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Lionheart early in disc 1. Think Developers knew?

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  • Feb 23, 2013 3:06 am GMT
    One of my favorite things about these classic PS FF games are how complex they are. Do you think the developers had any idea making Squalls final weapon possible around the very beginning of the game?

    Dont you wish current JRPGs were this complex to the point you could get a lot of overpowered items early on in the game simply from just investing time in leveling specific abilities or playing side games?
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  • Feb 23, 2013 3:23 am GMT
    I don't call this complexity, I call it questionable development. Yeah, it's kind of cool to break a game (the fact that you can do so is one of the reasons I enjoy FFVIII), but I appreciate it more when the developers actually balance a game well.

    t~
  • Feb 23, 2013 4:27 am GMT
    From: tiornys | #002
    I don't call this complexity, I call it questionable development.

    Yes, it's obviously the developers fault you have no self control


    Yeah, it's kind of cool to break a game

    It's called Power Levelling


    but I appreciate it more when the developers actually balance a game well.

    If you stop using No Encounters and getting high end spells at level 7, you'll notice it's as perfectly balanced as any other Final Fantasy.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 5:00 am GMT
    pure mind games posted...
    From: tiornys | #002
    I don't call this complexity, I call it questionable development.

    Yes, it's obviously the developers fault you have no self control

    This isn't about my self control (which is just fine, thank you), or about the self control of any player. It's about objective evaluation of game balance, which is an aspect of game development (as opposed to game design).

    but I appreciate it more when the developers actually balance a game well.

    If you stop using No Encounters and getting high end spells at level 7, you'll notice it's as perfectly balanced as any other Final Fantasy.

    This is largely true only in that most games in the Final Fantasy series are poorly balanced. And no, I'm not talking about power leveling. I'm talking about the multiple routes to various game-breaking combinations and/or abilities that exist at par or lower levels, without the necessity of grinding, in almost every game of the series (in FFVIII, limit breaks are the primary culprit besides the elements you mention).

    Frankly, most RPGs out there--not just FF games--have questionable balance.

    It's a thing. It happens. It usually happens for multiple reasons. Some abilities are outright intended to be game-breakers. Spells named "Ultima" typically qualify, as do many summons. These are placed by the designers to serve a specific goal: allowing less skilled/less patient players to complete the story of the game. Others happen because they are overlooked or underestimated. FFVI's 128% MBlock setups fall into this category; they take advantage of a bug in the game, and were clearly never intended to be as powerful as they are.

    Is it a good thing to disturb game balance in the name of accessibility? I'm not sure. I will say that it's not necessarily bad. An RPG is not typically focused on its combat balance; it is focused on the story, and on various other things that can enhance the play experience. An RPG that is highly unbalanced can still be very enjoyable, unlike a fighting game or FPS, because there is far less need for balance in a non-competitive setting.

    But just because balance isn't needed, that does not mean it is unappreciated. I think most games are better if they have better balance. There are ways to make games accessible that don't involve handing out game-breaking abilities. As a consequence, I want to promote better game balance--something that the TC's post explicitly wants to break down.

    I'm not attacking FFVIII, although it seems that you think I am given your hostile reaction to my comments and your explicit defense of FFVIII in your response. I'm attacking the notion that broken gameplay is better gameplay. If you want to take issue with my stance, take issue with that.

    t~
  • Feb 23, 2013 6:29 am GMT
    Getting the Lionheart on disc 1 does NOT break the game.

    All it does is give you a VERY small increase in strength, and a completely unreliable finisher that you won't see the majority of the time.

    Of all the ways of breaking the game, getting the Lionheart is not one of them, especially as Zell can outperform Squall the minute you get him and has far and wide the best damage potential in the entire game (runs into millions, the guy can one shot Omega Weapon).

    Also note that apart from Irvine, you can get EVERYONE's final weapon on disc 1, just getting them alone only makes you marginally more damaging, without good junctions you'll be in the same position with or without them.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 7:16 am GMT
    sniperfox29 posted...
    Getting the Lionheart on disc 1 does NOT break the game.

    All it does is give you a VERY small increase in strength, and a completely unreliable finisher that you won't see the majority of the time.

    Of all the ways of breaking the game, getting the Lionheart is not one of them, especially as Zell can outperform Squall the minute you get him and has far and wide the best damage potential in the entire game (runs into millions, the guy can one shot Omega Weapon).

    Also note that apart from Irvine, you can get EVERYONE's final weapon on disc 1, just getting them alone only makes you marginally more damaging, without good junctions you'll be in the same position with or without them.


    Modded Death from Tonberry cards and I was killing bosses in Dollete with 1-2 hits. Edea took a but more but hey, shes Edea.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 7:56 am GMT
    Eh, I enjoy that RPGs are a little unbalanced. Going through the first few times normally and you'll remain at a much more average level, but then on another run you discover a little peninsula of power, or a bug and all of a sudden the game is there, ready for you to break. Of course FFVIII isn't the best example of this because you're not really going out of your way to get some extra goodies. You're doing what you pretty much need to do to get on with the game decently, and actually saving a lot of time for yourself. You can choose not to go to this area and get a huge amount of EXP and items and not make the next stages of the game much easier in some RPGs, but with FFVIII you can't choose to forget that getting spells and items from playing cards is more efficient and overpowering than the alternative of drawing, winning items and mugging without enforcing some strict limits on yourself.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 8:37 am GMT
    ObsceneAnarchy posted...
    sniperfox29 posted...
    Getting the Lionheart on disc 1 does NOT break the game.

    All it does is give you a VERY small increase in strength, and a completely unreliable finisher that you won't see the majority of the time.

    Of all the ways of breaking the game, getting the Lionheart is not one of them, especially as Zell can outperform Squall the minute you get him and has far and wide the best damage potential in the entire game (runs into millions, the guy can one shot Omega Weapon).

    Also note that apart from Irvine, you can get EVERYONE's final weapon on disc 1, just getting them alone only makes you marginally more damaging, without good junctions you'll be in the same position with or without them.


    Modded Death from Tonberry cards and I was killing bosses in Dollete with 1-2 hits. Edea took a but more but hey, shes Edea.


    Well yeah, that's the point he was making. The Ultimate Weapons don't really overpower you. Junctions do. You don't even need Lionheart, or Zell's limit to 1-2 shot anything, just Junction right and don't level much.
  • Feb 23, 2013 8:52 am GMT
    ObsceneAnarchy posted...
    sniperfox29 posted...
    Getting the Lionheart on disc 1 does NOT break the game.

    All it does is give you a VERY small increase in strength, and a completely unreliable finisher that you won't see the majority of the time.

    Of all the ways of breaking the game, getting the Lionheart is not one of them, especially as Zell can outperform Squall the minute you get him and has far and wide the best damage potential in the entire game (runs into millions, the guy can one shot Omega Weapon).

    Also note that apart from Irvine, you can get EVERYONE's final weapon on disc 1, just getting them alone only makes you marginally more damaging, without good junctions you'll be in the same position with or without them.


    Modded Death from Tonberry cards and I was killing bosses in Dollete with 1-2 hits. Edea took a but more but hey, shes Edea.


    Its what is on your strength junction thats the key, not the weapon itself. You'd probably be wiping the floor with most things if you were still using the Revolver.

    Oh, and your example is actually one of the underpowered ways of doing things. Get some triples from Quistis's card, slap them on Zell and Squall and you'll steam roll over absolutely everything for virtually the entire game (and yes, that is WITH their default weapons).

    Junctions mean everything, weapons mean (practically) nothing.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 9:39 am GMT
    The developers probably knew, considering the hours of QA and testing that goes into a game like this. Besides, I'd like to think they think through these things at least somewhat in advance when they're setting up the refinement lists for cards and all that.

    ObsceneAnarchy posted...
    Dont you wish current JRPGs were this complex to the point you could get a lot of overpowered items early on in the game simply from just investing time in leveling specific abilities or playing side games?


    Hmm...yes and no. It is kind of interesting and charming to be able to do it in this game, but as you said, it's not very good balance or design from an objective viewpoint. I guess it'd be fun to see something like this every now and again, but I definitely wouldn't want every (J)RPG to be like this.

    Also, speaking of current games...Skyrim kind of lets you do something similar to FFVIII's early-game junction shenanigans by levelling smithing and enchanting at the beginning of the game, right?
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  • Feb 23, 2013 10:26 am GMT
    The key to disc 1 Lionheart would appear to be the Grendel encounter in the forest near Galbadia Garden, which I'm fairly certain is a design oversight - the encounter settings from the clifftop bleeding over very slightly into the forest below, which is apparently an issue with most of the other clifftop areas of the game.

    So in that respect, I don't believe that the developers planned for it to be obtainable on disc 1 at all. It's just sheer luck that Grendels happen to appear in that overspilled encounter area, providing the Dragon Fangs that you need.

    ---
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  • Feb 23, 2013 10:35 am GMT
    tiornys posted...
    Frankly, most RPGs out there--not just FF games--have questionable balance.


    Perfect balance would make for the most boring, stale experience in gaming. While I get what you say about early game-breaking things, lets not put balance in an altar as The One thing developers should be looking for. In fact, a lot of game designers mess around with balance on purpose to make the experiences more dynamic. That's why when you get an item from a chest, for a while that item makes you stronger-than-average, and then it falls back. If the game was perfectly balanced, you'd only upgrade along the enemies' upgrade which means the dynamic of battles would always be stale, a new sword would mean you just matched your attack to the new enemies defense to be as effective as you were in the last area.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 10:51 am GMT
    CNash posted...
    The key to disc 1 Lionheart would appear to be the Grendel encounter in the forest near Galbadia Garden, which I'm fairly certain is a design oversight - the encounter settings from the clifftop bleeding over very slightly into the forest below, which is apparently an issue with most of the other clifftop areas of the game.

    So in that respect, I don't believe that the developers planned for it to be obtainable on disc 1 at all. It's just sheer luck that Grendels happen to appear in that overspilled encounter area, providing the Dragon Fangs that you need.


    That's true.

    However its still relevant that the weapon itself doesn't make the game overpowered (unless you manage to get the finisher every single time) and you can still gain all but Irvine's final weapons on disc 1 as well (although they don't come with a super unreliable finisher so they only give the strength/hit bonuses).
    ---
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  • Feb 23, 2013 1:41 pm GMT
    ferdk16 posted...
    tiornys posted...
    Frankly, most RPGs out there--not just FF games--have questionable balance.


    Perfect balance would make for the most boring, stale experience in gaming. While I get what you say about early game-breaking things, lets not put balance in an altar as The One thing developers should be looking for. In fact, a lot of game designers mess around with balance on purpose to make the experiences more dynamic. That's why when you get an item from a chest, for a while that item makes you stronger-than-average, and then it falls back. If the game was perfectly balanced, you'd only upgrade along the enemies' upgrade which means the dynamic of battles would always be stale, a new sword would mean you just matched your attack to the new enemies defense to be as effective as you were in the last area.


    FFIV DS sort of pulled this maneuver, and it has become a far less memorable experience as a result. FFIV on the SNES was super easy, but the scaling didn't exactly render the game milquetoast as the DS iteration does.

    As folks have said, disc 1 Lionheart only brings an okay-ish boost to Str (easily eclipsed by several spells very readily available) an an unreliable finishing move whic might occur on occasion 1/4 of the time that you even get a finisher, and by that time, Zell could have Armageddon Fist'd most any boss to Hell, back again, then to the soccer complex downtown to pick up the kids after practice.

    Heck, even at level 7, with 100 Triples and Str+60% with the Revolver, Squall can waste just about everything in 1-2 regular attacks through the first two discs, rarely even needing a Renzokuken, much less the Lionheart. And that's just Squall going solo...
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  • Feb 23, 2013 3:04 pm GMT
    FF8 can be as balanced or as broken as you want to make it. The truth is that many JRPG's can be broken early on in the game so as to make the rest of the game a cakewalk.

    Were the developers aware of how broken you could make this game? I'm absolutely sure they were aware; heck, they probably did it a bit themselves just for kicks. I've run across FF8 detractors that insist that the devs meant for players to power game their way through and that's why FF8 isn't a good game. I see it from the other end: the devs left it open to the player to make it as hard or as easy as the player wants.

    I'm not huge on power gaming my way through a game until I've played it once or twice in the 'normal' fashion. Subsequent playthroughs are usually done for the purpose of "hey, I wonder if I can do this" or something similar.
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  • Feb 23, 2013 3:59 pm GMT
    pure mind games posted...
    From: tiornys | #002
    I don't call this complexity, I call it questionable development.

    Yes, it's obviously the developers fault you have no self control


    Yeah, it's kind of cool to break a game

    It's called Power Levelling


    but I appreciate it more when the developers actually balance a game well.

    If you stop using No Encounters and getting high end spells at level 7, you'll notice it's as perfectly balanced as any other Final Fantasy.


    granted, i certainly disagree with the idea that Lionheart on disc1 breaks the game, but of course we all know there are quite a few other ways to break this game.

    and my main point is that with all the availability of methods to overpower to godlike extremes, it's not exactly right to put it all on a player's self control.

    a game designer's job is to give the p layer tools to use at their own whim and desire, and a good game designer should know how to balance what the player can do with said tools (within reason. the game shouldn't have total control over you, but it should establish a sense of reason and balance and not be completely moldable like clay to whatever godlike power you want to attain at any moment). the fact of the matter is that while all FFs past a certain point are guilty of the problematic game design issues of being able to break the game in obnoxious ways (and i certainly fault them all for it and don't praise their design for these aspects) FF8 is the only one where you can overpower yourself (while not even powerleveling) in the very first area you have access to random battles, and technically you can do it with just 3 or 4 battles with enough drawing.

    yeah you can fault the player for it since nobody's making them overpower, but the fact is the game designers put those tools there and made them easy to use towards those purposes, and should also be criticized for this decision.
  • Feb 23, 2013 4:46 pm GMT
    to put it another way, gamebreaking abilities aren't totally bad, but it's how they're implemented.

    imagine if in Sonic 2 and 3, you could acquire all 7 chaos emeralds within the first level just by knowing how.
    Super Sonic breaks the game, but in order to get access to transforming into him, you have to collect all 7 emeralds across multiple levels/acts. not only do you have to play a decent distance into the game in order to access it, but it takes a lot of skill. you might fail a bonus stage 3 or 4 times before succeeding, and that's just 1/7 bonus levels you need to complete in order to get the emeralds. even if you know exactly what you have to do in order to get them, you still need enough skill and practice at the game before you actually succeed.

    yes, you have the option to break the game and make yourself into Zeus himself, but it's a reward for kicking *** at playing the game and practicing it and playing it often. when you're blasting through levels as Super Sonic destroying every enemy you encounter at super speed and being invulnerable to attacks and spikes and jumping gaps you could never jump before, you know you earned that power and feel excited about it, and you remember for decades the feeling of finally reaching that point.

    in 8, it takes no finesse or strategy or practice in order to break it. you can be a first time player, and if you know how the junction system works (IE, you payed attention to the tutorial) and can grasp the concept that you can infinitely draw from enemies and read what the card mod ability is capable of, that's all you need and you get the reward of ultimate power. there's no risk before the reward, no investment besides a little time and repetition. it requires nothing of the player and therefore the power is near meaningless.
  • Feb 23, 2013 5:08 pm GMT
    Most people who broke the game on their first playthrough were using a guide. It's easy to break with the info handed to you. The first time I played it (Lord, I feel old) I was afraid to mod the rare cards 'cos I thought they'd be lost forever. LOL
    ---
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  • Feb 23, 2013 5:09 pm GMT
    manmouse posted...
    and read what the card mod ability is capable of


    Here's the problem with that logic. If you don't read guides you won't be card-modding the Quistis card at the beginning of the game on your first playthrough. Just because guides tell you how to do it and then replicating it is easy, doesn't mean it takes "no skill", it does take some exploration and knowledge, you just happened to cheat yourself that knowledge from others. The game's balance shouldn't be accounted for that.
    Those spells are a prize for those willing to explore the system. Same as getting Super Sonic in the 2nd zone by knowing where the bonuses are and doing the bonus levels in your first try (done it multiple times, not AS hard as it seems).
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  • Feb 23, 2013 5:21 pm GMT
    that's the thing though, i didn't mean read in a guide, i meant read on the game's screen where it says that you can mod cards into items. and if you look at other GF's abilities, you'll know they have ones that can mod items into magic. the connection is an A to B to C thought process which makes it pretty obvious.

    all you have to do is look at what an ability says it does, and then you know. once you have card mod, you can just check out what items it will make your cards into, including your top notch cards. then you can just see what magic you can make out of those items, and it's obvious the valuable cards will become valuable items, which will of course make super powered magic, leading to super powered characters.

    in fairness, some of the cards do take some skill to get if you have to win them in the card game, which is actually the most balanced part of the gameplay. but some others are just rewards for defeating enemies and bosses, which won't be hard since a first timer can again simply get OP by just drawing for a long time from enemies beforehand. and again, if a player uses tools given to them by the designer, i hardly fault the player for playing the game within the established rules (the exclusion being actual cheat codes, since those are accepted as being outside the established rules and design)
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