The Last of Us and Grading on the Gender Curve

The Last of Us tells its story well, but that story is yet another take on the all-too-common tale of a violent, brooding male hero whose character development is fueled by the violent deaths of women.

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SPOILER WARNING: This feature discusses major plot details of The Last of Us.

Since The Last of Us was released, there's been a fair amount of admiring discussion about the female characters who populate its world. To an extent, this is understandable. After all, unlike the women in so many games, these women aren't idealized or sexualized. They're haunted by the things they've been through. They're morally conflicted and sympathetic. However, simply presenting women as people is hardly something that should be considered incredibly praiseworthy. Rather, it's the bare minimum that we should expect from our narratives. To shower a game with praise for doing the minimum is to set the bar extremely low.

In his piece "Sexism sells? The Last of Us begs to differ" for Edge, Jason Killingsworth writes, "It's depressing that mainstream games have such an atrocious record with portrayals of women that simply writing your game's female characters in a humane fashion warrants congratulatory slaps on the back." I agree with this. However, I feel that Killingsworth then makes the mistake of proceeding to overpraise The Last of Us. The game hardly, as he puts it, "feeds the prevailing design manual for male videogame protagonists into an industrial wood chipper." Joel is yet another emotionally distant white male protagonist, one in a long, long line of such characters.

Simply presenting women as people is hardly something that should be considered incredibly praiseworthy. Rather, it's the bare minimum that we should expect from our narratives.
The Last of Us begins with a powerful sequence in which Joel's daughter Sarah dies violently. It's handled well, and it hits hard, but it also establishes The Last of Us as a story that operates within the same template as stories like God of War and Max Payne, stories about men whose lives are forever changed by the deaths of women and girls they care about and feel a responsibility to protect. Joel is the central character here, and as is so often the case in games, the life of a girl is spent in the narrative to fuel his development, setting in motion the character arc that gives the story of The Last of Us its shape.

Joel's sometimes-partner Tess is a fascinating character. She's experienced and tough; she feels things but has learned to bury her feelings and do what needs doing. I would have liked the chance to get to know her better. Ask yourself what this game might have been like if Tess had been the central character, and Joel had filled the role that Tess fills here. That would have brought the game a step closer to "subvert[ing] the traditional male power fantasy," as Killingsworth claims The Last of Us does. Instead, Tess becomes another casualty of the narrative, another woman who, like Sarah and so many video game women, dies to push the story forward.

This narrative structure that focuses on the character arc of a violent, brooding man often calls for women to die (or be otherwise lost) to move that arc along, and you cannot subvert this long-standing video game tradition while working within its confines and going along with its requirements. Far from subverting the typical game narrative about violent men, The Last of Us reinforces the notion that stories about men are more valuable and meaningful than stories about women, and that women are often important not so much for being fully-fledged people in their own right, but for what they--and often, what their deaths--mean to the men of the world.

As Chris Suellentrop writes in the New York Times review of the game, "Perhaps it is unfair to visit the sins of the medium upon a work as well made as this one," and indeed, it isn't the fault of this one game that this particular narrative pattern has become so overused. But it's also not as if this is the story The Last of Us had to tell; there's a tremendous diversity of potential stories that continue to go untold as games fall back on this particular template time and time again, so it also doesn't make sense to applaud it as a progressive portrayal of women in games.

We've let our notions of what's possible become limited by what's available. Instead, we need to evaluate games and how they handle gender based on their actual merits, not in relation to other games.
Of course, the most important relationship in The Last of Us is that between Joel and Ellie, and yes, Ellie is a great character. Over the course of the game's long journey, you find yourself invested in the connection that develops between these two people. But let's not kid ourselves about the nature of this relationship. Joel is the hero on a quest; like Frodo carrying the One Ring to Mount Doom, Joel must deliver Ellie to the Fireflies. Like the Ring to Frodo, Ellie sometimes gets Joel out of a jam. She also sometimes gets him into jams, and regularly slows him down--something you're reminded of each time you have to help her cross water.

Ellie, like all the women in the game, is important less in and of herself and more because of the impact that she has on Joel's life. It's because of the meaning she takes on for him that he feels compelled to make the decisions that give the ending its power. You do play as Ellie for a time, but in the end, this is still the story of how Joel is changed by his experiences. As Keith Stuart puts it in his Guardian piece "The Last of Us, Bioshock: Infinite and why all video game dystopias work the same way," "People who argue that The Last of Us is as much Ellie's story as Joel's might be correct in a pure narrative context, but in terms of identification and raw experience, we're with Joel all the way."

There's nothing wrong with stories about men, and how they are changed by the things they go through. But these stories about men--usually white men, usually violent men, often angry or emotionally distant men, whose lives are impacted by the violent deaths of women--are so prevalent in games today, and you can't tell such a story while simultaneously subverting the framework these stories follow, at least not if you adhere to that framework as closely as The Last of Us does. If we grade its handling of women on a curve relative to other games, The Last of Us is a success. It's somewhat better than most of what's out there. But we've let our notions of what's possible become limited by what's available. Instead, we need to evaluate games and how they handle gender based on their actual merits, not in relation to other games. We need to smash that curve with a sledgehammer.

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Discussion

2195 comments
jackkan82
jackkan82

 Sometimes I wonder what all it would take to satisfy a feminist.  It's as if they dedicate their entire lives to finding every single possible point to be angry about and blame on society/men.


I love women and there are millions of women in our country doing great things and leading happy lives.  The thing they have in common, though, is that they're not angry feminists obsessed with fault-finding.


"...The Last of Us reinforces the notion that stories about men are more valuable and meaningful than stories about women..."

Umm. No. Just no.  


You can't accuse me of devaluing pizza just because I decided to make a hamburger instead of pizza.  If you want there to be more pizza, go start making pizza.  Don't yell at me to make pizza instead of hamburger because you're sick of hamburgers.


If you know that women are smart, beautiful, and just as valuable as men are, you have no reason to raise a fit about there not being enough video game stories centered on women.


nneverknowsbest
nneverknowsbest

I also have to severely disagree with this article, and here's why:

Firstly, in terms of being a male power fantasy, examine the evidence. Joel is far from heroic in the beginning. Note how Sarah wants to do the right thing and rescue the people on the road, he refuses, because he is unwilling to risk the thing he cares about for others. Before tragedy occurs, he is already a selfish man, his daughter the humane one of the three of them. Added to the fact, this delay could have saved her life. Secondly, examine the Joel and Tess relationship. In every decision, in every moment he defers to her, she is the one who knows their business, she kept them afloat and she likely kept them alive. Both in gameplay and in story, she saves him numerous times. Third, Ellie's usefulness is contained by Joel's own ideas on protection, at least initially. As soon as Joel lets go of the patriarchal fantasy of protection, she is ridiculously helpful, she gets your back in firefights, calls out warnings, pushes him forward and drags him to safely later on, even allying herself with someone she knows is iffy at best to save Joel's life. Note the scene with David at the end, does Ellie need Joel to save her? No, she fights her own battles, volunteers her own safety for the good of humanity and protects those around her.

Is this a story about how Joel is changed? No. As I mentioned before, Joel starts off not risking the people he loves, and ends up doing the same with far worse consequences. He clings to one person after another for meaning, first his wife, who leaves him, then his daughter, who dies, then Tess, then Ellie. He is incapable of facing the world himself and one suspects his wife had good cause for leaving. His daughter, who he never spent much time with anyway, is left to fend for herself in the evenings because daddy 'needs to provide'. He even drives his own brother away for unspecified reasons, yet likely his own dickishness. Let's examine Ellie's arc... she's passed around so much that she has no idea of what is normal. It's clear she's initially grabbing for parental figures everywhere, yet in the meantime she learns to fend for herself. So first she has Riley, then Marlene, then Tess, then Joel, then also Sam. She watches most of these die, even takes at least a few human lives. She experiences loss on a magnitude beyond Joel's comprehension, yet she never lets it destroy who she is, because she knows deep down, that even if her greatest fear is ending up alone, that she can make it by herself. Personally, I believe it's a fundamental misreading of the final scene to state that she is willing to accept Joel's lie. She already knows the truth, if not, why not ask Joel little questions, or try to trip him up? Instead, she challenges him head on, in effect asking "Are you willing to treat me like an adult, or will I always be your little girl who you feel you need to protect?" He answers to the latter. In that moment she realises with the 'okay' that she can't stay with him, she finally clicks to the fact that he does not respect her opinions or choices, and thus knows that she has to face her worst fear or never grow up. She has to make her own decisions, because these parental figures she previously clung to, will all deny her that right.

In this world, the male protagonist considers it his job to protect the girl, damning the world to hell and killing innocent(ish) people in the process, he is a monster. The female protagonist, meanwhile, is willing to risk her life, her happiness and her future for the benefit of people she never will meet. Notice that Sarah, Tess and Marlene all share that view: all of them female. Conversely, the male characters selfishly cling on to what they want. Joel won't sacrifice anything, nor will Tommy. Even Bill won't risk his and his partners safety for a shot at improving their lives, a choice which leads to the suicide of one of them and leaves the other in a hermetic existence.

Now tell me again how the men are the heroes...

R3FURBISHED
R3FURBISHED

That sells Ellie so short that it is downright pathetic. Ellie who is the whole reason you are playing the game who is (literally) the most important thing in the game in every aspect.

Maybe you just doesn't realize this is Joel's story that he is the protagonist, but Ellie is the reason we care the reason we play. Without Ellie there is no game, no purpose, nothingness. An empty void.

I didn't care for Ellie as much as I wanted to (I wanted another Clementine) but it is undeniable that Ellie is the only reason you finish the game. Joel's sole existence is Ellie and he relies solely on her.

His proof is that he condemned the world to eternal damnation because of her and would do it everyday for the rest of his life in order to spend one more day with her.

Odissius-MG
Odissius-MG

Seriously, you shouldn'be working with games, you clearly don't understand them. Everything you write is about LGBT, women rights, bla bla bla and how games don't fit in your "rules". 

StockpileThomas
StockpileThomas

WTF Carolyn?

If you play the game it's glaringly obvious that Joel is fueled by many things most of all survival and the death of his daughter. To turn round and use the death of his child as a way to strike out at sexism is pathetic to say the least. You aren't doing feminism any justice here at all, with all the games that actually are sexist you pick this one, a game which treats both sexes in a incredibly mature light. In fact Ellie's character in this game imo has done wonders for women in video games, i know i'm not the only that thinks she is one of the best characters ever to grace gaming, she's main character on cover etc. You should be praising this game for it, not using it as a way to get attention for your cause, which now you've damaged, well done. I had respect for you and enjoyed your reviews, but this is just plain wrong, respect gone.

odimusprime
odimusprime

*SPOILERS*

If it had been Joel who died instead of Tess in the game, and Tess as the main character driven to get Ellie out of the city, nobody would say anything. Or if the child who died at the beginning had been a son instead of a daughter, nobody would make a plea saying that he was a male casualty of storytelling. People die. Shit happens. The real world reflects a lot of aspects of the story (minus the mindless infected roaming the streets), they just happen to be from a male perspective with female characters who die around him. The main character just happens to be male, the child who dies just happens to be his daughter, and his friend who dies just happens to be female. You're completely overlooking the fact that not only is Ellie an extremely strong female character, but Tess is an absolute badass with more strength at the beginning than Joel had through the entire game. Ellie, in the end, was willing to sacrifice herself and save humanity, but Joel made the weak, selfish decision to try to save her. None of these changes would "subvert the traditional male power fantasy", they would just tell the same story with slightly altered details. Please, in the future, show some professionalism rather than using an entertainment website as a platform for your obviously tilted beliefs, or at least look at the whole picture rather than twisting a few small instances completely out of proportion.

TriangleHard
TriangleHard

This is Gamespot right? Not feminist activitist website. If you are an editor, please focus the articles on games, not forcing your feminism on others, especially in today's world where even women tends to disagree with feminist ideology. I find this kind of article as offensive as religious article. If someone wrote article about how Last of Us use evolution theory that is against bible and this is a problem, such article shouldn't be allowed to be published, correct? I find this equal to that.

MayMosh
MayMosh

SPOILERS totally wrong in God Of War Kratos himself kills his family so the blame is completely on him in TLOU Joel tries to save his daughter and fail not because he's unable to do so but for circumstances he can't control so the death of someone you love and the loss of humanity are present on both stories but presented in a different way so the the article failed about that comparison and Joel is not a hero he's far from it in fact he's a selfish guy responsible for mankind's damnation, my question is Carolyn why do you call yourself a video game journalist? in my opinion you know nothing about it.

Thuban_23
Thuban_23

Huh, weird. I always thought Carolyn was a guy with one of those feminine but possibly male names like Kelly or Courtney.

Omen22
Omen22

I think the story is Ellie's to a much larger extent than Joel's. She's the sole driving factor of the games story, and her journey is learning what the world was, what it has become, her place in it and how to move forward.

Joel's story isn't about how his life is impacted by the death of women, it's about him continuing to be a lost cause, a grizzled survivor shaped by 20 years of misery, and projecting his "reason for surviving" onto Ellie due to the circumstances they're in.

By the end, she has been forced to see and do some horrible, awful things, Joel knows he can trust and depend on her in a pinch, yet he still chooses to keep the truth from her for selfish reasons. He's just as dismissive of life, death and the rest of the world as he was when we took control of him 20 years into the outbreak.

RG923
RG923

It's true Joel is the latest iteration of the "violent, brooding while man" archetype we've come to see feature in some many video games as the lead character. There's no denying that. However, I don't think it's fair to knock the game for something that wasn't intentional or deliberately malicious.

Any situation can be spun to enhance any agenda. I don't deny The Last of Us doesn't push its female characters as far as it could, but it does a damn good job. They are *not* just fodder for Joel's development. I think, just for once, something should be free to soak up the praise it so rightly deserves. Naughty Dog created an excellent game that really tapped into the storytelling potential of video games, creating something that can rival the best of film and literature, and that is most definitely worth something. It shouldn't be the prey of anyone's agenda or the jaded citizenry of the Internet looking to tear down anything that's special or beautiful.

therealzabuza
therealzabuza

Hahahahhahhaa I read the spoilers and haven't played the game yet . Cos I can .

#likeaboss

notavailiable
notavailiable

@starlancex8

Sounds like someone has a lot of issues. Is it women, lesbians, people of color, British accents or that particular combination that drives you crazy? I said I don't agree with this critic's take in general. I also said that it is up to players to seek out and play only games that give them whatever it is they want. What I don't understand is why this issue makes people like you so angry.

More options hopefully means more players buy into gaming. More players hopefully means more really good games are made as the industry grows. There is no downside to more choices or character personalization. If you don't care what your character looks like you won't even notice.

If on the other hand you really do have some issues, and you really do, that's something you need to deal with.

joel_c17
joel_c17

Is this thing still working here? Pretty clear GS has some kinda beef with The Last of Us - quality of this site has drastically plummeted these last few years.

heroesfan261
heroesfan261

it's like you ignore the fact that the majority of people who experience violent deaths in this game. furthermore,why should i give a  damn? in violent media, lots of character die. if you can't handle the fact that some of the people who die are women then suck it up.

motopsycho650
motopsycho650

Remember the old saying, "out of sight, out of mind."  If/when sexism truly ceases to exist, there will never be any discussions like this because the thought would never cross anyone's mind.  Pointing out sexism/racism is often a form of sexism/racism.

motopsycho650
motopsycho650

Anytime someone mentions sexism or racism where it's not obvious is simply empowering the sexism and racism to continue.  Until this article was written, hardly anyone would look at this game and say it's sexist.  But the author had to bring the subject up, which empowered a huge backlash of sexist comments.  All the author had to do was say the word sexism, and look at all the uneducated, ignorant, and otherwise useless comments being posted.  The author was trying to make a point about sexism, and now she's receiving a massive amount of sexist comments.

To the readers/commenters: Many of these comments prove her point that sexism is still very real in the gaming culture.

To the author:  Those who sow in flames shall reap the ashes.  You started this mess of sexist/idiotic comments by bringing up the subject, so cherish the replies.

arr_me_maytee
arr_me_maytee

As much as I disagree with the authors point (or lack of) I can't help but feel some shame for my fellow opposers. 

There is no need to attack the author for being transgender, for being a feminist or name calling for any reason in general. Isn't it better to debate our point of view through constructive criticism and counterpoints than to act like a bigoted, frothy mouthed hive mind?

There are some good points to be made but show some civility while doing so.

Hirasugi
Hirasugi

Generally I agree with some of Caro's articles but this one missed in a spectacularly clumsy way.  First if your going to attack a sacred cow, best give good examples and explain them adequately.  For instance, true Ellie can't swim but in almost all of the situations it would be impossible for you to progress at those section without her assistance.  More importantly the relationship between Ellie and Joel is certainly not one sided.  Both need each other, and both grow as a result.  I find it hilarious this weird back-and-forward complaining about women in media: 

Complaint: "Women are too subservient"

Media Response: (Gives women more prevalent role)

Complaint: "They have a role BUT they fail Bechdel test!"

Media Response: (Empower women by making them just a strong as male counterparts)

Complaint: "They are now sexless!"

Media Response: "Sigh"...(give them strong role with some sexual interest for flavor)

Complaint: "Why are you being so violent to women, your being unfair!"

Media Response: "..."

Don't get me wrong in a decent amount of cases women are certainly done a blatant disservice.  Personally though I feel judging this game with such harshness is completely grasping at controversy where known exists.  This article is devoid of any integrity.

Gredirn
Gredirn

I for one can careless if I play a male or female main character as long as it has a good story.Games first and far most are just games based on fantasy that have ratings.If you don't like the rating and the things within don't play it.Fantasy is fantasy whatever its based upon and if you think other wise someone might need to call a 5150 so you can get checked out.

Klutzz_
Klutzz_

Reading these comments proves the author's points about sexism more than the article!

Myke311
Myke311

I think what people fail to mention is that the majority of game designers are men!  Family men at that.  When they develop these characters they try to think of what would be the absolute worst case scenario.  As a family man myself, the answer is losing my family while I am left to linger on.  That's why this scenario seems like it is played out a lot.  Because it is one that most men can empathize with!

Danksong
Danksong

How about you stop looking at things as man/woman/black/white/etc and look at this in the way it should be, a fantastic game that actually makes you care about Joel, Ellie, and the others that you come across.  Would the game be better if Joel was a strong black woman leading an innocent boy across country?  No, it probably would have been awful and unbelievable.  It's nitpicking like this that does absolutely nothing to improve on the gaming community.  If you're going to nitpick a game do it for actual reasons why the game is lacking, not so you can lure feminists in to boost your page hit counter.

sketchu
sketchu

I completly disagree with this article, I loved the Last of Us and don't remember seeing any female charcacters as strong and badass as Ellie and Tess on any game (comparing to Cortana, Princess Peach, etc.) it felt somehow kind of balanced. 

Seems weird how this is the only site underating that game....

Niamh79
Niamh79

Part 2 -

I love that people were mentioning Fable, Mass Effect and the Bethesda games. You should note that these games were NOT designed with a female lead in mind, rather they let you create your character and gender is just one of the things you can select. The reason these games might stand out to you is that even if you pick a woman to play, she is not defined by her sex or her physicality in game and is treated much like the male protagonist is. This is why they stand out, because of the LACK of blatant sexism, it's so ingrained that you only notice it when IT'S NOT THERE.

So far, no one in the comments has acknowledged or successfully refuted the meat of Carolynn's argument....rather all I'm hearing is:

"ZOMG111! Feminazis!!"

"The woman who wrote this article is ugly hurrr durr hur hurrrr"

"Sure sexism exist, but I am a male and don't care, thus no one should talk about it."

"Shut the fuck up and go away!!"

Really fanfreakintastic guys. You all have such enlightened views about women. Might explain why so many of you are awkward, pimply losers living in your mom's basement.

bj4all
bj4all

Have you ever noticed that the feminists are usually either extremely ugly and/or bitchy? I think feminists are bottling up a lot of anger towards males. Probably because either males won't fuck them (geez.. you've got to be REALLY ugly for that) or males fuck em and dump em. so they generalize all males and join the feminazis in their misandrist crusade against males. when you characterize or judge an entire gender (like the feminists do).. guess what.. that makes YOU the sexist!

starlancex8
starlancex8

@notavailiable That means a lot coming from a alt troll a/c.

My beef is not with gays let me make that clear, take your crap where it makes sense. Really you think you can bring social changes from a fucking game site? Like many have said games are a form of entertainment, yet many of you "claim" that we need more options? So are we just going to ignore the countless other games where the lead is a "violent female" and focus it on the last of us? If tess was the main and she violently murdered men that would make you feel better?

Its not me with the issues, in fact its you.  

starlancex8
starlancex8

@motopsycho650 No you misunderstand. Its not there is no "sexist" content in video games portraying women, Its that the last of us has none.

This is just a review on this game, not a general overlook on video games.

Oh and btw, doesn't mean that a few games.."dealpool" show women as sexist, doesn't mean the whole gaming industry is sexist. Its like saying all Muslims are terrorist   

Speranza318
Speranza318

@arr_me_maytee You don't see the irony in a transgender individual making strong comments about gender roles in video games?  The author is confused about his/her own gender in real life, yet can make such strong comments about how games "handle gender".  I think it's kind of funny actually.


It doesn't help that the author's point is completely off base, but may clearly relate to being confused about his/her own gender in real life and thus has misguided views of gender roles when it comes to the gaming world.

vladi987
vladi987

@arr_me_maytee I see no problem with attacking an author who attacked such a good game with some bull****! Gamespot were so paid for this, starting with the worst review ever, and now this article which attacking the game for totally NOTHING. I respect opinions but its not an opinion, its total stupidity. trust me they DESERVE this hating, we should attack them more, so maybe they will stop with this nonsense....

EdotheHero
EdotheHero

@Hirasugi harsh? i think you're taking this article too personally. there's nothing harsh about it.

Speranza318
Speranza318

@Klutzz_ Looks like you still need to read some comments than.  Not all of them prove the point about sexism.  Many people have argued that many games came out that have strong female leads, yet Carolyn chose to isolate this game.  For what reason, I'll never know as The Last of Us had strong female characters that turned out stronger than the lead male character at the end of the game.


But arguing about this to someone who isolates themselves into a sexist party is like telling a crazy person that they aren't crazy.  Both are delusional.

musalala
musalala

@Klutzz_ LOL it says you joined gamespot On the 10th of July 2013...ALT account...maybe?

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 Lol what exactly do you even want?

Most of you feminist want a lead female game? go play one then, there are plenty out there.

"So far, no one in the comments has acknowledged or successfully refuted the meat of Carolynn's argument....rather all I'm hearing is:" Well thats because this is the wrong game to post that under, would have made sense in deadpools review.


Klutzz_
Klutzz_

@bj4all oh fuck you, you little prick.  I see some SERIOUS projecting here.  I also see sexism & logical fallacies.  You might as well just delete your comment and put "TITS OR GTFO" 

You present it so that in order for someone to identify themselves as a feminist they must first fucking PROVE to you they are not ugly or bitchy?  Follow that by a little virgin shaming and you are just being a completely disgusting excuse for a human being this entire thread.  I'm not a feminist I'm an equalist.  I think EVERYONE should treat EVERYONE equally... but right here, you and most of the other cunts on this thread are proving that there is still a need for feminists.

Niamh79
Niamh79

TIL: If you point out sexism in video games you are ugly and angry because you can't get laid. Also, you are sexist! Brilliant analysis bj! *slow clap*

odimusprime
odimusprime

@starlancex8 @motopsycho650 You obviously didn't read this article. This isn't a review, and actually is an overlook on video games in general, exactly what you said it isn't. 

EdotheHero
EdotheHero

@Speranza318 i am blown away by how you failed to understand anything in this article. well done.

EdotheHero
EdotheHero

@vladi987 @arr_me_maytee This topic is more complicated than you think, and I believe it is something worth thinking about - nothing will change (change can be both bad and good) if we continue to pretend it doesn't exist. You're making it sound as if you can't handle the truth (desperation to 'stop with this nonsense' as you so clearly put it)

And if you are someone who believes in the 'they are getting paid' nonsense, then don't expect anyone to take your opinion seriously. Please come up with more valuable criticism if you want your voice to be properly heard.

Klutzz_
Klutzz_

@musalala @Klutzz_ I'm not stupid... You don't just go talking logic and equality for women in games using your normal tag.  That's like wearing a sign saying "Doormat here, please harass me until I quit games forever" (hey look another thing proving the author's point)

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Klutzz_ @bj4all "I think EVERYONE should treat EVERYONE equally." What more do you fucking feminist want? Seriously women are treated equality, there are women bosses and presidents now. Only place women are treated like shit are in 3rd world countries. Besides why are you idiots posting your crap here? leave your feminist bs outa games, get off your chair and actually do something about it instead of crying. And fyi people dont have any problems with feminist, its the ones that go to the extreme.  

 "that there is still a need for feminists" No theres a need for womens rights not feminist , we are tired of you feminist  

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79  "If you point out sexism in video games" that is what you and you friend Carolyn did, seriously nice try troll  

EdotheHero
EdotheHero

@vladi987 @EdotheHero  regardless of whether it happens or not, using the 'they are getting paid' logic (or there lack of) instead of accepting the bigger picture is nonsense.

I don't see how Tom's score of 8 has anything to do with Carolyn's article over here - there's nothing strange going on, and I don't see how you can't see that reviewers have different opinions on things. This website does not give games scores - it's reviewers do.

and again, I don't think you understand what the article is talking about, because it's definitely not about sexism. The fact is, a lot of games have this common structure of 'man loses woman who means the world to him, sets off on a journey fueled by revenge etc'. this is not sexism, and Carolyn is not suggesting this. but this is something that exists in many games today - surely you can see that for yourself? otherwise you are the naive one over here.

i hope that cleared it up for you. i can't stand people using the word 'sexism' in such an irrelevant way.

vladi987
vladi987

@EdotheHero @vladi987 @arr_me_maytee the "they are getting paid" isnt nonsense, those things happen much more than you think, and if you dont believe that you are very naive. and im pretty sure thats what going on here, a strange coincidence of  review with the lowest score ive seen and this article which IS talking about something which doesnt even exist.

i can handle any truth but this is total nonsense, there is zero sexism in this game, any female character could be easily changed to male and male to female without changing the plot...

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Klutzz_  "equality for women in games" Sure lets forget about the countless other game titles that had women leads and just base everything on a single game . Talking logic? you got none, you trolls sound like a broken record now seriously get a life loser 

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79  "you are in favor of equality." Nope sorry ill never be in favor of shemales.

"Lots of men and women are feminists" i really dont care how many there are, The point remains "This" game is the wrong place to post that crap.


Niamh79
Niamh79

lol and you get to decide who gets in and who doesn't? Seriously kid, you need to stop talking and mature a little bit. In 10 years (or at least until puberty has set in for a few years) you'll look back on your comments and be seriously revolted. Lots of men and women are feminists, you would be shocked to know just how many of us are out there. It's not a bad thing it literally means that you are in favor of equality. Maybe you should take some classes and learn about other groups. It would be very enlightening for you. In the meantime, you really need to work on your material...so far, all you've told me is "fenimist r stupid!! hurrr duuuur" lol. Is that the best you've got?

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 "is one giant boy's club." No no women are invited. Just not feminist women

Niamh79
Niamh79

@starlancex8 @Niamh79 No, I'm getting ready for work, I don't have to prove anything to you. Even if I gave you an answer you would say that I looked it up anyhow. You still have not refuted one thing, only proved that you think the gaming community is one giant boy's club.

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 Yea this is the internet, like lm gonna take your world for it troll, simple question, not really a test. You consider this a test you must be really stupid..Still looking for the ANS in Google search? 

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 Prove it, what joke did Ellie read from her joke book? the 2nd one.

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 Really? "kid" you playing that card? yea heres a thought why dont you go actually play this game then come back troll

starlancex8
starlancex8

@Niamh79 Yea no human being can fully understand the mind of a screwed up feminist.