New TOU for system wars - New threads must promote meanful disscusstion.

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#1 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

The current way to post new threads isn't effective as it is easy to level up, bypass and punish legit system users.

Regardless we should start punishing thoese who made bad threads regardless of their current lvl.

The only thing we need in order for this rule to be effective is to write a definiton of meaningful without any loopholes and vagueness. (The most difficult part).

#2 Posted by topsemag55 (19063 posts) -

You might consider checking how many of the serious SW users would be interested in creating a new SW union, you could post a thread in Union Recruitment.

It couldn't replace a forum of course, but it could serve as a way to relieve some of the frustration that serious SW members are experiencing.

A union leader can control who joins, which also limits posting.

Just a thought.:P

#3 Posted by super600 (30947 posts) -

The current way to post new threads isn't effective as it is easy to level up, bypass and punish legit system users.

Regardless we should start punishing thoese who made bad threads regardless of their current lvl.

The only thing we need in order for this rule to be effective is to write a definiton of meaningful without any loopholes and vagueness. (The most difficult part).

alexside1

No one barely level up now because of a glitch which is good for the users below level 10 that love to post garbage threads on SW.At least that glitch is a small solution.The best wa ot prevent these dumb threads from being created is to not post in them.

#4 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

The best wa ot prevent these dumb threads from being created is to not post in them.

super600
Easier said than done. Someone will post in it.
#5 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

[QUOTE="super600"]

The best wa ot prevent these dumb threads from being created is to not post in them.

alexside1

Easier said than done. Someone will post in it.

and there's some that will post even if they don't get replies.

#6 Posted by super600 (30947 posts) -

Anyway the mods are finally waking up and getting rid of some of the troublemakers like phonemug,pikachu,biotonic and more.

#7 Posted by getyeryayasout (8136 posts) -
Is there a way to limit the number of SW threads created by any user for a 24 hr. period? I think there should be a 2 thread max per 24 hrs. for non-paying users, and unlimited for paying users. Or would we just see more alts?
#8 Posted by super600 (30947 posts) -

Some more trobule makers like reach3,fgf and more have been banned.

#9 Posted by verbtex (8608 posts) -

We can't have a new TOU just for System Wars, but if you would like to suggest individual rules which can be added to the rule set in separate topics, maybe the administrators could have a few things changed here and there.

#10 Posted by topsemag55 (19063 posts) -

And here I thought all of the system arguments would have been settled by now, given the age of the PS3 and 360.:P

#11 Posted by michaelP4 (16680 posts) -
In all honesty, what topse said is probably the best thing to do. If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. That's how great things are started after all. But from what I can see, the SW you see now is here to stay. GS won't be going back on its relaxing of the rules, and if they ever were to, it won't be for a long time anyway.
#12 Posted by super600 (30947 posts) -

In all honesty, what topse said is probably the best thing to do. If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. That's how great things are started after all. But from what I can see, the SW you see now is here to stay. GS won't be going back on its relaxing of the rules, and if they ever were to, it won't be for a long time anyway.michaelP4

As long as GS gets rid of annoying troll spammers I'm happy. I actually kinda like the new SW, but those spammers make things worse on SW.

#13 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]In all honesty, what topse said is probably the best thing to do. If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. That's how great things are started after all. But from what I can see, the SW you see now is here to stay. GS won't be going back on its relaxing of the rules, and if they ever were to, it won't be for a long time anyway.super600

As long as GS gets rid of annoying troll spammers I'm happy. I actually kinda like the new SW, but those spammers make things worse on SW.

those spammers are part of the new system wars.

#14 Posted by super600 (30947 posts) -

[QUOTE="super600"]

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]In all honesty, what topse said is probably the best thing to do. If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. That's how great things are started after all. But from what I can see, the SW you see now is here to stay. GS won't be going back on its relaxing of the rules, and if they ever were to, it won't be for a long time anyway.CaseyWegner

As long as GS gets rid of annoying troll spammers I'm happy. I actually kinda like the new SW, but those spammers make things worse on SW.

those spammers are part of the new system wars.

True.

#15 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -
[QUOTE="michaelP4"] If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB.

I despise this type of response. It's basically telling the users to F*** off. There's nothing unreasonable to give feedback and criticism. That's how the current TOU is made from. There nothing wrong add more changes to it to make it better.
#16 Posted by topsemag55 (19063 posts) -

[QUOTE="michaelP4"] If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. alexside1
I despise this type of response. It's basically telling the users to F*** off. There's nothing unreasonable to give feedback and criticism. That's how the current TOU is made from. There nothing wrong add more changes to it to make it better.

Nothing wrong with Michael's answer, a lot of paid subscribers have UCBs, and your level is more than enough to start a union.

#17 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

[QUOTE="alexside1"][QUOTE="michaelP4"] If you don't like the SW GS provides, then make your own using a union/UCB. topsemag55

I despise this type of response. It's basically telling the users to F*** off. There's nothing unreasonable to give feedback and criticism. That's how the current TOU is made from. There nothing wrong add more changes to it to make it better.

Nothing wrong with Michael's answer, a lot of paid subscribers have UCBs, and your level is more than enough to start a union.

You can wave off ANY type of criticism by having this Type of altitude "Oh you don't like our x, than make your own x". Pretty much sure that it irritates you as much as I do. It's begs the question of why having a feedback section if you can't handle feedbacked.

#18 Posted by topsemag55 (19063 posts) -

You can wave off ANY type of criticism by having this Type of altitude "Oh you don't like our x, than make your own x". Pretty much sure that it irritates you as much as I do. It's begs the question of why having a feedback section if you can't handle feedbacked.

alexside1

Did you speak up before the new ToU was implemented? We were given a chance to.

It is doubtful that GS would return to the old ToU, which is why the idea of making your own board or union was broached to you.

Just out of curiosity, if a troll's post in SW bothers you, then why do you read them?

#19 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

You can wave off ANY type of criticism by having this Type of altitude "Oh you don't like our x, than make your own x". Pretty much sure that it irritates you as much as I do. It's begs the question of why having a feedback section if you can't handle feedbacked.

topsemag55

Did you speak up before the new ToU was implemented? We were given a chance to.

It is doubtful that GS would return to the old ToU, which is why the idea of making your own board or union was broached to you.

Just out of curiosity, if a troll's post in SW bothers you, then why do you read them?

i don't think anybody wants the old tou back. what people want is a balance between the old and the new. if the tou change was all about the benefit of the community, this is what they need to do.

#20 Posted by michaelP4 (16680 posts) -
Actually alexside1, the response I gave you was a practical one. The ToU was reformed months ago - the admins aren't going to do that again for who knows when. As a matter of fact, that's the first time they've ever done that. Making your own SW however can be done in a matter of minutes and you'd have complete control and responsibility for it. As for feedback: yeah, you gave your feedback, and me and topse are giving you our response to it. We're giving you a solution that you yourself can actually implement, rather than waiting for the admins to reform the ToU or the SW board, which probably won't be any time soon.
#21 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

You can wave off ANY type of criticism by having this Type of altitude "Oh you don't like our x, than make your own x". Pretty much sure that it irritates you as much as I do. It's begs the question of why having a feedback section if you can't handle feedbacked.

topsemag55

Did you speak up before the new ToU was implemented? We were given a chance to.

It is doubtful that GS would return to the old ToU, which is why the idea of making your own board or union was broached to you.

Just out of curiosity, if a troll's post in SW bothers you, then why do you read them?

I wasn't here 24/7. I never said anything about returning to the old Tou. No one said anything about returing to the Tou. What were asking is to improve the Tou to promote discussion without punishing honest users. I never said anything about troll's posts bothering me. (They don't)
#22 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

Actually alexside1, the response I gave you was a practical one. The ToU was reformed months ago - the admins aren't going to do that again for who knows when. As a matter of fact, that's the first time they've ever done that. Making your own SW however can be done in a matter of minutes and you'd have complete control and responsibility for it. As for feedback: yeah, you gave your feedback, and me and topse are giving you our response to it. We're giving you a solution that you yourself can actually implement, rather than waiting for the admins to reform the ToU or the SW board, which probably won't be any time soon.michaelP4

This isn't the first time they made changes to the tou. Your responses doesn't fix anything it just ignores the problem and further divides the community. Don't say they not going to do that again when in fact they did it again in less than a mouth to implement the NSFW rule. Theres nothing to prevent a change in the TOU.

#24 Posted by topsemag55 (19063 posts) -

[QUOTE="michaelP4"]Actually alexside1, the response I gave you was a practical one. The ToU was reformed months ago - the admins aren't going to do that again for who knows when. As a matter of fact, that's the first time they've ever done that. Making your own SW however can be done in a matter of minutes and you'd have complete control and responsibility for it. As for feedback: yeah, you gave your feedback, and me and topse are giving you our response to it. We're giving you a solution that you yourself can actually implement, rather than waiting for the admins to reform the ToU or the SW board, which probably won't be any time soon.alexside1

This isn't the first time they made changes to the tou. Your responses doesn't fix anything it just ignores the problem and further divides the community. Don't say they not going to do that again when in fact they did it again in less than a mouth to implement the NSFW rule. Theres nothing to prevent a change in the TOU.

His response doesn't "divide the community". Most serious users would appreciate a clean union where there are no trolls. Keeping trolls out does not divide the community.

Trolls try to divide the community by frustrating real members to the point to where they stop posting. I post in boards that have zero trolls, and it is refreshing and enjoyable.

#25 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

Actually alexside1, the response I gave you was a practical one. The ToU was reformed months ago - the admins aren't going to do that again for who knows when. As a matter of fact, that's the first time they've ever done that. Making your own SW however can be done in a matter of minutes and you'd have complete control and responsibility for it. As for feedback: yeah, you gave your feedback, and me and topse are giving you our response to it. We're giving you a solution that you yourself can actually implement, rather than waiting for the admins to reform the ToU or the SW board, which probably won't be any time soon.michaelP4

the system wars rules have changed once before. it used to be far more chaotic, allowed off topic discussion, some trolling, and flaming. things changed back when bethany was still the big cheese. it was after that that things eventually turned into the overly strict forum that system wars was for a long time. things change...just not very often. maybe that can change. :)

#26 Posted by michaelP4 (16680 posts) -
Those are SW rules though. I'm talking about the ToU itself - that's the first major change to it that allowed users to have a say in what would be changed.
#27 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

Those are SW rules though. I'm talking about the ToU itself - that's the first major change to it that allowed users to have a say in what would be changed.michaelP4

yes. a sitewide change of the tou is rather unprecedented before what happened here. i was just going by what the TC was getting at which was for the system wars forum.

#28 Posted by Vari3ty (11111 posts) -

The current way to post new threads isn't effective as it is easy to level up, bypass and punish legit system users.

Regardless we should start punishing thoese who made bad threads regardless of their current lvl.

The only thing we need in order for this rule to be effective is to write a definiton of meaningful without any loopholes and vagueness. (The most difficult part).

alexside1

Unfortunately this seems like it would be impossible, for reasons you admit. What constitutes meaningful discussion? This is just too vague to ever happen.

#29 Posted by DigitalDame (4249 posts) -

If you have any specific examples of what kind of rules adjustments you would like to see happen you are more than welcome to suggest them. However vague statements like "promote meanful discusstion." are unfortunately too obtuse.

With that said, there is a long list of detailed rules in the survival guide which can be found here.

Additionally, admins have made changes to SW's as needed in the past after discussion among the Rangers and Moderators so its not out of the question, we simply need more reasoning as well as insights in regards to specifics before we can make anything happen.

#30 Posted by Shadowchronicle (26039 posts) -
If you guys are up for it you should start thinking of some rules you want to add to the SW forums. For example instead of being level 10 and being able to make a thread change it to level 17 or something like that. Making a ucb is the best option though if you're up to it, you just have to make sure it is a forum like experience rather than a bunch of personal drama.
#31 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

just so nobody thinks that i'm pointing out problems without offering solutions, they've already been sent to jody per her personal request.

#32 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

[QUOTE="alexside1"]

The current way to post new threads isn't effective as it is easy to level up, bypass and punish legit system users.

Regardless we should start punishing thoese who made bad threads regardless of their current lvl.

The only thing we need in order for this rule to be effective is to write a definiton of meaningful without any loopholes and vagueness. (The most difficult part).

Vari3ty

Unfortunately this seems like it would be impossible, for reasons you admit. What constitutes meaningful discussion? This is just too vague to ever happen.

How about a list of examples of not mean full discussion? Can we all agree to that?
#33 Posted by alexside1 (4405 posts) -

just so nobody thinks that i'm pointing out problems without offering solutions, they've already been sent to jody per her personal request.

CaseyWegner
Whats your solution?
#34 Posted by CaseyWegner (70104 posts) -

[QUOTE="CaseyWegner"]

just so nobody thinks that i'm pointing out problems without offering solutions, they've already been sent to jody per her personal request.

alexside1

Whats your solution?

First and foremost, I do not and have never wanted the old rules restored. They were way too harsh and I never liked a lot of them. Our reputation across the internet was very negative and made it embarrassing to be a Gamespot mod. It often made answering Ask the Mods question difficult due to the vast area that the "trolling reason for moderation" could cover. A change was needed and I was glad to hear that there was going to be a poll to find out what the community really wants. However, I and (if the later opinion polls are to be believed) the majority think that the changes made in response to the survey went too far...that they went from one extreme to another. People seem to want a balance between the two like it was back in what those of us who have been in the community long enough consider the Golden Age of System Wars. Yes, there is always the option to just ignore the unsavory people but when the forum is full of them, it's not easy. The point I've been leading up to is this and it's a major problem. People who want to discuss the systems and have a debate without the trolls have absolutely nowhere to go aside from much less active user created boards. They can't go to the PGD forum since System Wars talk isn't allowed there. The Off Topic forum was split into two forums. Why not maybe create an alternate System Wars forum whose rules strike a balance between the old and the new? People can then choose what they want to put up with. Granted, I don't know what sorts of future plans there are for giving users control over their posting experience or when, if ever, they will be implemented but for now things are the way they are. When my suspension was over a user welcomed me back (clear out of the blue) and warned me that the System Wars forum is still a cesspool.

There's also the issue of the "Level 10 minimum to make new threads" rule. It's almost a contradiction. The rule exists to stop people from making and using low level accounts to annoy people while there's no rule against higher level users whose purpose is the same. It acknowledges that there's a problem (and this is key) but goes too far in its solution. New users who want to make perfectly fine threads are being treated the same as people who are not there to be positive contributors to the community. It's not exactly a warm welcome. To make matters worse, once those troll accounts reach level 10 there's nothing stopping them from doing what the rule previously blocked. The rule also isn't attached to any automated system. A mod still has to look at the thread before locking it. Aren't our mods good enough to tell the difference between a legitimate thread and a low level account troll thread? The "forum invasion" is there but doesn't solve much. The point I'm trying to make is that a carpet bombing is being used where a surgical strike would have been better to avoid collateral damage.

So what do I think should be done exactly? I guess this could be seen as a basic, general ruleset if it were up to me and what I feel would benefit the forum the most. Details can be worked out later.

-Flaming is fine to a certain extent. Don't go overboard.

-Some trolling is fine. Having an account for the sole purpose of annoying people is not fine.

-Calling a troll a troll is NOT modworthy

-Voicing your opinion without completely backing it up or explaining why is NOT modworthy.

-Calling somebody a fanboy is NOT modworthy

-You don't have to strictly adhere to the animal names when calling somebody a certain type of fanboy

It's a little different than the current TOU and makes some distinctions from the old TOU. It's not 100% complete but is a start. Set things up like this and I can guarantee that the problem will be fixed.