http://news.yahoo.com/playstation-4-games-warn-ps-style-surveillance-135426994.html kinda reminds me of how MS' kinect may work on the "720" I keep seeing one too many reasons to oppose both systems
Kevin VanOrd and Martin Gaston go head to head on whether or not the PlayStation 4 announcement was a success.
The PlayStation Meeting: Sony's Confident Approach to the PS4
by Kevin VanOrd, Senior Editor Follow
"Cautious optimism." It's a phrase I believe in, and it's the state of mind I embraced in anticipation of Sony's PlayStation 4 announcement. Assume the worst, and you risk being cynical; assume the best, and you lose your critical eye and risk sycophancy. And so I tried to shed any expectation and let Sony say its piece--and happily, my optimism regarding the PS4 continues. The PlayStation Meeting was a winner, presenting relevant information, announcing important games and partnerships, and making me anxious to learn more about the console. Let's break down what made the PlayStation Meeting such a success.
The Message Was About Games And Gaming
We've all rolled our eyes at one time or another when a major console manufacturer takes the stage, only to talk about features that seem least relevant to our interests as game players. Sony and Microsoft both have positioned their current consoles as general entertainment machines. Netflix, ESPN, YouTube, Twitter, Bing--all of these products have taken center stage at presentations, prompting many of us to ask: what about the games?
Certainly Sony didn't abolish all talk of peripheral functionality; Netflix was name-dropped a few minutes into the conference, after all, and there was discussion of music and movie services. But the features receiving the lion's share of attention were about the games, the way we access and interact with them, and the way we share the gaming experience with others.
Innovation Beyond Gimmicks
I am not prepared to call motion controls a fad--and certainly, Sony isn't either; Media Molecule's Move-focused presentation was proof enough of that. But Sony's most interesting announcements were about features that, for me, make games more enjoyable and more social. "Social" is a scary word: it brings to mind Facebook walls and Twitter feeds loaded with extraneous information on people's gaming habits--habits I don't really care about. Sony's proposed PS4 features, however, appeal greatly to me. As someone who enjoys live-streaming games and sharing the play experience with others, being able to share live game video directly from the console is an enormous step forward, and it's a feature I dreamed of years ago. And if I'm having trouble with a difficult boss (perhaps in Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes?), I love the idea of inviting a friend to watch, offer tips, and take over and try it for himself if I feel particularly stuck.
This is "social" that makes sense.
Beyond social, we heard about other intriguing features--features that meant fewer obstacles between you and the games you love, not more obstacles. Suspending and resuming a game right where you left off without having to load a save? Convenient and sensible. Playing a digital game shortly after beginning the download, while the rest downloads in the background? Wonderful. Remote Play is the icing on the cake, though of course, its value rests on whether you own a PlayStation Vita. But if Sony accomplishes its goal--to ultimately make every PS4 game playable on the Vita--the promise of curling up in bed with your favorite PS4 games in the palm of your hand might be difficult for many players to resist.
These aren't gimmicks. These are great uses of technology to make your gaming experience better and more convenient. The PlayStation 4 Eye and the controller touch screen are all variations on the more familiar "gimmicks" we practically take for granted in the current technological climate, but Sony didn't greatly elaborate on these features, choosing instead to showcase technology more interesting to the core market.
A new Killzone was inevitable. That it is gorgeous was also inevitable. But Killzone: Shadow Fall was also one of the most important games Sony presented, because we want to know: just how powerful is this console? Shadow Fall proved that it was pretty damn powerful, but if that game didn't convince you, DriveClub probably did. (Car porn at its finest, there.) The graphics enthusiasts among us saw what we needed: top-notch visual technology. The question remains: were these games actually running on PS4 development hardware? Console manufacturers are known to mislead, misdirect, and flat-out lie. Presuming what we saw was actual footage, I'm happy to see glimpses of next-generation visuals. And given how much progress we've seen during the current generation, what we saw is likely the tip of the iceberg.
Of course, many players would suggest that the current generation is already as visually advanced as is necessary. We want more than photorealism from our games, after all: we want them to be fun, or immersive, or emotionally stimulating, or thought-provoking, or all of the above. We're interested in different types of experiences, and Sony seems fully aware of that interest. Jonathan Blow's presentation was key, here: Sony wants indie developers as well as big-budget devs on board.
Important, too, was Media Molecule's charming presentation, which garnered more than a few "What the hell was that?" reactions on my Twitter feed, but I felt in tune with what the Little Big Planet developer was doing: bringing us a vast suite of creation tools that utilized 3D space. The PlayStation 4 will have games like Bungie's always-connected shooter Destiny, Blizzard's action RPG Diablo III, Ubisoft's ambitious action/espionage game Watch_Dogs, and open-world superhero game inFamous: Second Son. The games we saw at the conference represent diversity, but the kind of diversity appealing to Sony's most loyal audience.
What was missing? Games and services core gamers don't care about. We didn't have to suffer through another Wonderbook-type presentation, or a kid-friendly minigame compilation showcased by impossibly happy, cleanly-scrubbed families wearing manufactured smiles. Sony knew who its audience was, and didn't ruminate on frivolities. The conference was long, but it didn't waste my time.
Well, maybe that's not entirely true. Square Enix certainly wasted my time by showing a tech demo they'd already presented at E3, and then announcing… that they would be announcing something at this year's E3. Square continually squanders its rapidly diminishing goodwill in every possible way, and this particular shenanigan was insulting.
Even beyond Square's lack of respect for its audience, there's something else troubling me: no backwards compatibility. I expect that this could change, particularly given the Gaikai partnership. The hardware may not be backwards compatible, but if the console could identify my PS3/PS2/PS1 discs, perhaps those games could be streamed via Gaikai. Ultimately, I still own a PS3 and PS2; a lack of backwards compatibility doesn't prevent me from playing and accessing the games I already own. But Sony is making decisions meant to improve player convenience--and what could be more convenient than playing all of my PlayStation products on a single machine?
Then again, we can't have all of the things, all of the time, and I remain skeptical that Sony can deliver on every promise they made--not because I believe they aren't capable, but because features often get canceled or delayed in advance of a hardware launch. But I sincerely hope the PlayStation 4 we receive is the same PlayStation 4 we heard about on Wednesday, because it seems loaded with smart ideas that make me excited for the future.
Honestly, I don't mind buying the PS2 and PS1 games all over again if I can download them onto the PS4 system. I still have my PS2, and I'll be keeping my backwards compatible PS3 for as long as it keeps working.
Kevin, perhaps Gakai will work for you, as you live in a big city in the USA. I wonder how good it will work to the majority of PS customers that will suffer the lag for being too far from the servers. Personally, streaming will not work in my location. As such, Sony is offering a poor producte as the ps4 will not run all the software I already purchased from their service and will offer only a small upgrade in graphics. I will do better with my ps3, especially because it seems most developers will keep supporting it.
@Ronaldo27 The streaming will work very similar to how Netflix works on the console. As long as you subscribe to a remotely decent internet service, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
@Vodoo @Ronaldo27 until you realize that unlike Netflix, you have to take ping into account. You can have netflix streaming smoothly at 600 ping, you the viewer are not making inputs, just viewing content. It doesnt matter how long of a delay there is between content delivery and it appearing on your screen as long as it is all synced at the end. When you take into account that playing a game requires precision input from a controller, having even 20-50ms of delay on pushing a button or moving an analog stick and having that actually HAPPEN on screen can be extremely jarring. Just take for example how many people were up in arms over controller lag in killzone 2. Blogs were made, large gaming media companies like gamespot devoted whole pieces to the issue. Sites ran videos of high frame rate footage showing under 20ms delay between a controller press and the subsequent in game movement delay... and that was under 20ms. Imagine having to connect to a remote server where you are likely going to experience a minimum of 50 or so ping due to your location and distance from the content server. Then add in the small delay of transmitting to the TV and then add in the small 2-3 ms delay of input from the wireless controller. Suddenly something that works ... like say netflix, turns into an unresponsive mess of a game, especially in precision gaming like racing, shooters, etc. It doesn't matter your bandwidth, or how good it looks, what will make or break this technology, like OnLive before it, is ping and latency, and currently the only way to fix that is to have a large amount of dataservers available at all locations around any specific country, something that is expensive and unlikely to happen. Enjoy using Gaikai in say, Idaho.
@Vodoo @Ronaldo27 My local connection is fine but I live in South America, far from any Gakai server. Netflix service works fine because my AppleTV keep a memory cache to compensate any instability in the streaming. This will not work in a game as it will have to respond to the commands I will be inputing. The same problem will occur in most smaller cities all around the world. In the end, customers will have an uneven service that will work fine in some major centers but not everywhere else.
I really think the touch pad on the controller will be revolutionary. Imagine if you had this in sleeping dogs for all the safe cracking and hacking it would have been fun instead of annoying and clunky. Not sure how it works yet but if it accepts swipe gestures it could be used to navigate menus ect. which would also be much better than a clunky analog controller. As a xbox user right now I hope microsoft add a feture like this on their controller. I wouldnt be suprised if the d-pad becomes a touch pad on the xbox. If not I think it will be an epic fail on their part. Sitting on the fence for this generation so I leave it to them to impress me so far sony has my attention.
If you're not impressed with - Trying new games out for free instantly, taking a game over for a friend to help them, -downloading games in the background instantly/as you play them thus severely reducing/eliminating load times, -uploading game video with the press of a button. --Suspending and resuming a game without loading?- Remote play with vita, smart phones, tablets? - Something is wrong with you as a gamer. I didnt mention the touch pad or move or eye or social networking crap but the other AWESOME features some of you are pretending dont exist!
As far as Software, in what decade has Sony NOT delivered? By my count they once again had the most and best variety of exclusives over MS.
Square and Nintendo. Two companies that need to stop trying to relive their hay day. Get out there and CREATE!
@JukedSolid Well Nintendo is sort of the whole reason the kinect and move were created in the first place. Their hold on very large portion of otherwise untapped market (pretty much anybody could play the Wii) facilitated the growth of the motion control in modern gaming. At least that's how I see it ha ha. I totally see where you're coming from though.
@sknight175216 eye toy say hello
@sknight175216 @JukedSolid Yes, Nintendo is to blaim for the downfall of modern gaming. Sony & Microsoft saw how the Wii sold and tried to make their version of the Wii, while in the process completely ruining gaming for core gamers. Burn Nintendo, burn! But fear not... Nintendo will soon be making games for Sony & Microsoft.
@Vodoo Why blame Nintendo for the actions of Microsoft and Sony. They weren't forced by Nintendo to make motion controls, they simply wanted a piece of a successful market. That being said, how are motion controls ruining gaming?
The Playstation 4 showing did nothing at all to rouse my want to get their next system.
Ooh more Move no one asked for, more social interaction like Facebook no one asked for, sequels to established IPs and other games that are those IPs with different names that only the fanboys would ask for.
Next gen is already shaping up to be this gen but with more polygons, more higher definition of shades of brown and grey, and with much bigger budgets behind games; meaning the devs and pubs are going to whine all the time when their games dont hit the 5M sales quota just to break even.
Do I think the PS4 is impressive hardware wise? Sure, but I need to see more than brown and guns to be convinced that it is worth it.
Also, other than the Vita/PS4 connection, I thought the PS4 presentation was a MAJOR fail. The average gamer doesn't care about RAM. Doesn't care about teraflops of computing. All the technobabble, and then a few CGI cutscenes from games that aren't the major franchises (Killzone is close to a major franchise, but not quite there). Capcom had a chance to save it, but then showed some stupidly ridiculous knight thing. And what was with showing the old man for emotions? I couldn't see ANY emotion in that face. He looked like he just had a stroke. VERY Poor conference overall.
And Sony set the mood poorly too, by gifting random people $10 in the PSN store then thanking those people for their loyalty, but totally ignoring people who have spent hundreds in the PSN store, who have been registered as members since 2007. Sony pissed a LOT of people off, and sent them to the calming, loving embrace of Microsoft.
@tmarbleii Fuck off, fanboy.
@tmarbleii Only the ones that can afford to spend the most on PSN should get the random gifts then? It wouldnt be very random then, would it?
I assume that even some high spenders got random gifts. If they didn't, then Im with you.
And for the record, most of the game footage we saw was not CGI movies, they were actual ingame renderings, even though some of it was from scripted sequences.
What's wrong with kid-friendly minigames? I think that's an untapped audience for Sony, that they should try to get a piece of the action. I know MANY families that want a PS3 to unclutter their livingrooms (wii for gaming, roku for streaming, blu ray player for movies) but went with the wii because it has games for kids, whereas the PS3 only has Ratchet and Sly Cooper. Two games does not a family system make.
giant leap to nowhere ? is gamespot staff trolling ? Im not even playstation owner this gen because i felt ps3 didnt worth my money but damn im excited with ps4.
what else you wanted to hear mr martin ? Make you pizza and coffee while you playing ? I dont get you ...Is this a serious gamespot article i wonder...
I thought they did show us the tools available to create new ideas, which is more important than just showing 1 already made idea that could potentially serve as a limiting factor (companies thinking that yeah so thats what its for) instead.
* Live video stream: Bug report tool through youtube, taunt/annoy friends with kill shots on them, etc.
* Touch pad: A laptop style mouse for multiple uses , scroll a game map, adjust things in the UI, etc.
* Move light on the DualShock: adjust ingame view direction, and, err.. I cant think of anything else :p
Just some thoughts from 2 mins of thinking. Some compiled of ideas I saw others write.
Ofcourse, most of this is just gimmick ideas, and frankly I wouldnt know how any of it would translate in the real world when tested. I think the ideas of the live video stream and the laptop mouse cursor feature is the ones that could stick, but the Move thing kinda feels like a fun but pointless feature, possibly because im limited in what I already know about the usage of Move, which isnt much. And my lack of imagination with it ofcourse.
Man when people like Martin saying this is a GIANT LEAP TO NOWHERE , is a big statement there... Read Kevins article and you will understand what im saying .
To say a giant leap to nowhere to a console that provide some gimmicks controls that casuals love , a solid hardware for next gen games , way better architecture for developers , so many companies working already on PS4 games , show off some next-gen titles that coming on console ( even if are not the best , they are actually new games ) ... you calling this a GIANT LEAP TO NOWHERE ?!!
Is this martin guy forget that we are talking about CONSOLES and not PCs ? Consoles arent all about games ? If PS4 is a giant leap to nowhere with so many new optios for gamers what Wii U is then by MArtins logic ? A giant leap backwards?
Just go read Kevins article .. This martin guy is out of his mind. period. I cant think a single reason why PS4 should be GIANT LEAP TO NOWHERE ?!! Really ? Nowhere? Worst article i read in gamespot since 2004 i first came. And im not even a Sony fan to begin with.
Msfanboyspot.com Anything Sony is immediately bashed. Their system specs and technology are great and worthy to be excited about. That's the bottom line. MS will have a worse system and GS will sing it's praises because they like the powerpoint presentation better.
@judahstarguy Did you notice that there were two takes in this article? I spent the vast majority of my portion praising what we saw. Even Martin in his second opinion praised the hardware a great deal. I don't know what you're on about.
@judahstarguy I'm a fan of Sony products. Always have been. I think the PS3 was and is a great device. It was great when it came out and it's great now, not simply as a game system but as a media hub. If I only watch films on it I would still use it every day.
Their tech has always been great. But the shark has jumped due to an old way of thinking.
And I'm sorry. In today's world, a product announcement without a product is simply NOT exceptable. It just isn't.
@focuspuller I would consider this a product preview rather than announcment.
Why does it have to be black and white? We learnt a great deal of useful information about the system and it's possible features. IMO, it's better to get what we got rather than nothing until November when the product is final and ready for release. It gives developers and consumers a greal deal of time to take in and respond to it before the window is closed as far as input goes.
Frankly, how the console looks is much less important than what it does.
Square Enix could have been a bit wiser though with their announcement about announcing something later this year - that's just plain stupid.
@focuspuller well sounds about right we get announcements about announcements now, they're actually becoming quite frequent lately it seems
@CaptainGamespot I second that.
And I'm sorry, this is the second decade of the 21st Century. They really think talk is enough? Apple has shown a product at EVERY announcement since the mac. And ALL were shown working.
The emperor is not wearing any cloths.
"All games are downloadable". That's a deal. FYI: Do you know guys that I bought the ps3 thinking that was already true? That I could directly download games (so I don't have to search for the game I want from one mall to the other). When I learned it wasn't, I kept wondering what people do with the hard drive space of the ps3. The ps3 is some kind of freak machine. The PS4 is the real thing.
@nomailx Hehe, I discovered the same thing here. After browsing through PSN for a bit I realized that it was quite useless (to me) as a shop. DLC yes, everything else, not so much.
@vatorus Considering that this is an article about the PS4 and it's features, do you think that he should have just bashed it because it wasn't and xbox or pc, and write that it simply sucks even though he thinks otherwise?
At least they TRY to be objective as much as possible, instead of ruling it out based on comparisation with something that doesn't exist yet.
You yourself is most likely either a fanboy or a hater. Possibly both.
Some people should be forced to take a license to be able to connect to internet... sheesh.
@vatorus Did you notice above how I was called an MS fanboy? I wonder--do trolls cancel each other out? If we put people on opposite sides of the system war into a small room, is it like when you combine an acid and an alkaline? Would there be an explosion, and only a mess of water and salts left behind?
Correct me if i'm wrong, but wouldn't it be realistically improbable / impossible for PS4 to have backwards compatibility? Considering their new chips are now x86_64 architectures, wouldn't this mean a complete re-compile from the source code from PS3 games to actually work?
@skittzo_s pretty much.
@skittzo_s Correct, if you want to run the game native. Software emulation is not an option, because PS4 simply isnt fast enough.
However, Ive been thinking about this subject a bit, andthe only possible solution that I could come up with is if you create a true software emulator program (with 100% compbaility guaranteed), then recompile the game with that emulator and store the new game executable(s), so that it runs with native x64 code instead.
It could run with less overhead than a run-time software emulation, but Cell/RSX specific optimization would probably be lost in the process and most likely make the game run worse than the original. Also, system specific stuff for timing/synchronization, threads (multicore) and whatnot, could be major headaches to overcome.
It's not a small task to emulate a PS3. The older consoles is in a different league really, because they are much slower and less complicated.
@mike9876543210 @Eldeorn You sure? Sorry mate but you are incorrect in how threading works on a CPU. Threads on the AMD cpu is the same as they are on an intel, they are not executed at the same time. They share the core, running chunks/slices in a serial manner managed by the CPU itself. Each thread gets a certain ammount of time to run before next takes over. 64 actual parrarell threads is way off what current tech is capable of. Only one core each can execute code at the same time as the other 7.
The effect of multithreading on a single core LOOKS like they are running simultainiously, but they are in fact not.
@Eldeorn each of the ps4's cores can run 64 threads at a time so it can run a total of 512 threads of data at a speed of 1.8GBps
Indeed, its not eight true cores like the PS4 has. The SPE's can only run 1 thread each.
Im treading into unknown waters here a bit, but can modern cores execute more than one instruction at a time? (apart from certain code instructions that indeed are parrarell that is)
@Eldeorn@mike9876543210@skittzo_sanother fun fact. In November 2010 the Air Force Research Laboratory (AFRL) created a powerful supercomputer by connecting together 1,760 Sony PS3s which include 168 separate graphical processing units and 84 coordinating servers in a parallel array capable of performing 500 trillion floating-point operations per second (500 TFLOPS). As built the Condor Cluster was the 33rd largest supercomputer in the world and would be used to analyze high definition satellite imagery. considering the ps4 has been predicted to run at 1.84 TPLOPS, just over 300 ps4 connected together would be more powerful than 1,760 ps3's connected together.
@Eldeorn@mike9876543210@skittzo_sthe ps3 doesn have an eight core processor, it has a 3.2 GHz PowerPC based Power Processing Element with 6 accessible Synergistic Processing Elements, and a seventh runs the OS and security software. and the eith is to improve production yeilds. the ps3 can run at a maximum of 230.4 GFLOPS while the ps4 can run at a predicted 1.84 TPLOPS
@mike9876543210 @Eldeorn @skittzo_s because those 8 cores have to emulate another really fast and extremely different 8 core processor that is Cell. Plus it also has to emulate everything else on top of the CPU, including GPU calls (relay them) and the system specific stuff like OS calls, file system, and so on.
@skittzo_s most likely
If they are better than Sony's or not is something we will have to see later on obviously, but if Sony's new tools are as great as people claim them to be, MS do have their work cut out for them. I don't doubt that they will succeed though.
@Eldeorn@skittzo_sthe xbox's cpu is quite similar to the ps3's, it is based on an IBM PowerPC instruction set architecture, consisting of three independent processor cores on a single die. These cores are slightly modified versions of the PPE in the Cell processor used on the PlayStation 3. Each core has two symmetric hardware threads (SMT), for a total of six hardware threads available to games. Each individual core also includes 32 KiB of L1 instruction cache and 32 KiB of L1 data cache.
@skittzo_s@EldeornI don't really know much about how PowerPC on 360 differs from x86, but they are defenitly not the same. I've heard that PowerPC has a good ability to emulate other CPUs, but the other way around is another question. The GPU is an ATI (AMD), but according to sources on the web, DirectX11 is expected on the new one instead of the customized DX9 on 360.
Microsoft do have a tendency to never strip out old stuff in their Windows, so they might do the same with DirectX on the new one. Only speculations from my end though.
They might pull something out of their hat just to annoy Sony, but me personally wouldnt bet on it really. It still adds alot of overhead on the hardware, and are most likely not worth it for them. They suffer the same problems as Sony - they cant solve it with run-time emulation software alone.
@Eldeorn Thanks, I'm just going by my time in programming with C#, Java, Objective C etc. etc. and just to compile statically can take a long long time. I'm not very cluey about the architectures but after I heard PS4 will be using x86_64 cpus, it got me thinking about backwards compatibility and my own knowledge off programming and compiling (Because like on linux I compile for that cpu architecture). But this should be a win for elder scroll fans lol, considering with skyrim they said they were having trouble with the PS3's api's/sdk's etc. But i also guess this can give microsoft the advantage towards backwards compatibility though, I also guess they shouldn't have an excuse either?
@skittzo_s @Eldeorn @mike9876543210 @Baroni88 Aye, a common complaint and misconception - that PSN games is somehow different and easily transferable like they were some multiplatform builds already.
Your post is one of the few that actually reflects the reality we are facing from a realistic and logical standpoint. And a more educated one.
@mike9876543210 @Eldeorn @Baroni88 @skittzo_s Multiplatform titles might be a fair bit easier I believe. I'd guess that PS3 exclusive titles is another story though, since they probably don't have the code framework set up for porting to begin with.
Ofcourse, not all companies are keen to remake their old games to begin with unless it's very easy to do. They are too busy making new stuff.