At the Crossroads of Violence: Drive Meets Hotline Miami

Carolyn Petit delves into the motivations for and costs of violence in Hotline Miami and the film Drive.

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It was a few weeks ago when I'd first decided to write something about the the film Drive and the game Hotline Miami, which owes an acknowledged stylistic debt to the film. Since that time, unspeakably tragic events have brought about a national conversation about violence in media, with video games, as they often do in times like these, getting particular focus. I lament that it seems horrifying things need to occur to instigate such concerns about the media we consume, but I welcome the discussions those concerns lead to. Though I object to the notion that there is a causal relationship between violence in media and real-world violence, I also think that in general, we could all stand to think more critically about the movies we watch and the games we play. It never hurts to ask ourselves if, for instance, a given film or game glorifies violence or condemns it.

Both Drive and Hotline Miami are extremely violent. I do not think that either one glorifies violence, however; I think they both make violence horrifying, and present it as something that ultimately destroys the lives of those who engage in it.

Both the nameless protagonist of Drive (who is referred to in the end credits as Driver) and the nameless protagonist of Hotline Miami (who is frequently referred to by fans as Jacket) engage in criminal activities for reasons that aren't clear. The Driver occasionally works as a getaway driver for criminals, but why does he do it? Presumably he gets paid, but an exchange of money is never mentioned. He lives a very modest life, residing in a small Los Angeles apartment, and at one point in the film, he walks away from a million dollars in cash. One gets the sense that he does it mostly for the pleasure of doing it; for the rush of adrenaline, for the satisfaction of the clean getaway, for a chance to employ his remarkable talents behind the wheel. As he lays out the parameters of his involvement in a crime, he says, "I don't carry a gun. I drive." And as long as he's just a driver, he can walk away without any blood on his hands. Or so he might think.

The lack of a clear motivation makes you question Jacket's actions, and by extension, your own.
Jacket's reasons in Hotline Miami are even more puzzling. He receives messages on his answering machine that tell him to go to an address. The instructions are disguised as requests for him to pick up his order from a bakery, to babysit some rowdy kids, or do some other ordinary task, but his actual mission is always the same: to slaughter dozens of Russians. Why does he go along with the orders? The lack of a clear motivation makes you question Jacket's actions, and by extension, your own.

I sometimes think back to games like Rambo on the NES which forced you to actively make a choice to play the game at the beginning. In Rambo, Colonel Trautman asks you if you wish to go on a mission. If you decline, saying "I feel better in prison," Trautman's fourth-wall-shattering response is "But it's up to you. The game doesn't start until you say YES." From that point on, the game may not give you the choice to avoid violence, but you are nonetheless complicit. You made the choice to participate. As Maddy Myers writes in her article Hotline Miami and America's narrative of masculinity and violence, "The twist is that You Did It. The game asked you to do it, but you're the one who did what the game told you."

In fact, as players, we always make this choice, whether a game spells it out for us or not. We choose to pick up the controller or to put our fingers on the WASD keys and play the game. We should always think critically about just what it is we are participating in. I believe that Hotline Miami, more than most games, encourages you to do this, by providing a narrative justification for your actions that's so flimsy, you can't help but question what the hell you've gotten yourself into. The game reinforces your impulse to reflect on what you're doing by starting with a hallucinatory conversation in which a masked figure tells you, "Knowing oneself means acknowledging your actions."

Here, violence only breeds more violence. It is an ongoing, destructive problem, not a solution.
When you're playing Hotline Miami, carnage happens so fast you can't even consider it. Defeating enemies is a matter of acting quickly, and though your victims are bloody messes when you're done with them, you can't stop to reflect; you're too busy worrying about the next threat that's bearing down on you. The trancelike music pushes you onward, and because every enemy poses such a real threat--one hit and you're done--every encounter ratchets up your adrenaline. Until the last. The instant you drop your last enemy, the music stops, and as you make your way back to your car, the carnage you've left in your wake confronts you at every turn. It's extremely ugly, and the fact that it seems so senseless only makes it uglier. As you drive away from the scene of the crime, visions of palm trees and the city being lit by a massive sun fill the screen; these stereotypical images of tropical beauty contrast sickeningly with the horrifying bloodshed you've just participated in.

Eventually, the Driver, too, repeatedly engages in shocking acts of violence. Like your kills in Hotline Miami, the Driver's kills are bloody, and they come with a suddenness and a vigor that is shocking. When the Driver starts getting his hands dirty, his motivations are clear; he cares about his neighbor Irene and her son, who are in danger because Irene's husband owes bad people a lot of money. But this simple truth doesn't establish an endorsement of violence. Here, violence only breeds more violence. It is an ongoing, destructive problem, not a solution. Ultimately, the Driver may keep Irene and her son safe, but doing so has cost him everything; his shot at a racing career, his job, his friend Shannon, and any hopes he had of a life with Irene.

In both Drive and Hotline Miami, the violence originates in deeply rooted issues with American culture. At one point in the film, the mobster Nino reveals a deep-seated resentment for his Italian mafia mates, who belittle him because he's Jewish. It's this resentment that drives him to make his power play against a Philadelphia mobster, the fallout from which involves the driver and costs so many lives.

The genesis of violence in Hotline Miami is a lot more far-fetched, but it works within that game's surreal world. Throughout the game, you can collect letters that come together to spell out a password, "IWASBORNINTHEUSA." If you collect all the letters, you can confront the two figures behind the hotline about their actions. As the password suggests, it's a misguided sense of what they call patriotism that leads the hotline's creators to call in hit after hit on Russians. As one of the masterminds says, "All you gotta do to get people to do what you want them to is to make them think there'll be consequences if they don't." So in both Drive and Hotline Miami, it's a tension between ethnic or cultural groups that initially fuels the violence, and it's the threat of violence that leads people to continue committing acts of violence.

Hotline Miami and Drive are fictions that are concerned with illuminating the problem of violence as a component of American culture. It's up to us to try to find ways to do something about it.

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51 comments
CKeenan07
CKeenan07

IWASBORNINTHEUSA....MERICA!!!

Saw-Shot-Wore
Saw-Shot-Wore

The inability of certain audience members to independently critique a cultural text, such as a video game or film, never ceases to shock and amaze me. I think accusations such as these about glorification and desensitisation only serve to highlight the low levels of media literacy in the world at large (we go through the cycle regularly here in Ireland every time a comedian depicts or discusses something of an 'inappropriate' nature). It seems that there is a total incapability in the average person to question or apply context to what they are engaging with in the media. It's as if people expect art to be a source of cultural guidance rather than a reflection and discussion of the society in which it is produced. It's a fundamental misunderstanding that is more damning of the state of media literacy in our societies than the right of auteurs to express themselves freely. 

Great read and nice to see some more in depth and balanced discussion on the subject. Keep it up!!!

solidsnake22993
solidsnake22993

Woah Woah Woah, put up a fucking spoiler warning before you drop a bomb like that about the password.

MegamanX2011
MegamanX2011

Good Article Carolyn. Though i might say that society pushes people toward their edge more and mor with higher competition between humans bings for basic needs and the incapacity of the government to give the basic to these people. More and more people get upset and some to the point of considering others as their enemy and a real threat that must be killed.

FreeGeo
FreeGeo

Very insightful read!  Great parallels between the 2 stories, and yes Hotline Miami is one of the first over-the-top killgames that made me repeatedly ask myself "why am I doing this?"  Believe me, I love a good killgame as much as the next manic, but this one feels really fresh compared to what's out there, and not being an AAA title I'd say that's a big feat accomplished!  Also, to all y'all hatrz down there, no this article is not just some girls opinion on the ongoing national debate; it's a layered examination of they REAL psychology behind the issue, and yes I believe we should all be conscious and cognisant  when we play games of any variety.  Notice how she refrains from telling the reader how/what to think?  She challenges you TO think. 

RAD_RADIO
RAD_RADIO

This discussion is utterly useless, it's been covered more times than Austin Powers shagged.

mAniaCinBLACK
mAniaCinBLACK

Honestly I remember a time in 94/95 I played video games like mortal kombat II on my sega it was brilliant with all the art and effects the developers put into it. and It was a peacful experiance mind you. Now to go and watch a movie with some sort of violence and then go commit crimes is perpostrous in my opinion. pure retardism. so I ask you this. why is the E.S.R.B really censoring our media? its because their nothing but a bunch of religious commies wanting to take advantage of our rights. and eventually our lives. like always! and Every time something like this happens.

Zid96
Zid96

his motivations are clear; he cares about his neighbor Irene and her son, who are in danger because Irene's husband owes bad people a lot of money.

 

So if he doest get hes hand dirty they will suffer or die? violence make more violence. There no way to get rid of it without makeing more. which then becomes the issue.

dmdavenport
dmdavenport

Excellent article, Carolyn. I was playing Borderlands 2 when the Sandy Hook tragedy took place, and now I have lost any desire to finish it. When reality becomes too much like a video game, then video games lose my interest.

theBeorn
theBeorn

americans are very repressed, i believe that and the way culture has it with their own people is really to blame. "I love my parents, but I don't wanna see them that much". Everyone is isolated. Shopping has become a hobby. Polar opposites rule instead of reason. No wonder your people are killing each other in schools, that is just a symptom of the real illness.

ardent163
ardent163

Nice article.

 

And, if anyone is actually having trouble discerning the nature of their actions through a video game and consequently in the world outside of the video game, put the game away and confront your "demons", before proceeding forward.

Succumbus
Succumbus

I'm just ready for the Hotline Maimi DLC to come out. Drive was one of my favorite movies too. Great article

dzaric
dzaric

Carolyn your quickly becoming one of my favorite writers here. Keep em coming!

Durandal815
Durandal815

I was looking forward to solving that puzzle but hadn't quite found all the letters when I stumbled on your article. As my eyes drifted down the page I saw letters in all caps and tried to look away but was too slow and now it can't be unseen. Thanks for that....

Durandal815
Durandal815

I was looking forward to solving that puzzle but hadn't quite found all the letters when I stumbled on your article. As my eyes drifted down the page I saw letters in all caps and tried to look away but was too slow and now it can't be unseen. Thanks for that...

crunchb3rry
crunchb3rry

Drive was just a sanitized Taxi Driver. With a more likeable main character. Other than the over-the-top violence (ie: the elevator scene) that was the only flaw I saw in the movie.

dark_being
dark_being

A very good read. When playing Hotline Miami it dawned on me that what I'm doing in the game is pretty horrible, but I kept on doing it since I wanted to finish the game - to find out what's behind all this senseless violence. Needless to say the ending hit me like a punch in the gut. There's basically no point to all that violence. To all that carnage. That was the moment I realized the game was actually making a huge point - violence is pointless; it only breeds more violence.Not the most fresh notion, true, but the way Hotline Miami makes that point is so powerful, it proves once again that video games are the best medium to convey ideas and massages through. I applaud the developers for their ability to create such a simple game, yet with so much depth.And again - great article Carolyn. both Drive and Hotline Miami are among my favorite media items in recent years.

fa11en1134
fa11en1134

yeah, ive never turned on the news and watched a story about a video game going out and killing someone or an assault rifle flipping out and shooting up a store... im a behavioralist of sorts for a living...  its common knowledge that media can influence people but when it comes to violence in the real world, even a small child knows the difference between right and wrong and whats real and whats a fake game.  to blame a video game someone would have to be missing the mental aptitude to understand these simple concepts. 

Muddrox_dev
Muddrox_dev

Some days I want to punch a hole in the wall; instead I shoot a crap load of dudes in Hotline Miami.  Thanks to violent games, I'm able to exert my violent tendencies into something besides the walls of my home.  Thank you Hotline Miami!

Balo_the_Gamer
Balo_the_Gamer

As a father, I now see this a little differently. I don't believe censoring is the answer, but as a parent I need to be

more aware of the media out there. I can't shield my daughter from everything but I can be there to explain it. That is probably the best defense to take. Also, I have adjusted my media intake, no games or violent media until she is asleep. When she gets older (she's now 2), I'll hopefully be prepared to handle any questions she has. In ten years everything we like might get dissed by her generation. So, I should be paying attention to what's out there.

shanethewolf
shanethewolf

I believe EVERYTHING influences our behaviour in one way or another. People who deny the violent influence of video games are always defensive gamers who fear their hobby is under threat. Most of them are not going to go on a shooting spree any time soon and assume because they are stable and passive, that games will affect everyone else in the same way.

 

The big problem is how games, movies, the net and even explicit or suggestive music desensitizes society to violence (and sex) or glorifies it. We all know some wannabe gangstas, who act and talk like their favourite rappers and even live the violent lifestyle.

 

I don't think we can discount the influence of games on our minds, but then that also goes for everything.

scyldschefing
scyldschefing

...I'm not very happy at all that Hotline Miami's "puzzle" solution was given in the article text with absolutely no warning whatsoever.

 

I understand that plot points from both the game and movie would be necessary to write this article, but to just simply give away the solution to something that some players are probably still working on, without the SLIGHTEST warning, shows a major lack of editorial discretion on the part of the author.

4-Legged-Shark
4-Legged-Shark

I live in the U.S., and not 3 hours ago, I received a phone call from a man who had the wrong number. "Is this the gun shop?" He asked. LOL. 

 

 

bmben
bmben

I know a lot of people react poorly to comparisons between video games and movies, and I generally agree, but it is valuable to compare the birth-pangs of media forms. Video games aren't new, but neither were movies when "Birth of a Nation" was released, nor was radio when "War of the Worlds" was broadcast. Going way back, we can include Liszt mania as a corollary instance in popular/ego-driven music. With each of these events, a relatively new medium recognized its power. I am certainly not ready to claim video games had anything to do with the recent violent acts, just as I wouldn't argue that "Birth of a Nation" didn't recreate the KKK, nor is Liszt responsible for the creation of the groupie. We all knew that politicians, completely ignorant of the subject matter, were going to use our community as a scape-goat. In previous years, we reacted with outrage. Outrage is understandable, but it isn't always helpful. I am seeing a lot of internal discussion (such as we have here) about what violence means in video games, and while many below me in the thread are misreading this discussion as pandering to the anti-game groups, it is a very poor reading.

 

Just to pick an example from our past, there was Postal. In my own opinion, Postal was an awful game. The only thing that sold it was the violence. Postal still exists, but it is generally laughed at. We have moved beyond such silliness. Not because of the intervention of politicians, but because the community matured. This isn't to denigrate those who find such puerile nonsense entertaining (I laugh at the odd fart joke myself) but it is no longer representative. If a politician were so stupid to hold Postal 3 up as an example, he would be a laughing stock. You can't hold the center responsible for the margins.

 

As for the violence in games such as COD, we are in several wars. My news is more violent than that game. When I shoot someone, they get back up. Our soldiers, or innocent bystanders in Afghanistan do not.

 

In summation, I feel like the violence in video games debate is doing our hobby a lot of good right now. Fight the legislation, but the conversation should continue. It is our conversation, not theirs.

CBN16
CBN16

I have been thinking that Drive and Hotline Miami seem alike since I first heard about Hotline Miami.

tourgen
tourgen

Human are violent creatures.  It's no mystery.  There isn't a whole lot of critical thinking about it that needs to happen.  We are violent and we like violence.  We use violence to settle disputes.  It's our nature.

peteywentout
peteywentout

 @mAniaCinBLACK ssay what?they're trying to keep violent and sexualy explicit content away from kids, bus if you've played any game rated R or M online in the past 5 years, there seems to be an execessive number of 10YO playing, so once again, it's the parents fault, not videogames.

RAD_RADIO
RAD_RADIO

 @Zid96 It's foolish to lump all violence together like "violence make more violence", as if there aren't different motivations and consequences of violence. I'm sort of agreeing with you, however that's not necessarily the problem, the source of the evil that perpetrates violence for carnal reasons is the real problem (a kid killing another child for shoes for instance... or perhaps a teenager massacring his class mates because of his vengeful heart)My point is, violence in defense of innocence, to preserve the fairness of it is not problematic, it's a solution to a problem that cannot be fixed any other way.  

RAD_RADIO
RAD_RADIO

 @dmdavenport Are you saying your ability to distinguish reality and virtual reality is dwindling?

RAD_RADIO
RAD_RADIO

 @theBeorn yes... because in America we're all the same...... *shake my head* 

Elann2008
Elann2008

 @theBeorn I'm an American and I agree with what you said to a certain extent.  Sad thing is that it's true.  

fa11en1134
fa11en1134

also, its worth pointing out that firearms are readily available on the black market.  if we ban guns the only people who will have them are criminals.

liam82517
liam82517

 @fa11en1134 But you do realise that gun laws in the US have to be drastically tightened? Not because "guns kill people", but because people cant be trusted with them. Whatever can be done to make it harder for nutjobs to slaughter children, should be. 

 

Games, movies and in some circumstances music, should be given age restrictions and warning of the content. Thats it, job done. Then its up to the consumer to decide whether or not they wish to consume the media property of their choice.

 

Blaming games for the recent tragedy is just the NRAs way of shifting blame. The NRA who have their own video game by the way. The actions of one man, would be drastically different if he didnt have such easy access to a gun. Its as simple as that. He could have used a knife, sure, but no way is he killing as many people. If any!

 

The most common argument from the pro gun lobby is that "guns dont kill people, people kill people". Well by that logic, nuclear arms are fine to have on the free market. After all, nuclear weapons dont kill people, people kill people.

Chronologo
Chronologo

 @Balo_the_Gamer It's like the thing to do, I believe that parents must take an active role in teaching their kids to discern between reality and fiction. I for one case was raised playing video games and I love violent video games but I know it's only fiction, videogames are suppossed to let you experience things you can't in real life and have fun with that.

dark_being
dark_being

 @shanethewolf I agree that all media has some influence on our lives (or on how we live our lives), but I think this influence isn't strong enough to cause someone to kill himself or others. It alters our mood. ,making us feel happy, excited, sad or nostalgic (among other emotions), but I believe this influence is only skin-deep. Media can maybe (and that's a big maybe) help enforce and enhance feelings or ideas a person already has. If you are depressed, listening to sad music might make you even more depressed, but you won't fall into depression just by listening to it. It's the same with violence; a violent and unstable person can maybe find some sort of validation for his actions in violent media. Than again, he might also find it to be a great outlet for his violent nature. Basically - you can't blame media for turning someone into a killer. You can just blame the killer.

carolynmichelle
carolynmichelle moderator staff

 @scyldschefing There is no challenge to solving the puzzle in the game. Each letter locks into the correct spot when you put it there. The challenge is in collecting the pieces.

LoG-Sacrament
LoG-Sacrament

 @4-Legged-Shark A gun shop recently opened up maybe 200 feet from my house. It has a big garish assault rifle plastered on it's sign. The store it replaced? A candy shop.

Fresh_C
Fresh_C

 @tourgen I don't think it's as simple as that. Because humans are also thinking creatures. Just because something is "In our nature" doesn't mean we have to do it or that we will do it. To say that humans have always been violent, and always will be violent is to neglect the fact that Humans can and have changed throughout the course of history.

 

Example: The human body is more suited toward squating than sitting. In fact sitting down for long periods of time isn't really good for our internal organs. Yet because sitting feels more convenient for us, we almost all unanimously spend our time sitting down when we relax. Squating is our "nature" but sitting is what we do.

 

My point is that if we can find something convenient to replace the need for violence, people will be less violent. And that's not some crazy utopia dream. that's something that's been happening for thousands of years in Human society. Yes there is still violence, murder, and wars in the world, but we've come a long way from hunters and gathers who view anyone outside of their small tribes as a threat to be eliminated.

 

Civilivation is replacing violence, slowly but surely. It's not always a consistant change and sometimes we take steps backwards as well. But maybe one day in the future humanity will advance to the point where we no longer have the need to hurt each other at all.

dmdavenport
dmdavenport

 @RAD_RADIO No. I'm saying the ability of people to acquire weapons capable of killing 26 people in less than 3 minutes - and then doing so - removes any desire on my part to do the same thing in a video game.  I play video games to escape reality, not mimic it

angelknight32
angelknight32

 @liam82517  @fa11en1134 The only thing stemming from tightening the gun laws that are supposedly loose in this country is punishing the people who do obey them nothing more, knee jerk reactions to lose of life do not constitute legislature or rational thinking in any way shape or form.  The fact of the matter is that people have a right to own a gun and protect both themselves and their property.  The NRA attacking the first amendment is wrong, but they are using this as a smoke screen to not have a rational discussion of the matter.  As for the Sandy Hook incident, this "nutjob" as you so eloquently stated failed all the checks to get a legal handgun of any kind, he got his weapons from his mother who was a legal licensed carrier.  The system works the flaw is in the training provided by state governments, it is not a federal matter in any way.  Liam by your logic if people cannot be trusted with guns, then what of the secret service agents, soldiers and police officers who carry them to protect and serve on an everyday basis, or hunters who live off the land instead of engaging in consumerism.  Yes he could have used a knife, but people would have died anyway, its the way of the world, the fact of the matter is that while you talk of this being a national tragedy what of the children who did in genocides' in Africa, the child armies of Eastern Europe or the children who die in sweatshops making the products you buy from companies like Nike who have doing it for years.  The problem is that instead of having a rational discussion or discourse we move to the most extreme solution out of panic and furthermore, have no sense of a world culture in the United States which I believe poses a much bigger issue than taking guns away from law abiding citizens.

OrkHammer007
OrkHammer007

 @fa11en1134 "Not because "guns kill people", but because people cant be trusted with them."

 

No. There are 10's of millions of gun owners, from target shooters to hunters, from casual enthusiasts to competitive shooters, who have never committed a crime with a firearm. We don't need more laws to punish those individuals; what we DO need is better screening for mental illnesses (which will never be popular, because "gee, that's HARD... better to demonize guns") and actual enforcement of existing gun laws (again, never a popular option, because that would actually require effort, too).

ardent163
ardent163

 @Fresh_C  @tourgen may truth be forever revealed to you, in an understandable and acceptable nature. May your days of gaming be fulfilling and enjoyable. Thank you for the interesting post.

Duke_51
Duke_51

 @Fresh_C  @tourgen You make some good points, but I'd have to disagree with you about hunter-gatherers being violent people who attack anyone who doesn't belong to their tribe. If anything, it's the complete opposite that's true. Civilized white people came to North America and basically committed genocide, killing tens of millions of people because they didn't belong to our "tribe."

 

Granted there were some warlike hunter gathering societies, but like, the most violent societies have been agricultural and society based, like the Mayans, the Romans, and us.

 

But I see your point, we are becoming less violent with advances made in technology, education and things like that. We still don't like other tribes though, an example of which are the wars in the Middle East. But yeah you make a good point - there is a tendency in most people to be lest violent than we have been in the past.

dmdavenport
dmdavenport

 @RAD_RADIO Spare me your infantile insults. According to your logic, if people like me make it easier to prohibit violent media, then people like you make it easier for violent people to commit mass murder. Obviously this is asinine, so calm down - you'll be able to kill all the cartoon characters you want in a video game.

RAD_RADIO
RAD_RADIO

 @dmdavenport Wow... you are a simple minded baboon. In what game are you brutally murdering 20 innocent 5 year old children?I'm simply pointing out your inability to separate Borderlands 2 and the non-sense that happened to those unfortunate children, people like you only make it easier for people that wish to prohibit violent media, to do just that.I got a few simply and easy to understand words for you... it's JUST A GAME. :) 

Avs64
Avs64

 @Fresh_C  Agree with you. We as westerners do view some others as the enemy. I believe most of us are smart enough to know thats not the proper way to think however. I was merely using the middle east as a known analogy. They hate us because some were raised to (not all but some, the extremists) to hate us and kill us. And thats sad. As racism exists because parents still raise kids to hate non whites, non blacks and so on. But we grow up and see mom and dad were wrong. So strictly using it as an analogy. Glad you read it though and gave your opinion. 

 

I take this to say I love the we (the gaming community) are viewed as kids or not as well educated. When the fact is that the gaming community is probably one of the most diverse and well educated communities out there. Aside from like the rocket science or aerospace community haha. Which is mainly why I take offense to it when people try to tell us that we arent smart enough to know real violence from fake violence. 

Duke_51
Duke_51

 @Fresh_C Yeah I see what you mean. And yeah, I was just trying to say that we still have different "tribes", not that I'm trying to justify the actions of either side.

 

But yes, I agree with you.

Fresh_C
Fresh_C

 @Duke_51    

Just to clearify, when I mentioned hunter-gatherers I was talking about much further back in history than Native American societies of the 1700s. I was making a veiled reference to "caveman" days.

 

Although I feel like I should also point out that I haven't researched that topic extensively, so I don't really know how violent cavemen were toward other cavemen either. My only point was that humans as a whole are less violent amongst themselves than they used to be. Because our societies have grown quite large, there are less people in striking range who we consider enemies. so in general we have to travel quite some distance to find someone who it's considered acceptable to hate and kill.

 

likewise, I was using the term Civilization pretty loosely too. I don't mean Civilization as in Western-Civilization, but more a general trend toward societies that don't consider violence as the first and only response to conflicts.

 

 @Avs64  Concerning the Middle East:  I don't think anyone was trying to make the point that people should lay down and let other people kill them. I think Duke was just trying to show that there are still groups of people that Westerners tend to view as "The Enemy" instead of viewing them as fellow members of the great big tribe known as "Humanity". I agree though, that it definitely goes both ways. They have problems with us, sometimes for valid reasons (they are not all religious extreemists. Some of them hate America for very different reasons, usually political and economical), and we have problems with them for (sometimes) valid reasons as well.

 

I won't get into whether or not, either side is justified in escalating their disagreements towards war. (note: I am not just talking about the current American wars in the middle east, but our complete history in the region)

 

Duke_51
Duke_51

 @Avs64  @Fresh_C  @tourgen Uhh... yes, the American and Canadian governments intentionally spread small pox to the Native people, this is a pretty well known fact by now. They would take blankets from sick people who were dying of the disease and trade them to the Indians (History and Anthropology courses...). It wasn't "nothing", there were things like the Trail of Tears, the Long Walk, the list goes on and on.

 

Also they did not introduce us to weed, the strains of cannabis that grow in North America traditionally came in the variety of what was called ditch weed, which was pretty much useless if you planned on getting high from it. Europeans, however, used cannabis extensively for all manner of things.

 

And there were indeed very peaceful hunter-gathering societies, you must not have studied the Yanomami, or the Cogi, or even some northern societies in the Arctic (quite a lot of Eskimo societies are completely egalitarian). Of course there are some violent ones, this exists everywhere.

 

I appreciate your opinion, but please don't assume that I'm spreading false facts when your opinion is no truer than mine (I've only had to write dozens of papers on the subject).

Avs64
Avs64

 @Duke_51  @Fresh_C  @tourgen  Ohh and as for hotline miami. Great game but thanks for screwing it up for me in the article now, nothing like knowing big game secrets before finding out for myself. But Drive....Im sorry the only violence that came from that movie to me was wanting to bunch myself in the face for having watched it. Boring and slow. I understand the idea of it, just couldnt get into it.

Avs64
Avs64

 @Duke_51  @Fresh_C  @tourgen Blaming games is never the answer. Music, movies, and games alike will always be a scapegoat for a parent not doing their job, or the system failing in one way shape or form. The kid had a mental handicap. The emotions that he feels are completely different than us at times.

 

I was also very angry at the so called "expert" that was asked about his disorder who said "mostly 99% of the time children with his condition are very passive. NEVER aggressive or the aggressor" Noted but did she explain about the kids and adults who have mental disorders who are EXTREMELY violent. No, of course not. Is his disorder solely to blame? No. When people explained his mother everyone said she was a lovely woman who would do anything for someone and was always seen helping others and volunteering....So has anyone arose the question of MAYBE just MAYBE she didnt spend enough time with her child? Maybe tv, games, music, and movies raised him and not her? Maybe she was never there to not teach him right from wrong? Maybe she was too busy helping others and not her own child with an illness? No, the blame game arises and its ALWAYS games and movies fault. NEVER the parent, because ALL parents are amazing and raise their kids right. Like Columbine, another one we all remember, those kids had guns, ammo, and pipe bombs stockpiled in their basements....Now I ask one simple question, where the F*** where the parents to not notice that? If I ever dreamed of doing anything like that as a kid It would have been found out. Why? Because my parents gave a shit about me. They taught me right from wrong. I like games, I grew up in the era of NES so gaming and I have grown up together. I love them. I love violent, non violent and all kinds. When I was a kid I was not allowed to play violent games. Then as I got older I was, but was also smart enough to know that I cant go all GTA and it be ok. I knew real people really die. 

 

The NRA has shifted blame as always. Its always because everyone is so scared to blame a parent. Its been the poor mother this and the poor mother that. She could have been a bad mom or a great mom. Its not like we know. I cant wait for the day for a parent to come out and say "What did we not do as a parent to make our child do this?" But as always its GTA, COD, Assassins Creed blah blah blahs fault. Its not mine Im an amazing parent. Now some parents are also amazing their kids just have issues or screws loose. So Im not saying Its always bad parenting, but mix a child with a mental disorder and crappy parenting together and yeah youll have a few issues now and then.

 

As for the "civilized white people" comment and Middle east....

 

You do understand that these "tribes" in the middle east will stop at nothing until all of us are killed right? Ok, just making sure. So that's a tribe im ok not getting along with. We dont have the same views as them so we must be killed. Seems legit to me. I guess Im just going to go kill myself cause some morons who take their Koran WAY out of context say so.

 

As for the civilized white people that came here and committed genocide...You do also realize that in all of the first instances they were explorers that came across native american people? We were just as intrigued by them as they were from us. Originally there was no violence, we traded goods and helped them as they helped us and traded with us. They initiated trade with us. Hell we introduced them to alcohol as they introduced us to weed lol.

 

The only reason killing started was idiots on both sides who decided to steal kill and sadly rape. And also some of those first native american tribes did not like anyone outside their tribe and did kill anyone who did not look like them. Yes, some explorers if not a lot of them did the same. 

 

Sorry I just dont like when people talk about things like that like their facts are true when they are completely false. Yes some instances we killed them like it was nothing as sometimes they killed us like it meant nothing. But the big majority of the time there was no violence. We gave them guns also, just an fyi, why would we do that if we committed genocide of them? Wouldnt we be smart enough to think that they will probably use those on us? 75-90% of native americans died due to illness caused by contact with us. That is a genocidal scale yes. But you dont intentionally do that, like most people dont intentionally give someone a cold. And that is a fact yes. The other 10% did we kill.....I would say yes but those were due to wars with them over land that wait for it...wasnt ours lol. So its not like Im fully defending us "white" people here. Im just stating facts. Yeah we stole their land and killed a lot of them, but genocide was a no.

 

@tourgen is also right the "hunter gatherer" type were violent and killed most if not all outside their tribes, they were always viewed as threats. They always took it as this is our food and our land we will kill you now. They knocked their women out to "mate" id call that somewhat violent. Now a days we have a word for that lol.

 

Sorry for the novel. Just dont like false "facts"