About the ending... (SPOILERS, BIG ONES)

#1 Posted by Andrei_V (6 posts) -

Ok, so the ending is a play on the multiverese theory from quantum phisics, where every possible combination of an event, actually happens. For example we could have a parallel universe in which the roman empire never falls, Alexander the great never defeats Darius, etc. But it intoduces something new: constants. There will allways be a lighthouse, a city, a man with an idea, a girl, some guy to bring it all down, a scientist, etc...

So, at the point of the baptism, whatever Dewitt choses, in at least several universes he becomes Comstock and builds Columbia, in others, he joins the Pinkerton's and ,at least in one, he never goes to the baptism in the first place (the Anna that doesn't dissappear). Now, by killing Dewitt, you're destroying Columbia, but you're forgetting the constants. Another one will have to take Comstock's place and build a dystopia (''There is allways a lighthouse, there's allways a man, there's allways a city...''). You're not just taking the card out of the deck, you're also reshuffling the deck. So, basically, you're killing yourself on the chance that the guy replacing Comstock and builds the utopia, fares better than the prophet. 

But the chance of that happening seems very slim. So far, the track record for utopias that stay utopias is very crappy: Columbia was a heaven of racism and slavery, that comes crashing down or tries to enslave the world, Rapture turned its people into crazy murdering junkies. Who's to say that some other nut doesn't come along and starts the 2nd holocaust? You could say that in every universe where Comstock exists, millions die. Millions will die anyway: if it's not the inquisition it's the plague, if it's not the plague it's the crusaddes, if not the crusades then the world wars, etc.. Just because you stop one of these doesn't mean that the next one doesn't appear or that another one doesn't take it's place. So the suicide seems kinda pointless. Either way a new city is build and you're grasping straws that maybe it will be better. If it's not Rapture it's Columbia, if it's not Columbia it's ............ (insert name of city from sequal :D )

Maybe I'm looking at it the wrong way, but from this angle the ending kinda feels even emptier. IMO, either way, the ending falls flat and emotionless. The entire game is filled with emotion, and attachement to the 2 characters. But in the end, everything is reduced to an equation of quantum physics. Seems kinda 'meh''. Plus, the post credits scene is a bit too ''Inceptionesque''. 

Thoughts?

#2 Posted by xnef1025 (20 posts) -

This is true.  In the grand scheme of things, the idea of constants means that there will be another city, another man, another little girl, another protector; but the comfort to take from the end of Infinite is they won't be Booker and Anna DeWitt.

#3 Posted by dbzunlimited (198 posts) -

If there will always be a city and what not, is that the explantion of Rapture? Rapture exists in a world that never saw Columbia.

#4 Posted by Andrei_V (6 posts) -

Yeah, kinda understanding now, he's sacrificing himself for Anna, and in the end, in at least one universe they can be together. Well, this makes the ending a lot more interesting.

Rapture is a parallel universe to Columbia, one of many, it doesn't exist in the same universe as Columbia. Rapture was introduced as a way to ''franchise'' the series. They now have a backstory that links all the games togheter (there is allways a man, a city, etc...) and common elements (the utopia, the girl and the protector, the rebel, etc...). It's like Assassin's Creed, minus the overly long and mind-numbingly complicated Desmond story.

#5 Posted by Jooj (280 posts) -

I think the main threat was anna herself. The thing the twins were trying to avoid was them creating a being split between two worlds and destruction of the world and possible disintegration of the universe that followed.

#6 Posted by Andrei_V (6 posts) -

I think the Lutece's just wanted some payback at Comstock (the whole murdering them and getting away with it probably pissed them off a bit) and they were probably feeling guilty over what happened to Anna (they were aided Comstock).

#7 Posted by BioAssassin (152 posts) -

What i'm thinking is Andrew Ryan was a citizen of Columbia and wanted a world/city better than Columbia. Near Columbia's destruction he manages to escape and thats when the whole Rapture part starts. There has to be a reason why this game is set in the year 1912 and not after the Rapture era which is the 1960s. 

#8 Posted by Argle (297 posts) -

I think the main threat was anna herself. The thing the twins were trying to avoid was them creating a being split between two worlds and destruction of the world and possible disintegration of the universe that followed.

Jooj

thats intriguing, although i dont remember them explaining it in-game.  i thought the motivation was the Letuces's wanted payback and because in all the Columbia universes, Elizabeth gets tortured and destroys the world. 

#9 Posted by Torino818 (149 posts) -

The thing that Elizabeth and Booker were trying to prevent was Comstock from steamrolling over all universes with Elizabeth's powers and the siphon.  He would have used her powers to not only conquer his own universe but all other universes he could find and as we saw from what little meddling Elizabeth and Booker did that would not have turned out very well for anyone.  So they went to the one point that Comstock was created from the baptism, remember all universes exist simultaneously and then diverge from each other.  So untill the baptism both Comstock and Booker were the same and then it diverges in a Back to the Future style meaning the only way to interact with the other universe is to cross through tears and risk perment brain damage or death or go back to where they both existed naturally together and destroy them both (I say both but it could in fact be an infinte number of universes I use two for simplicity).

#10 Posted by Andrei_V (6 posts) -

I think Booker's main motivation was to undo what happened to Anna. Even if they prvented the creation of Columbia, another city would have taken it's place (the constants). But by preventing the creation of Comstock, at least in some universes, Anna doesn't get sold, and they just continue living.

#11 Posted by Jooj (280 posts) -

[QUOTE="Jooj"]

I think the main threat was anna herself. The thing the twins were trying to avoid was them creating a being split between two worlds and destruction of the world and possible disintegration of the universe that followed.

Argle

thats intriguing, although i dont remember them explaining it in-game.  i thought the motivation was the Letuces's wanted payback and because in all the Columbia universes, Elizabeth gets tortured and destroys the world. 



 the lucetes are not dead. In an infinite number of universes we will all be murdered and tortured by an infinite number of criminals so it does not make sense.

Clues in game:

[spoiler] tears happen all over the place that allow fink to copy vigors possibly from a rapture like place, and he also copies the handymen His version of big daddies?). His brother copies music hence the reason we hear "girls just wanna have fun", "everybody wants to rule the world".

We have evidence that something happens to make the twins "all one person" united with their other selves. We hear that lucete ponders whether it is because elizabeth is split between worlds that she develops strange powers (something she indirectly caused and feels responsible for). We see slate who is convinced that comstock was not at the boxer rebellion despite so much evidence to the contrary. Is he from another world or has he like many others absorbed memories from another world? Also we know comstock claims to be able to see all possible futures and all possible eventualities and that all lead to the destruction of the world by elizabeth.

Despite the fact that comstock seems to recognise that armageddon is inevitable because of his religious beliefs he does half welcome it ... believing it to be from diving origin. That said he does seem to have worked with the twins, at least originally, to develop the syphon and hold off dooms day a little longer, for some reason. Perhaps things got a little hairy in the early days of elizabeth? I also think events and his contact with other worlds may have made him a little insane, like slate. Though there is also the possibility that he and the twins made the syphon before hand knowing what the effects of the child might be (though how could they have known the finger would be lost) and made it before she arrived.

Anna is not tortured for no reason - at one point it is clearly stated they are trying to stop her opening tears by implanting a device that shocks her every time she tries to.  [/spoiler] ^ click here to show spoiler text


#12 Posted by 1dyingbraincell (5 posts) -

We see slate who is convinced that comstock was not at the boxer rebellion despite so much evidence to the contrary. Is he from another world or has he like many others absorbed memories from another world?

Jooj

There's a very simple explanation for that. When the boxer rebellion happened Comstock was still Booker.

#13 Posted by macca366 (784 posts) -
My thoughts are why would that even matter to you? It doesn't make the ending empty to me at all. Whats important are the characters and the relationship Booker and Elizabeth have developed through the game, what matters is that Booker remembers his daughter, got to know her, and with the "Inceptionesque" post-credits scene, is possibly given a chance to have the relationship with his daughter he never had. Thats what matters, and was on my mind. Not the sequel.
#14 Posted by meno_2811 (3 posts) -
to whom had Booker sold Anna the first time - before Comstock existence - and made him stay 20 years in grief and then did the baptism ?? cause I don't get it as he " Booker Dewitt " had sold Anna to the " coming from the future Comstock " the first time , as Comstock hadn't yet existed ??
#15 Posted by IH8H8H8ers (665 posts) -

to whom had Booker sold Anna the first time - before Comstock existence - and made him stay 20 years in grief and then did the baptism ?? cause I don't get it as he " Booker Dewitt " had sold Anna to the " coming from the future Comstock " the first time , as Comstock hadn't yet existed ??meno_2811

It was never future Comstock. The Booker/Comstock split takes place before the birth of Anna.

#16 Posted by Dragorro (1269 posts) -
rapture will take Columbia's place in all universes now and be the main legendary city for the next game hopefully something new happens and both enemy types from both games converge in rapture causing chaos.
#17 Posted by serbian_swag (1 posts) -
There is one thing that doesn't add up. How does Booker and Comstock coexist in the same universe? In one dimension Comstock is created at the baptism in the other Booker stays the same because he wusses out. And based on the first universal jump, it shows men that Booker killed being alive again. Which means that you would "adapt" to the universe you're in. So this should be applicable to Booker/Comstock. When one or the other switches into the universe the other is from, he should turn into the form belonging to the universe. IDK, none of it makes sense. IMO the game, which is still amazing, is highly flawed since I personally believe inter-dimensional travel is impossible.
#18 Posted by meno_2811 (3 posts) -
you mean the baptism is before Anna's birth ?? so why hadn't Comstock took Anna with him ?? and why had he travelled to Booker universe to have her ??
#19 Posted by meno_2811 (3 posts) -

[QUOTE="meno_2811"]to whom had Booker sold Anna the first time - before Comstock existence - and made him stay 20 years in grief and then did the baptism ?? cause I don't get it as he " Booker Dewitt " had sold Anna to the " coming from the future Comstock " the first time , as Comstock hadn't yet existed ??IH8H8H8ers

It was never future Comstock. The Booker/Comstock split takes place before the birth of Anna.

[QUOTE="meno_2811"]to whom had Booker sold Anna the first time - before Comstock existence - and made him stay 20 years in grief and then did the baptism ?? cause I don't get it as he " Booker Dewitt " had sold Anna to the " coming from the future Comstock " the first time , as Comstock hadn't yet existed ??IH8H8H8ers

It was never future Comstock. The Booker/Comstock split takes place before the birth of Anna.

you mean the baptism is before Anna's birth ?? so why hadn't Comstock took Anna with him ?? and why had he travelled to Booker universe to have her ??
#20 Posted by stev69 (114 posts) -

But if the nexus point is the baptism, this being the point at which timeline tangents are created then that one decision will shape whether the paralell universe are created in the first place, if you alter that decision so that Booker doesnt become Comstock then the alternate time line constants are never created.

#21 Posted by RedLegZeff (12 posts) -

Something that bugged me, the lutece's talked a lot about certain things about time, about it not necessarily being linear. Was, is, will be. So there is no changing time. In multiverse theory in many sources, you can have a universe that is offset, so the future elizabeth is just another parallel universe you wandered into, not really the future( this is why a multiverse is used in a lot of time travel stuff, to avoid paradox's). The multiverse also includes every possible outcome. So there would be another set of elizabeths that don't drown booker. Incidentally she also talks about how she felt betrayed by her father in the future universe. Just saying, I don't think the ending was changing time. I think elizabeth just wanted to kill her father for her betrayal. Afterwards the elizabeths went back to their own universes(their disappearing, I don't think she needs tears to move anymore. She can appear in front of the door when she was behind you with no tear). As there were other bookers near the lighthouses...I think an infinite number of elizabeths are getting revenge. A bit of a darker reading, but the only one that fits with the games theories on time travel and multiverse.

#22 Posted by GameYakuza (81 posts) -

I have a few shortcomings about the story:

 

- it is stated that comstock is sterile, how would a baptism make one so?

- what makes anna so special (powers and all) to begin with? the fact that she is from another dimension?

- since there would be no columbia in de witt's world, how did he end up in a world where it does? the twins?

- if so, what is their motivation to set the game's events in motion?

- the plot implies there is another de witt in each world, would'nt there be another elizabeth, especially since de witt died in the last world they visit?

 

I guess the plot implies that for each comstock world, there is one de witt world, and the game events cause them to collide and self destruct, leaving only the worlds where de witt never sold his daughter.

#23 Posted by eyobspot (131 posts) -

The baptism doesn't make someone sterile. From what I understand that's because of all the unknown radiation emitted from the experiments from the lab twins.

She wasn't born special. When Comstock send Letice to get Anna she didn't completely make it safe to the other dimension. Her little pinky was sliced so she now 'lived' in multiple dimensions. This apparently gave her the ability to create and open rifts.

#24 Posted by Murazor (117 posts) -

The thing that Elizabeth and Booker were trying to prevent was Comstock from steamrolling over all universes with Elizabeth's powers and the siphon.  He would have used her powers to not only conquer his own universe but all other universes he could find and as we saw from what little meddling Elizabeth and Booker did that would not have turned out very well for anyone.  So they went to the one point that Comstock was created from the baptism, remember all universes exist simultaneously and then diverge from each other.  So untill the baptism both Comstock and Booker were the same and then it diverges in a Back to the Future style meaning the only way to interact with the other universe is to cross through tears and risk perment brain damage or death or go back to where they both existed naturally together and destroy them both (I say both but it could in fact be an infinte number of universes I use two for simplicity).

Torino818
I don't know that there's anything in the game to indicate that Comstock planned to conquer all dimensions. He was at peace with his own death, it seemed, and was much more focused on the Sodom Below in his world than anything else. If there's something in the game to indicate otherwise, please correct me!
#25 Posted by TheAdipose (4 posts) -

I have a few shortcomings about the story:

 

- it is stated that comstock is sterile, how would a baptism make one so?

- what makes anna so special (powers and all) to begin with? the fact that she is from another dimension?

- since there would be no columbia in de witt's world, how did he end up in a world where it does? the twins?

- if so, what is their motivation to set the game's events in motion?

- the plot implies there is another de witt in each world, would'nt there be another elizabeth, especially since de witt died in the last world they visit?

 

I guess the plot implies that for each comstock world, there is one de witt world, and the game events cause them to collide and self destruct, leaving only the worlds where de witt never sold his daughter.

GameYakuza
1. Its not the baptism. Its the amount of time he spends studying the tears caused by the lutece field. This is always what causes his cancer and aging 2. She exists in 2 dimensions. Her finger is in one and she is in the other. This gives her the ability to cause tears. 3. The male lutece decides that comstock/liz must be stopped so they go to another universe to fetch booker. You can tell this because they are the ones transporting him to the lighthouse. You also see briefly at the end him being pulled across. He doesnt remember this because his memory is being rewritten as he travels across 4. Their motivation is to stop new york being bombed by columbia by liz in 1984(?). 5. Yes - and this would appear to potentially be one of the games plotholes. We have 2 bookers but not 2 elizabeths. However the counter argument could be that she is unique and survives across dimensions in a similar way to the luteces.
#26 Posted by GameYakuza (81 posts) -

for me, the major plothole is that the twins are clearly omnipotent and yet go through a convoluted scheme to achieve their goal.