun shortly after on the final corner but managed to get back on track. A fairly uneventful session overall.

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Khoo1992

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#5 Khoo1992
Member since 2005 • 2472 Posts
Yamamoto made quite a lot of mistakes
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XSamFisherX

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#6 XSamFisherX
Member since 2003 • 3414 Posts
Do they still use the 107% rule with the new qualifying format? If so, Yamomoto would be close to not making the show.
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Redders1989

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#7 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts
No, that was dropped when F1 went to single-lap qualifying in 2003. It returned in 2006, only for fuel credits though, and it was increased to 110% for a flying lap, 120% for an in/outlap. Something many people don't know, and that I myself only found out last night, is that this rule has actually been dropped without notice, hence how Kimi had three laps more fuel than Massa for the second stop in France this year (his inlap at one point was a 2m23s sommut-or-other).
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ninjaroach81

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#8 ninjaroach81
Member since 2006 • 443 Posts
With luck, we'll see Speed somewhere next year.  It's not his fault the STR2 is a turd with wheels.
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aloushi87

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#9 aloushi87
Member since 2003 • 2515 Posts
The Ferrari seemed to struggle in the 2nd practice session. We might see another Monaco-like scenario this sunday. As for the Yamamoto issue, the commentator was saying smth like the main reason behind keeping him is that he's able to get some sponsers (hence, money) for the team.

I hope to see rain this sunday, and may be an exciting race like that of last year! :D
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ninjaroach81

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#10 ninjaroach81
Member since 2006 • 443 Posts
I caught that comment on Yamamoto, too.  They said he brought $4-10 million; money Spyker desperately needs.
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ninjaroach81

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#11 ninjaroach81
Member since 2006 • 443 Posts
What we all have to remember is Friday practice times mean s***.  No one knows what programs everyone was running.  The first real clues should come out of tomorrows' practice; of course, if it rains, who knows what will happen!
(begins doing rain dance...).
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BlaZe_irl

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#12 BlaZe_irl
Member since 2006 • 1886 Posts

What we all have to remember is Friday practice times mean s***. No one knows what programs everyone was running. The first real clues should come out of tomorrows' practice; of course, if it rains, who knows what will happen!
(begins doing rain dance...).ninjaroach81

well actually, as well as doing race preparations, the teams will be doing qualy runs, which means doing at least a few low-fuel runs.... so ATM mclaren have the edge over ferrari

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indianapepsi

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#13 indianapepsi
Member since 2003 • 236 Posts

This GP I recon is one of the best and most unprodictable of the calender, it is my farorite to watch and to play in F1 06 for PS3. The best race here has to be the 97' season when Damon Hill came so close, I was never really a fan of his but I almost cried for him when he had those problems on the last lap, and I really miss the Arrows team too :(

Speed I think was up and down but he was more than good enough to be in the STR team and I think maybe next year we might see him drive due to the fact there are several teams yet too announce there line up for next season.

This race is always up in the air, so watch the driver between 4th n 12th, I have a strong feeling thats where the winner will come from lol

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cjek

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#14 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Saturday practice results:

01 F. Massa Ferrari 1:20.183 15 laps
02 F. Alonso McLaren 1:20.414 11 laps
03 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:20.461 11 laps
04 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:20.565 18 laps
05 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:20.741 15 laps
06 N. Rosberg Williams 1:20.868 16 laps
07 J. Trulli Toyota 1:20.878 22 laps
08 R. Schumacher Toyota 1:20.933 21 laps
09 M. Webber Red Bull 1:21.220 13 laps
10 A. Wurz Williams 1:21.323 15 laps
11 A. Davidson Super Aguri 1:21.501 20 laps
12 R. Kubica BMW 1:21.666 18 laps
13 H. Kovalainen Renault 1:21.666 22 laps
14 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:21.752 15 laps
15 T. Sato Super Aguri 1:21.839 18 laps
16 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:21.909 21 laps
17 G. Fisichella Renault 1:22.131 22 laps
18 J. Button Honda 1:22.202 23 laps
19 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:22.394 20 laps
20 R. Barrichello Honda 1:22.596 18 laps
21 A. Sutil Spyker F1 1:23.560 22 laps
22 S. Yamamoto Spyker F1 1:24.062 24 laps

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Redders1989

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#15 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts
no no NO Fernando, oh good LORD that takes the biscuit. I'm sorry but how on EARTH can he think that's acceptable? I'm a supporter of him, but that just lost my respect for him. To PURPOSELY holdsomeone up, let alone your own teammate, is plain unsportmanship. Sorry, but as talented as the guy is, you don't do that. F1 is damaged enough already, DON'T add to it Fernando!
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cjek

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#16 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Qualifying results:

Dirty tactics have claimed Alonso's pole position in Hungary, denying Hamilton a potential pole position by blocking him in the pits, while Raikkonen was beaten by Heidfeld to third place and Massa couldn't make it past the second round of qualifying

01 F. Alonso McLaren 1:19.674
02 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:19.781
03 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:20.259
04 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:20.410
05 N. Rosberg Williams 1:20.632
06 R. Schumacher Toyota 1:20.714
07 R. Kubica BMW 1:20.876
08 G. Fisichella Renault 1:21.079
09 J. Trulli Toyota 1:21.206
10 M. Webber Red Bull 1:21.256
11 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:20.718
12 H. Kovalainen Renault 1:20.779
13 A. Wurz Williams 1:20.865
14 F. Massa Ferrari 1:21.021
15 A. Davidson Super Aguri 1:21.127
16 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:21.993
17 J. Button Honda 1:21.737
18 R. Barrichello Honda 1:21.877
19 T. Sato Super Aguri 1:22.143
20 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:22.177
21 A. Sutil Spyker F1 1:22.737
22 S. Yamamoto Spyker F1 1:23.774

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kipi19

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#17 kipi19
Member since 2005 • 4590 Posts

I think this is being blown waaaaaaaaaay out of proportion, mainly because it happened to lewis. much worse things have happened in the past, take Senna and prost in Estoril 88, Suzuka in 89 and 90, way worse than this.

Its way out of proportion becuase it happened to Lewis "Jesus" hamilton.Sh** happens, LET'EM RACE!!

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Redders1989

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#18 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts

Well, I don't know how many more people noticed it, but on Alonso's second fuel-burning lap, he went wide slightly then was waving his fist really badly. I think things disintergrated VERY early on. Still, yes, they're not as bad as what other things have been before, I agree kipi, but any form of unsportmanship-like tactics isn't acceptablke in F1. If Schumi was his teammate and he'd done that to Michael (anyone who knows me well enough knows Michael was not one of the drivers i didn't like much), I'd still be rather annoyed by what he did, because it's just not something acceptable in F1. It isn't the worst thing in the world, but a punishment should still be given, as it was "intentional blocking", and even though I'm sure that's only for the racetrack, I feel it should be implemented into the pit lane too after that.

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kipi19

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#19 kipi19
Member since 2005 • 4590 Posts

Did anyone take into consideration that Alonso may have been right, and that the team held him up to get some clear space on the track? and Lewis suffered from it?

Things are being blwn waaaayyyyyy out of proportion all becuase it happened to Saint bloody hamilton, he is getting way to much attention and its is really grinding my gears. :x

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cjek

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#20 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

I don't care who it happens to, the fact is, a driver was impeded deliberately, and it's just a dirty way to get pole. Michael Schumacher tried it and failed, but because this was an incident within the team and not on the track, then obviously it's just advantage taken of the rules, not rule breaking.

Anyway, and more importantly, Ferrari aren't looking too good on the circuit at all. I don't know why Massa was struggling, but he seemed to have trouble keeping the car on the racing line, and obviously he's got a task ahead of him tomorrow. Raikkonen may or may not beat Heidfeld tomorrow, it's just too hard to tell. First few laps should be interesting.

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cjek

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#21 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Did anyone take into consideration that Alonso may have been right, and that the team held him up to get some clear space on the track? and Lewis suffered from it?

Things are being blwn waaaayyyyyy out of proportion all becuase it happened to Saint bloody hamilton, he is getting way to much attention and its is really grinding my gears. :x

kipi19

It's nothing to do with the fact that it was Hamilton.. if any other driver was in that situation the reaction from everyone would be the same. Even more fuss and attention surrounded Michael Schumacher's incident.

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Redders1989

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#22 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts
If you mean the first time where he was being stopped from going, then yes it is a factor for what happened to be part of the team's fault. The second time too, they waited for a good spot, but lewis was still on his way/only just got there when the lollipop was raised. But there was a good 5 - 10 seconds where Alonso could've gone, but didn't, so we have to ask why it happened, whether it was intentional, or if there was a problem, we don't know, but at the moment, it seems intentional, so we can only speculate until an official statement is made. I do agree with you that maybe this is blown out of proportion because it is Lewis, but take that into consideration PLUS it can and may affect the World Championship, it's why it's so big for most people. If it was a midfield-type thing, then it wouldn't be that big with some people, I think it's more because of the World Championship though it's being made an issue of, unless of course you happen to work for ITV, then it's coz of Lewis :lol:
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#23 wombat26
Member since 2005 • 2284 Posts
Ron Dennis seemed to be absolutely furious. It'll be interesting to see what, if anything, happens to Alonso. Although, I must say I agree with Kipi in this. It certainly wasn't exactly sporting by Alonso, but the matter has been blown totally out of proportion beause the victim was the golden child of Formula 1.
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Khoo1992

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#24 Khoo1992
Member since 2005 • 2472 Posts

Heifeld had a good qualifying session

Alonso learned some dirrty tactics....

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aloushi87

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#25 aloushi87
Member since 2003 • 2515 Posts
The Q. session was fairly interetsing. Heidfield did an exceptionaly impressive performance. I wasn't surprised to see the Mclaren in the top 2; since they seem to have the edge in low-downforce circuits.

If it rains tomorow, all the cards will be shuffled again! (I hope it will!)
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DanC1989

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#26 DanC1989
Member since 2004 • 50952 Posts
Alonso's down in 5th now..cheater :P
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cjek

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#27 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Ok, so here's the grid after Alonso and Fisichella penalties:

Revised starting grid:

01 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:19.781
02 N. Heidfeld BMW 1:20.259
03 K. Räikkönen Ferrari 1:20.410
04 N. Rosberg Williams 1:20.632
05 R. Schumacher Toyota 1:20.714
06 F. Alonso McLaren 1:19.674**
07 R. Kubica BMW 1:20.876
08
J. Trulli Toyota 1:21.206
09 M. Webber Red Bull 1:21.256
10 D. Coulthard Red Bull 1:20.718
11 H. Kovalainen Renault 1:20.779
12 A. Wurz Williams 1:20.865
13 G. Fisichella Renault 1:21.079**
14 F. Massa Ferrari 1:21.021
15 A. Davidson Super Aguri 1:21.127
16 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:21.993
17 J. Button Honda 1:21.737
18 R. Barrichello Honda 1:21.877
19 T. Sato Super Aguri 1:22.143
20 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso 1:22.177
21 A. Sutil Spyker F1 1:22.737
22 S. Yamamoto Spyker F1 1:23.774

**- position after 5 place penalty

Raikkonen is now out of the dirty side of the track, while Alonso moves into it :lol:

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Redders1989

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#28 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts

FERNANDO ALONSO DEMOTED TO 6TH, McLAREN WILL SCORE NO CONSTRUCTORS POINTS:

Fernando Alonso has been demoted to sixth on the Hungarian Grand Prix grid after stewards deemed he "unnecessarily impeded" McLaren team-mate Lewis Hamilton in Saturday's qualifying.

Alonso and the team's actions forced Hamilton to wait in the McLaren pit as the pair stacked up prior to their final qualifying runs.

And while the world champion made it back on track in time to snatch pole position, Hamilton missed the cut despite dominating the session until that point.

The 22-year-old was forced to settle for second, but has now been promoted to the front of the grid.

McLaren has also been informed that it will not be eligible to score constructors' championship points in Sunday's race with either car.

Team principal Ron Dennis told reporters after qualifying that the mix-up began because Hamilton didn't follow instructions to allow Alonso past during the fuel-burning phase of Q3, thus throwing the McLarens out of sequence.

Alonso also staunchly defended his actions, arguing that he was simply following the instructions of his engineers who were trying to find him a gap in traffic.

But after reviewing McLaren's radio transmissions and interviewing Dennis, team manager Dave Ryan and both drivers, the stewards said they did not accept either the team's or Alonso's explanations.

"The explanation given by Alonso as to why...he remained in his pit stop position for a further 10 seconds is not accepted," read an official statement released eight and a half hours after qualifying ended.

"The stewards find that he unnecessarily impeded another driver, Hamilton, and as a result he will be penalised by a loss of five grid positions.

"The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted.

"The actions of the team in the final minutes of qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally.

"The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula1 constructors' championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix wilt be withdrawn."

Alonso's grid relegation is not appealable but McLaren signalled on Saturday night that it will challenge the forfeiture of constructors' points.

It is the second year running that Alonso has lost places on the Hungarian GP grid at the hands of the stewards.

Last year, while driving for Renault, he started 15th after being penalised for brake-testing another car and overtaking under a yellow flag.

SOURCE: ITV-F1

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KimisApprentice

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#29 KimisApprentice
Member since 2006 • 2425 Posts
Burn. Lol C'mon McLaren keep 'em under control!
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Redders1989

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#30 Redders1989
Member since 2006 • 13410 Posts

McLAREN APPEALS STEWARDS' DECISION:

McLaren has appealed the decision of the FIA stewards to bar it from scoring any constructors' championship points in the Hungarian Grand Prix.

After a lengthy investigation into the contentious pit lane queuing incident between Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton, the stewards relegated pole-winner Alonso to sixth on the grid and declared the team ineligible for constructors' points.

McLaren will exercise its right to challenge the second of those penalties, which means Sunday's race results will be provisional pending the verdict of the International Court of Appeal.

The stewards punished McLaren for holding Alonso stationary in the pits for longer than they deemed necessary given the lack of traffic on the circuit (before Alonso then delayed Hamilton for a further 10 seconds).

"The explanation given by the team as to why they kept Alonso stationary for 20 seconds after completion of his tyre change and therefore delayed Hamilton's own pit stop is not accepted," read an official statement.

"The actions of the team in the final minutes of qualifying are considered prejudicial to the interests of the competition and to the interests of motor sport generally.

"The penalty to be applied is that such points (if any) in the 2007 Formula 1 constructors' championship as accrue to the team as a result of their participation in the 2007 Hungarian Grand Prix will be withdrawn."

SOURCE: ITV-F1

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cjek

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#31 cjek
Member since 2003 • 14327 Posts

Race Result:

1 L. Hamilton McLaren 1:35:52.991
2 K. Räikkönen Ferrari + 0.715
3 N. Heidfeld BMW + 43.129
4 F. Alonso McLaren + 44.858
5 R. Kubica BMW + 47.616
6 R. Schumacher Toyota + 50.669
7 N. Rosberg Williams + 59.139
8 H. Kovalainen Renault + 1:08.104
9 M. Webber Red Bull + 1:16.331
10 J. Trulli Toyota + 1 laps
11 D. Coulthard Red Bull + 1 laps
12 G. Fisichella Renault + 1 laps
13 F. Massa Ferrari + 1 laps
14 A. Wurz Williams + 1 laps
15 T. Sato Super Aguri + 1 laps
16 S. Vettel Scuderia Toro Rosso + 1 laps
17 A. Sutil Spyker F1 + 2 laps
18 R. Barrichello Honda + 2 laps
Did not finish
19 V. Liuzzi Scuderia Toro Rosso + 27 laps
20 A. Davidson Super Aguri + 29 laps
21 J. Button Honda + 35 laps
22 S. Yamamoto Spyker F1 + 65 laps

Overall it was a fairly average race. A couple of good overtaking moves near the beginning, but the race pretty much slowed after that. I was disappointed that there was so much focus with the cameras on the front 2 cars, while we saw no action from the back or even the mid field. Very poor video directing today.

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aloushi87

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#32 aloushi87
Member since 2003 • 2515 Posts
Yeah, it was an average race. A boring one to be honest! :S
Alonso was delayed a lot by Ralf, those two seem to hate each other a lot! :P I was disappointed by Massa's performance; I know his started from the lower part of the grid, yet I expected him to end up in the top eight, it wasn't his day.