Game industry reacts to Clinton, NIMF

With federal legislation on the way and a D-plus grade from a parent watchdog group, industry groups respond to critics.

Yesterday wasn't a stellar day for the game industry's public image. First, the National Institute on Media and the Family (NIMF) gave the industry a cumulative 10-year grade of D-plus, citing increases in sex and violence in games and a content ratings system "beyond repair." That was followed later in the day by US Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton's (D-N.Y.) announcement of her intention to introduce federal legislation regulating the sale of violent games to minors. Game industry groups were predictably quick to respond.

Entertainment Software Association (ESA) president Douglas Lowenstein said the group "appreciates the fact that she has sought to draft a more thoughtful proposal" in a statement, but also said the ESA strongly opposes the bill, saying measures in place at the moment to keep inappropriate material out of children's hands are good enough.

"There is now a continuum of tools from the store to the home enabling parents to take charge of the video games their kids play," according to Lowenstein. "It is now up to them to do their jobs as they see fit, not up to government to do it for them."

Beyond that, Lowenstein said it would be unconstitutional, and not just for infringing on the creative rights of game developers. The fact that Clinton intends to base what is and isn't acceptable to sell to minors on the Entertainment Software Ratings Board (ESRB) ratings system gives the industry more grounds to attack the bill's constitutionality, according to Lowenstein.

"While we are gratified that the Senator holds the ESRB in such high regard that her bill would give these ratings the force of law, the courts have made clear that giving a private party governmental powers is unconstitutional," Lowenstein wrote.

Clinton hasn't made her legislation public, and an ESA representative wouldn't comment on whether or not the organization was privy to the actual wording of what she will introduce.

In his response to Clinton, Interactive Entertainment Merchants Association (IEMA) president Hal Halpin didn't address specifics of the law so much as he defended the group's existing efforts to educate parents and keep inappropriate games out of minors' hands.

"We are making significant and tangible progress and have successfully implemented policies and procedures in each and every member company store across the country in just two year's time," Halpin noted. "We have also replaced valuable in-store signage with ratings education information displayed at the point of merchandising and/or the point of sale. And while we acknowledge that the 'human factor' will always be our greatest challenge (making sure that parents and store-level staff are as committed to the same end as retail corporations), we are convinced that we have done our part."

The theme of progress was one echoed in Halpin's response to the NIMF report card.

"It is important to emphasize that the NIMF 'secret shoppers' were turned down 56 percent of the time when they attempted to purchase M-rated games," Halpin stated. "This turn-down rate is a significant improvement since 2000, when only 19 percent were turned down. This overall trend demonstrates strong and growing retailer commitment to video game rating enforcement, although clearly we are not yet where we want to be as an industry."

The NIMF report gave retailers a B for their policies and a D-minus for their policy enforcement. The ESRB did a little worse, getting a C for ratings education and an F for ratings accuracy. According to the NIMF, "the continual increase in adult content, the failure to use the AO rating, and the 'hot coffee' scandal of 2005 all point toward the deep flaws in the ESRB rating system."

The NIMF labeled the ESRB system as "beyond repair" and called for an "Independent Universal Ratings System." The resulting response issued by the ratings board was less diplomatic than that of the IEMA, alternating between attacking the NIMF's methodology and motivations and defending its own.

"The call to issue more AO ratings has little to do with rating accuracy and more to do with NIMF's real agenda, which is to destroy the commercial viability of games it deems objectionable," the ESRB's response read. "Unlike NIMF, ESRB's job is to be a neutral rater, not a censor."

The board claims that after last year's report card, it contacted NIMF to work with them on a solution, but never received a response. "Their silence is an unmistakable indication that this is not about working cooperatively in the interests of video game consumers, but rather is about NIMF imposing its own narrow values and morality on the rest of the country, regardless that it has little evidence to show that parents agree with their point of view," the statement reads.

Written By

Want the latest news about Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas?

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas

Discussion

175 comments
bongo_man47
bongo_man47

this dosen't affect me,i live in Canada =)

mongo_14
mongo_14

Greyghost_12 i agree with your overall message but but san andreas did have a positive message about protecting your community this was of course metaphorical but the main character were against drug use , and the bad guys were (no offense) corrupt cops. in short most stories have a moral, you just have to look for it.

Greyghost_12
Greyghost_12

I really hope that the majority of the comments that I've read are from underage viewers and not (apparently un-)concerned adults. I was a Police Officer for 10 years and a gamer from the Atari days. I can't believe how the game industry has supported such garbage as San Andreas. I own the game and I know what crap it is. But, at the same time, I did see real genius in the game. However, Rockstar threw moral values and professionalism out the window when they made what could have been a true masterpiece into a Boyz N Da Hood novelty. I enjoyed everything about the game except for the message it sends out to our youth. Come on. This game has everything it needs for someone to enjoy hours of gameplay and all kinds of different things to enjoy. But, it was ruined by filling the game with Dew Rag wearing gangstas who commit crimes.... and by generally glamorizing Poor, Ignorant, Gang Members who can't even speak the English Language. Children are, unfortunately, impressionable. Even the movie Boyz N Da Hood had a positive message. It DID NOT glamorize South Central L.A. or gang banging. I think that Rockstar could have easily created a game that sent a positive message to our youth which would have been accepted by everyone and possibly MORE successful that San Andreas. We, as humans, have to encourage POSITIVE messages to OURSELVES. Is it necessary for the government to step in and censor the games out there? No. If the game-makers were interested in contributing to the positive development of society and not contributing to the breakdown of moral values then I don't think anyone would have much of a complaint. I don't recall anyone rating Pac-Man or Dig-Dug back in the days. But, you have to ask yourself... "At what point has it gone too far?". When there is a game that shows you how to inject intravenous drugs without leaving visible injuries....is that too far? Or how about when it teaches potential child molesters how to express their fantasies? Is that okay. Or when it teaches people how to break into homes and bypass alarm systems? Everyone has a point, but it just hasn't reached the MAJORITY, yet. We should expect more from the Game Makers who are educating our youth with GREAT success. Example, America's Army.....Obviously the government agrees that it can educate people through games. So shouldn't we be careful what we are teaching our kids? It is not the parents responsibility. It is...read this.....EVERYONES RESPONSIBILITY!!!! This is not Anarchy or Utopia. This is the REAL World and we all have a responsibility to act. Just my 2 cents. BTW, Rockstar if anyone reads this.....You have TONS and TONS of potential if only you could use your abilities in a productive manner you would be AWESOME. I respect the creativity, but I will never support the message that you have sent so far. A child could have written the story in San Andreas. It takes hard work and TALENT to create a wonderful world with amazing stories to provoke young minds to think and become creative. You have contributed NOTHING along these lines. And I was quickly bored with the simple Gang Style carjacking and dope smoking. Please show me what you are TRULY capable of and I will support you whole-heartedly. I know many 20-30 year old gamers who share my opinion and would LOVE to see Rockstar put out a really "Good" game.

CloudStrifeFFO7
CloudStrifeFFO7

Hilary dose not need to do stuff like this man shes a idiot I dislike her i hope she dosent run in 08 if she dose I hope she gets the boot!

AznDestoryer2
AznDestoryer2

Im democrat and i hope Hilary loses, games well they are violent, BUT THERE ARE PARENTAL LOCKS ON SYSTEMS, Clinton, NIMF, Lee, and Tompson should all forget killing games, some games are educational, whats next, PGR 3 rated AO because it is a game? All games are banned? STOP DOING THIS CLINTON, FOCUS ON THE REAL ISSUES LIKE KATRANA AND IRAQ AND TERRORISM, OR PLAY A GAME AND TELL US SHOULD THIS HAPPEN.

qbkiller94
qbkiller94

The median age of gamers has risen to AGE 23 over the years. That means there are about as many gamers over the age of 23 as there are under it. Some of them are parents andnewsflash Hilary....they vote! This is an issue of the goverment overstepping its boundries. I wish the parents of America would wake up and do their jobs. The same with the retailers who actually sell Mature games to minors. I'm 29 and I don't have kids. If I did, then they wouldn't be playing GTA or anything like it until they were old enough. It's a no brainer. GRADES: ESRB - A NIMF - F Hillary Clinton - D- (Stick to some real issues already!!!)

qbkiller94
qbkiller94

The median age of gamers has risen to AGE 23 over the years. That means there are about as many gamers over the age of 23 as there are under it. Some of them are parents andnewsflash Hilary....they vote! This is an issue of the goverment overstepping its boundries. I wish the parents of America would wake up and do their jobs. The same with the retailers who actually sell Mature games to minors. I'm 29 and I don't have kids. If I did, then they wouldn't be playing GTA or anything like it until they were old enough. It's a no brainer. GRADES: ESRB - A NIMF - F Hillary Clinton - D- (Stick to some real issues already!!!)

qbkiller94
qbkiller94

The median age of gamers has risen to AGE 23 over the years. That means there are about as many gamers over the age of 23 as there are under it. Some of them are parents andnewsflash Hilary....they vote! This is an issue of the goverment overstepping its boundries. I wish the parents of America would wake up and do their jobs. The same with the retailers who actually sell Mature games to minors. I'm 29 and I don't have kids. If I did, then they wouldn't be playing GTA or anything like it until they were old enough. It's a no brainer. GRADES: ESRB - A NIMF - F Hillary Clinton - D- (Stick to some real issues already!!!)

AznDestoryer2
AznDestoryer2

Ok, why wont hilary clinton listen 1. Hurricane Katrana hit New Orleans and hurricanes hit FL and people are still recovering from last year 2. Our Soldiers are killed in iraq And all she does is trying to find out how she can censore video games? WHAT ABOUT OUR TROOPS, HURRICANE KATRANA, AND SHE DOESNT CARE, WHAT ABOUT BOOKS, TV, MOVIES?

stpaul
stpaul

well, it is perhaps a sad commentary on contemporary politis that, rather than being a sure-fire way to lose in '08 , Hillary's strategy is a surefire formula for victory. political, cultural and social life in America has been hijacked by the Christian right, and although their power and status is waning, and I believe an inevitable backlash will eventually ensue, they're the ones setting the terms for debate. Like it or not, that's just unfiltered reality. to ignore their influence would be political suicide, and Mrs. Clinton is savvy enough to be aware of this. Not that it really matters. Both parties share the same agenda, namely, gutting the constitution, stripping you of what freedoms you have left and asserting complete control over every aspect of our lives. Here's some reccomended reading for Y'all: George Orwell's 1984. Read it. Let your voice be heard. Vote, even if it seems pointless. Otherwise, sit back, relax and enjoy a life lived compliantly according to the dictates of corporate fascism and utter state control. enjoy!

YukoAsho
YukoAsho

I would have to agree, this latest bout of stupidity has all but assured Hillary's loss in the Democratic primaries. After the messes that were the Gore/Lieberman and Kerry/Edwards tickets, people on the Democratic side have to understand that they can't just pick the person who betrays the party ideal. Hopefully the Democratic party will realize that a candidate cannot hope to win the general election if they completely alienate their core constituency. Of course, if Hillary DOES get the primary, we can all look forward to Condi Rice as the next President.

Paganstar
Paganstar

Another attempt to force her morality and ultra conservative christian beleifs on others... typical. While I do agree that young kids should not be exposed to ultra violent games, it is the job of we parents to decide what our kids see and do not see, not the state government, not the federal government and especially not Hillary Clinton If I want to let my kids play GTA then it is my decision... as long as I know what the game is (I do know btw and my kids do not play it). If you look at her past she has turned face more times than you can count... She slams Tanya Tucker for the song "stand by my man" saying she would never do that... then when her old Bill gets caught with the cigar she does just that!. She tries to get the power rangers off the air because they are ultraviolent and do not provide any good message to children. Then it is found out that she never had seen anything of the show but was just listening to what some other person told her 3rd hand. And now this... Just remember this.. she was a lawyer first long before she married Bill. Lawyers are never to be trusted. I am a proud Texan and American... but if Hillary gets elected president then I may have to start looking at Canada.

solidsqual
solidsqual

I just completed my Law School Admissions Test (LSAT), I'm going to law school to learn how to fight "narrow" minded individuals and ogranizations like Hillary and NIMF. Gamespot , does video game law exist?

Ichiziro
Ichiziro

LET US RAISE OUR FISTS IN DISGUST AND OUTRAGE! they're trying to infringe upon something protected by the first amendment. im sick of all this bull sh!t... attacking more hard working people all because parents got lazy and didnt watch what their kids bought, or what they bought their kids. the parents are the ones who should be educated here, not the game developers or the retailers or the ESRB. plus this is definitely not a way for her to win favor among a crucial group that i fall into. i will be of voting age by the 2008 election, along with many other gamers my age (17) across the nation and im voting third party all the way. democrats shouldnt win because they will likely enforce these back-a$$wards anit-game laws. republicans shouldnt win because they will keep us in this farce we call a "war". I URGE ALL WHO CAN VOTE TO VOTE THIRD PARTY IN THE 2008 ELECTION! END THE CYCLE OF MADNESS PLAGUING OUR GOVERNMENT!

Father_Time89
Father_Time89

You know there is a chance tghat Hillary won't run for us president, even if she tries. She has to win the democratic primaries in order to be the democratic candidate so all us liberal gamers might still be able to vote democratic in 08 after all.

Father_Time89
Father_Time89

to dastuph, I am a liberal but I'm a gamer first so I won't be voting for hillary in 2008.

Father_Time89
Father_Time89

to jerico yes it is perfectly legal to send Hillary hate mail as long as you a. do not physically threaten her (you can threaten not to vote for her though) and b. you can't send tons of hatemail at he rall at once that's called harrasment and you will probably have legal action taken against you if you that.

redavery
redavery

You know hilary clinton and all those other people that want to kill the gaming industry can suk my ballzzz. If they want to make the world a worse place than it is than kiss my azz. All these damn laws isnt appropiate. Its not the people who make these games fought, they didnt go to the goddamn kids house and tell him to play, they aint their damn parents. Just like yaw mofo's say children and teens should take responsibility for our selves, the parents should take goddamn responsibility for their own goddamn kids. So dont go blaming on the game industry B!+che$.. Man it feels real good to let it all out. Cursing at politics so someone could see feels great :).

CSDV
CSDV

Videogames are a scapegoat for parents to draw attention away from them. Nothing is their fault it has to be someone elses. People were hurting others long before videogames ,rock music,etc.. People are evil and they are twisted that way by the negative comments of other people. These parents need to step up and refuse their kids and just say "NO!"

lilweightlifter
lilweightlifter

This is how Hillary gets attention - through taking away little kids' games, while Bill just has his affairs.

jerico6
jerico6

Is it legal to have to send them hate mail?

BigCat2K20
BigCat2K20

I feel U.S. Senator Hillary Clinton and politicians should be quiet and go away for good on this issue. They should step back and let video game industry do their job! Shouldn't they be worry about hate crimes, war in Iraq, katrina, economy, and abortion? I'm pretty sure those issues are more important than video games. This bill sends a powerful negative message to the video gamers around this country and one step away from censorship. Movies and television shows are just as violent as video games. All they want to do is bash video games to death and blame it for kids committing crimes. I won't be voting for U.S. Senator H. Clinton in 2008. If she can do this to vidoe games, what other senseless issues she's going tackle next?

dastuph
dastuph

I'm betting all the candy@ss liberals out there that just happen to be gamers are having one heck of a tough time deciding what side to fall on this issue. Big surprise. On one side they have their love of gaming. On the other side, they have their love of Hillary God save us all. Wait, I can't use the word god........ Let whatever-non-denominational-entity-you-happen-to-believe-or-not-believe-in save us all :)

hawkeye1944
hawkeye1944

opps sorry, thought the first comment i made didn't go through...

hawkeye1944
hawkeye1944

Tackle smaller problems first; Can't get rid of underage drinking completely but you can limit it; just stating this in response to the whole only way to stop M-rated games from getting into the hands of minors is to ban them completely which screams censorship for adults. Ideally getting rid of all sales to minors would be best, its not viable, limiting it further is.

hawkeye1944
hawkeye1944

Maybe tackle the smaller things first? And the complete removal of Mature content games from minors is going to be impossible unless you ban them completely which they obviously won't do since it screams censorship; i think the idea is to keep as many mature-rated games out of minors hands as possible...same as legal age for alcohol, they KNOW that they can't stop all underage drinking but they can limit it.

amogley
amogley

It's an empty gesture ... kids will get hold of the games via other methods. This is just to make certain people appear "concerned" and trying to protect the "innocence" of our youth ... yeah right .. if that's the case then there are a lot of issues that you really need tackle first .. the games industry is the least of the problems.

WPack911
WPack911

I am a democrat and loved the former president Bill Clinton. I also agree on most things his wife supports and I will vote Democrat in 08 regardless of this because there are bigger issues at hand like the war and economy, but in this one thing I think Ms. Clinton is very wrong. It is almost as narrow minded and conservative as a republican would be and is on most all other lager issues such as abortion and the environment.

hawkeye1944
hawkeye1944

Bill doesn't affect me since i'm Canadian, i don't see how this will affect you unless your under 18 and have to go through a friend, parent, etc. Otherwise its doing the same thing that ESRB is doing except making the policies that some stores already enforce, enforcable by law. Yes, its easy to blame TV, movies, videogames as sources of violent society, same as sports and all that. Its also easy for us to say Clinton is only doing this to get more public recognition for your guys upcoming elections. Maybe *obviously not all *cough* Layton *cough** has a genuine sense of importance, and not just for their own gains. Seems like a double-edged knife...can't remember a time i haven't been told off by some parent for telling their kid to NOT running full speed in a crowded area, swearing etc. In response to a previous statement; this could be a stepping stone for censorship *note not FURTHER censorship since its not allowing mature content to underage persons anyways* but if it tries to go further then this, then is the time to oppose it, not before because its NOT a threat to whats already being done by some retailers, just making what they do a legal practice.

gameplayer2105
gameplayer2105

get your 17 year old buddy to buy you a game! i mean, the only way to truly stop these mature game sales are to eliminate games..... and thats not gonna happen

chupamiubre
chupamiubre

well if the goverment has to become a responsible parent. i think that since we as tax payers get a say in parenting there kids if a kid wont shutup in the restruant and the parents dont care well then you get to become the parent and choose what displine that that child gets ie spanking time out flogging cat of 9 tails whatever becuse if i pay money to the goverment to be the smart parent then i get a say in how that kid is raised i already send your kids to school pay for your food your insurance the prisons cable power water food clothing medical bills hay whats another 1trillon its things like this that mke me want to move to canada

death5ter
death5ter

I don't think the government has to do with this, no matter what they do if violent game themes which ESRB rates are left to minors, they will and will play it. This should be the a family affair. So what's the use of ESRB?

spade0013
spade0013

I think it should be up to the parents but the ONLY part that sounds good is the part about the law against M or AO for people underage. ...but that's my opinion.

Father_Time89
Father_Time89

I told some of my friends that the 08 race might be Clinton vs. Rice. They said that if that happened then that would be the year the independent parties won.

1005
1005

this is not good VooDoo!....

Father_Time89
Father_Time89

Ouch! Now I know why making sthe sale of M rated games to minors is unconstitutional. Good thing is it takes a looooooooooooooong time for a bill to become law (sometimes the slowness of congress and the senate is a good thing) so I guess Hillary can't make that law. Funny thing is that Bush hasn't said anything on the matter. Maybe because he a small speck of intelligence and realises that there are a lot bigger issues to worry about than videogames. Iraq, the economy, Katrina, national debt, oil prices, just to name a few.

GIF
GIF

The problem is, Hillary doesn't know or like videogames so its only too obvious that shes pushing this game bill for her own personal agenda.

GunslingerMan
GunslingerMan

I give up theres no way of stoping this old b ...

gameruler8721
gameruler8721

That is what i am trying to say. the iorny in all of this is that if they spent less time com planing about this stuff and watching what their kids buy then this would not be a problem. now scence NIMF or whatever their name is a apparently hell bent on waisting taxes on this issue then have them pay some and get the internet and read these comments. Plus I will solve this hole thing my self. Have parents just sighne a form and give it to a game store that says "My child can buy games of this rating". One more thing to the ESRB it is time to introduse some indetween levels of rating between T M and AO.

trix5817
trix5817

The NIMF= a bunch of housewives with nothing else better to do than try and make rules for people for things they know nothing about. Im 15 and live in michigan where i cant buy M rated games. It doesnt bother me at all because my parents buy them for me cus they know im mature enough to understand that violence is bad. seeing that most of the parents of kids under 17 have there parent there with them when the buy the game anyways, all the kid has to do is have there parent go to the cash register and buy it. And if the parents dont pay attention to what there kids play already, then what makes u think there gonna care what games they play. What is with the ESRB F rating. It has to be one of the best systems out there. The NIMF probably wants to rate games like mario kart AO for shooting out turtles of ur car. Three words NIMF GET A LIFE!

gameruler8721
gameruler8721

People they are GAMES and the entire Hot Coffe thing was sent out through the internet and unless they want to close the Inter Net then this problem will be ggoing on for ever. Come on I am 16 and play a lot of games some of them are rated mature but i am not a worped little individual. Plus if this is a push for the white house then it is a poor one. For one resin many voters like M rated games and see this as a problem. Two many voters HAVE NO CLUE WHAT THIS IS ABOUT. Not to mention the fact that Microsoft, Sony, and EA are HUGE companies and hindering them is a bad idea.

DTSfreak
DTSfreak

The "hot coffee" content was created by Rockstar, accessing it was done by a mod. Anyway, Hillary blows, but so does every other party involved in the attacks of video games and entertainment. BOTH Democrats (more the conservative liberals like Hillary Clinton and Joe Lieberman) and Republicans seem to hate video games and it's occurring to me as a lose-lose situation when both major parties publicly attack them. Unlike known conservatives and Repuplicans, such as attorney Jack Thompson and Alabama lawmaker Gerald Allen, the Democrats are NOT putting restrictions on video game developers, only on how M and AO games are sold. What I blame in all of this mess is the Christian conservative politicians who like to publicly display their 'Christian morals' by attacking open-minded forms of arts & entertainment. As a matter of fact, Fox News recently had a segment air about why "Liberalism" is hurting hollywood and video games with violence, sex, and a lack of Christian values...it's stuff like this with which Republicans waste MY time and thus don't get my vote ;)

progamer27
progamer27

It's too bad that the whole "hot coffee" thing was a mod that wasn't even created by rockstar. GTA shouldn't even have the AO rating cuz anyone could mod a game and make it sexually explicit. It's not the ESRB's fault that eager programmers are a little strange... Well I think every gamer out there is in an uproar thanks to Hilary. You can kiss your sweet little election good-bye...

Shady899
Shady899

She is going to kill gaming.

jakinja
jakinja

I can't believe this is even an issue. Parents just need to do their job and keep an eye on their kids. Personally, I grew up with Atari and if games were to revert back to political correctness I would stop playing. I enjoy my PS2 and all the gore and curse words that come with the games I buy. I am old enough to buy any game I want, so to me it isn't a problem what happens with the rating system. But I think if a 13 year old kid wants to blow a zombies head off let him! And I would also love to see the list of games incorrectly rated.

insane956dv
insane956dv

I have a dream that one day polititians and humans will play halo online together, and we will all get along without trying to cut each others throat. well shall all rise together and play, holding our controls up high with no shame, free at last, free at last

Raven87
Raven87

The "Human condition" is one hell of a thing to overcome. despite all of their narrow minded views of violent gaming, NIMF seem incapable of grasping what people want from their games. Only a few days ago I sold a copy of GTA, vice city, and 50 cent to a mother of a boy aged about 9 (I refused him when he brought them to the desk, so his mother handed them to me and paid for them instead - admittedly a trick that i used to use). Every so often public figures like this come along, and are shortly there after shot down, by a wave of public indifference towards their cause. The reason BETA MAX died a death, to VHS was not because it was worse than VHS, but because Sony refused to let the porn industry use the format, unlike VHS. People want filth, and it will never change.

ArmoredAshes
ArmoredAshes

well i hate to inform hillary but the ppl that will be voting in the next election will be people my age will be voting...and if she screws us now she wont be getting those nice votes...i know that they are only enforcing the whole needing to be 17 to buy M games....but who knows where she will try to take this. And if there is such a problem let the parents step in and take responsibility.....my mother works all day and could still tell you exactly what i play on my consoles and what sites i go on......my step father whom i hate and doesnt bother with me could tell you what i do all day and about some of my games. Come one parents stop trying to use work as an excuse because i know alot of my family members that work alll day and still havce the time to keep up with what their children are doing, so your excuse is slowly fading. You will only have your children with you for a short while so you might as well sacrifice your Soap operas and football games to make sure they arent doing anything really bad.

HitmanAgent47
HitmanAgent47

The ultra liberals an conseravatives may have the loudest voice in the media, but the country is moderate on both sides (at least 86% of it is), and this crap won't fly with most consumers. They may talk the talk and try to walk the walk, but they will be defeated in the end as people in this nation are getting sick of this narrow minded , one-sided, hidden agenda crap.