#1ReasonWhy You Should Pay Attention

GameSpot editors Laura Parker and Carolyn Petit discuss the importance of stamping out sexism in the games industry.

Yesterday, the Twitter hashtag #1ReasonWhy exploded into a tremendous outpouring of stories about sexism encountered by women who work in various aspects of the games industry. Over the course of this correspondence, GameSpot editors Laura Parker and Carolyn Petit analyse the importance of the hashtag, sharing thoughts on what the huge response to it means, and where the industry goes from here.

Carolyn:

The #1ReasonWhy is a rapidly growing collection of tweets from women who work in various facets of the game industry recounting negative experiences they have had in their respective fields.

Of course, stories about sexist attitudes in the games industry are nothing new: it's an issue that has been much discussed this past year. (Take the Kickstarter project by Anita Sarkeesian a few months ago about portrayals of women in video games for instance, which generated a great deal of discussion.) But what was immediately remarkable about #1ReasonWhy to me was the tremendous outpouring of stories and feelings from so many women, this groundswell of frustration and anger from so many sources.

On one hand, it was a painful reminder to me of the reality of just how rampant sexist attitudes and behavior are in this industry, an industry that should, I feel, reflect the fact that games can be enjoyed by all sorts of people, that they can bring people together, that they're certainly not just for men.

On the other hand, it was inspiring to see so many voices speaking out, sharing their stories, standing up and calling for change. I'm kind of flabbergasted by the extent to which the hashtag has exploded. To me, that speaks to long-simmering feelings about a pretty severe imbalance that needs to be discussed and addressed. What was your initial reaction?

Laura:

The swell of support for #1ReasonWhy over the last two days is a sign that things need to change. Sexism in the games industry is something that has been discussed more and more over the last two years, and it's so encouraging to see so many women from all parts of the game industry--developers, journalists, writers--speaking up to support each other and make their voice heard in this debate.

One of the things that became clear from reading some of the tweets--the hashtag has been used over 22,000 times on Twitter to date--is how similar some of these experiences are. Up to now it has been really hard to talk about this issue with a united voice because there are so many different attitudes and views in the industry surrounding how best to tackle sexism and attitudes to women. But the hashtag helped identify where some of these problems lie, and even inspired some industry leaders to take action via the #1ReasonMentor response: a call to arms to help connect young women in the industry to more experienced mentors.

For too long we've merely talked about sexist attitudes and behaviour in the games industry. Talk is good, but we need to take action. This is a step in the right direction.

What do you think should happen next? We can't let this fizzle out. How can the industry come together to make the most of this solidarity? How can this message reach the decision-makers and those who hold the power to incite change?

Carolyn:

It's a difficult question without easy answers, but I think the hashtag gives us some reasons to be hopeful. You mentioned the #1ReasonMentor hashtag that came out of it; this should lead to some connections being formed that result in at least a few more women getting into the industry.

One of the more disheartening recurring themes in the shared stories for me was that of hiring practices that overwhelmingly favor men, maintaining the status quo of gaming as a hugely male-dominated industry. Anything that gets more women involved in designing, writing and programming games is a very good thing. I hope that many individuals in the industry, women and men, are motivated by this organic Internet uprising to find ways large and small to challenge existing attitudes, criticize sexist behavior, and incite positive change.

I also think that those of us in the media have both an ability and a responsibility to keep this discussion going, to find ways to investigate and spotlight systemic imbalances like this. Many #1ReasonWhy tweets I saw were from women expressing a reluctance to speak out and share their stories out of fear of repercussions. That fear is a huge problem in and of itself. It's clear that the hashtag offers only a relatively small glimpse into a deep-seated problem that isn't going to go away overnight. If we in the industry get complacent, it may never go away. We need to keep finding ways to make these stories heard. We need to continue fighting for the idea that gaming is not a boys' club, that it doesn't make long-term sense culturally or financially for developers to exclude women from the creation of games, or to market games in ways that insult and alienate women.

I think the general perception of who games are for is already in the process of evolving. There's momentum that's (much too slowly) taking us toward a more inclusive, more equitable industry; we need to not only keep that motivation going but speed it along when we can. If journalists are aggressive in continuing to cover the problem of sexism in the industry in its many forms, and if people participating in programs like #1ReasonMentor keep the ball rolling, I believe it'll be a better industry ten years from now than it is today. It may sound silly, but I really think it's up to all of us to do what we can.

So hopefully this is, in a sense, just the start of what will be an ongoing discussion. Any last thoughts on this for now?

Laura:

I also hope #1ReasonWhy reached developers, publishers and gamemakers who are responsible for hiring talent in the industry. If influential development studios get onboard and pledge their support for this cause (as Bungie has done as well as Halo 4 developers Bonnie Ross and Kiki Wolfkill) and take some sort of stand to say that they do, and they will, pay more attention to how females in the industry are treated from now on, then I think something really positive can come of this.

I agree the media has a responsibility to keep this discussion going. It's not just the industry's practices that have to change, it's also the attitude of consumers and players. Sites like FatUglyorSlutty really highlight the extent of this problem and send a very clear message: this shit has to stop. You're right when you say that what needs to happen now is that the industry needs to re-analyse the way it makes and markets games. Women cannot and should not be excluded either in the creation of games, or in the way games are marketed.

So everyone has a part to play. Developers have a responsibility to ensure the development industry is an equal opportunity environment where women feel comfortable and valued for their skills; publishers have a responsibility to speak to both male and female gamers on equal terms and not alienate or insult one or the other; and consumers have a responsibility to accept the changes taking place in the gaming demographic and make gaming welcome and accessible to all.

#1ReasonWhy is a step in the right direction. All we have to now is make sure that people pay attention.

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Discussion

0 comments
l777l
l777l

#1 reason why this myriad of terribly and comparably wronged persons do not unite and create their own companies? Well, until that's been figured out, just uniting to complain does seem much more comfortable and less risky.

rarizzl
rarizzl

*See last two posts to see where post begins. You know it's epic and true because it's a trilogy.  

 

1)      An example of how making things “girly” will not fix anything.

Just like most dudes, I pretty much hate Twilight. And no, not just because there’s a female lead, or a love story, or shirtless pretty boys, or a distortion of classic vampire myths or any of that junk, which could be done right and to great effect, but because the books are plain old poorly written, the plot is full of holes, and most of all, Bella is a weak and insulting female lead. I’m a big literature nerd, and most of my favorite writers are women: Mary Gaitskill, Janet Finch, Elizabeth Strout, Alice Monroe, Toni Morrison, so on, and so forth. These authors create dynamic, complex, and powerful women throughout their work while maintaining a clear commitment to craft. Slapping a wig on Mario or just throwing more women up in stuff will not make sexism go away; it’ll just become another way for big companies to plug a demographic and make money off of superficial pandering.  

 

Finally, to sum up my manifesto, I’ll say that I do support the debate and the hashtag, but please people, be reasonable. I’m surprised at the reviewers surprise at the amount of back lash this debate has taken. I mean, not all gamers are college educated, progressive hipsters. For every progressive chick or dude, there are about a mob of twenty backwards folks waiting around the corner, fearing change, lighting torches, sharpening axes. Just like anything else, there are plenty of ignorant folks in gaming, and more fairly, there are plenty of people who just want to play games and not think about the issues. This is all just one big growing pain, and ultimately, a very good sign for these to come, however they take shape.

 

All in all, do things the right way, the fair way, and take it easy sometimes. Belittling others to prove your (sometimes) valid points will not get us anywhere. We’ll get there sooner or later, and it’s not like someone died to give us videogames, right?

 

--Ron

 

rarizzl
rarizzl

1)      Sexism in the work place

Work discrimination based on gender/ethnicity/religion, etc. is just plain wrong and against the law too, but for there to be real substantial change, there will have to be blood drawn and sacrifices made on both sides. I’m sorry, but a hashtag probably won’t cut it. I’m just being realistic. This debate is being likened to the greater argument of sexism in the world at large and the civil rights movement. Not to be grim, but before making these relations, we have to realize that thousands of people died and faced a lot of horrors to end segregation and so on. I’m sorry, and I know this is coming from the black kid, but having a difficult time making it as a female videogame writer is not on the same level as facing slavery, lynchings, poverty, the crack epidemic, etc. It’s just not. Nor is it on the same level of female circumcision, But gender discrimination in the work place isn’t right either. Ultimately, I’m saying that women who are brave enough to speak out will have to face the possibility of being blackballed and so on. (Fair) lawsuits will have to be filed and major, reasonable actions will have to be taken. Yes, the hashtag is a good, necessary start, but it’s not the end all be all. Also, with indie games moving to the forefront in the last couple of years, it’s entirely plausible that women who aren’t accepted by the bigger players in the industry could go and start their own companies and create games more sensitive to female gamers ( and no, I don’t mean making games by women, for women, which in a speaking to that, all I have to say is, does there need to be a black Santa Claus? Can you just throw a wig on Mario?). If you, whoever you are, black/white/female/Hispanic/Islamic/Jewish, etc, want to see more games representing your demographic in an honest way, and this is truly important to you, then put it upon yourself to create these works because it’s unfair and naive to believe anyone will take the time to change their creations just be sensitive to you.

 

2)      A case in point of the wrong way to advocate gender equality

From what I understand (and yes, I am being too lazy to go and dig up all the details. Flame me if you must), there was a game a while back catching some major hatred for not including playable female characters, and in fact, a petition was stated to force the creators to include a female character. To be blunt, that’s just naive, senseless, and the starting squirt in an epic pissing contest. I’m comparing this action to going back and trying to “edit” Huckleberry Finn to be more sensitive to African Americans, which is silly. That book was an honest narrative of the times. Editing out the N word or adding in an elegant and commanding female lead would just be silly. Instead of doing that, we have the Bronte sisters and Richard Wright and Maya Angelou and Junot Diaz and so on and so forth. If you want games with strong female leads, then go make that game. You can’t force others to do so. 

 

rarizzl
rarizzl

 

*my comments are coming in parts, as I've exceeded the word limit. Yes, this is apparently what I do at work sometimes. 

 

 

I guess I’ll jump in the pool. It looks pretty inviting, lol. Considering the question of sexism in gaming, especially if it addresses unfair work practices, is perfectly valid and is overall a good sign for videogames, which is still a young medium (yes, I said medium, hoping that one day videogames could be respected as a serious artistic medium and not just a toy). But I will say that there is a fair, effective way of correcting inequalities, and there is an unfair, ineffective way of correcting inequalities that just turns everything into a juvenile pissing contest on both sides. So I’ll throw out a few thoughts.

1)      Sexism in multiplayer gaming

I’m a young, well-educated, all around nice African American male who enjoys a few online rounds of Tekken every now and again. I have a few online friends that I’ll set up tournaments with, but that’s about it. Without knowing my age, race, or gender, I’ve gotten plenty of silly trash-talking texts from randos, and I either ignore them, or if I’m in the mood, I turn around and say something nasty right back (without pulling the race/gender/ethnicity card, not just good ole’, plain gutter talk). I will never ever own a headset for gaming, or at least if I ever do, I’d only wear it to play with real life friends. Trash talking is just a part of any competitive field, and some people will do whatever it takes to get under your skin. Am I saying racial/gender slurs are right? Hell no. I’m just saying they exist in real life. As a gamer and a human being, one always has a measure of personal responsibility even if others are dead wrong. If online trash talking disturbs you, consider a)growing thicker skin and talking trash right back b) ignoring negative comments c)only plug up the mic with real friends d)don’t plug in the mic at all e)don’t play online.

 

2)      Sexism in portrayals of women

Two things have to be consider in how women are portrayed in videogames: a)Most tropes of female characters in gaming were created by men, and yes, the human tendency (by human I mean male and female) tendency to objectify people who are different probably tainted a whole lot of that. b) Videogames are still a seriously young and fledgling medium, so character portrayals, both male and female, are going to be pretty shallow in a lot of cases. In general, most games follow one dimensional characters that are intentionally flat so the gamer can assume the avatar’s identity more easily. With games growing in maturity and story depth, the character’s are developing emotions beyond “Oh, I got a power-up!” happy face and “Oh, I stepped on a spike!” sad face. We’ve gone from Mario, to Link, to Cloud Strife, to Solid Snake, to John Marston, to the new Lara Croft, with the more recent characters displaying depths of personality. Sexuality is just another part of the growing depth of characters in gaming. So to sum it up, yes, there will continue to be women with bouncy boobs and thongs in video gaming as long as the male demographic (and maybe some females too) is remotely interested in gaming, and beyond any deep analysis of how sex and violence can affect people who either a)have negative tendencies anyway or b)will never have a brain of their own anyway, what’s really wrong with that? (I know, smack me if you must, I’m just keeping it real). Men like skin. Women like skin, as evidenced by all the hunky, shirtless dudes in most modern games. It’s nature. A person secure in their sexual identity and looks could accept the cartoonishly attractive and scantily clad men and women. Hopefully, creating convincing, real characters will become a trend in gaming, and as that happens, we’ll hopefully see stronger female leads as well. 

 

GAME-QUEST-EX
GAME-QUEST-EX

Sexism is an unfortunate fact of life: there are people who mock, taunt, put-down, hold back, or discriminate against women, for whatever ignorant reason. Sexism also exists within the video games industry, in one form or another, I'm sure. I won't excuse, rationalize or justify that behavior: it's wrong and has to stop/change/go away.

 

But how to make that change?

 

GameSpot is a Video Game Site. We can start a conversation about sexism in the game industry, but ultimately where does that lead? Do we blame male programmers, publishers, developers, consumers as being part of the problem? That will lead nowhere, because then the guys will get "defensive" for whatever reason, and what started out as a topic having "positive intentions" ends up becoming an endless argument of hurling insults back and forth at each other.

 

Sexism online is also a problems for some female gamers, and that problem speaks largely to the negative behavior of some people online, who hide behind being anonymous to inflict verbal taunts. Some people are trying to be "funny," others use insults as a "tactic" to throw off their competition, while others are just plain mean. Again, it's the individual's immature personality and character that is the problem and not somehow the direct creation of a sexist, male-dominated game industry. That point has to be made clear.

 

There have been some good video games, which featured relevant lead female characters, that did not have "unrealistic physiques" (games like Heavy Rain, Beyond Good & Evil, Indigo Prophecy etc). Aside from winning a few awards here & there, game like these actually do sell, usually over a long period of time, but obviously not as much as & not as fast as your typical multi-player para-military shooter, which is the popular norm nowadays. That's not sexism, though: it's profit. Online multiplayer games sell and make money because a lot more different people tend to buy shooter titles, so that they can play online against their many "friends." The sold game copies just add up & make a lot of loot for the game-makers

 

When developers do decide to make and release titles with more positive, more "realistic" female lead characters, why don't concerned people buy them, support them & highlight them more online (via blogs, sites, social media, etc) as worthwhile titles to play, instead of spending more of their time trying to beat others over the head with the whole "many of you men are part of the sexism problem in the game industry" argument?

 

In the end, people tend to focus more on the negative, anyway. It's human nature. We all do it at one point or another, not to intentionally be the "bad guys," but more out of habit, or maybe over-reaction.

 

When you try to use force, shame and demands to bring up such a sensitive issue as sexism, especially with the people you want to help solve the problem, the typical response you end up with is defensiveness or eventual indifference towards a significant issue that does need addressing & fixing. It just needs to be pursued in the right way (one way is bringing up and and highlight good video games with positive female leads, as possible examples to follow in the future, because they are such titles out there).

 

Sexism against women in the workplace (like the game industry) is a whole other beast to tame. Negative Attitudes have to change, plus useful laws & policies have to be put into place and enforced (within reason, of course).

 

However, if we narrow topic down some more, to just sexism within video games themselves, try using other games with opposing (non-sexist) themes to address the issue. Such video games can be used to keep the topic relevant to the targeted audience, who are also gamers themselves (provided that they truly interested in the issue, of course).

 

Hey, it's not perfect, but it's a start.

hangman000
hangman000

Whining at it's best.These 2 gave nothing solid on how to stop sexism and they probably copy pasted all this.No i SHOULDN'T pay attention.

THE_DRUGGIE
THE_DRUGGIE

They should have those workplace harassment videos and put a Metal Gear guard alert sound in place of the "STOP, THAT IS SEXUAL HARASSMENT" bit and put in Super Mario music everywhere else.

Problem solved and I expect a king's ransom as my consultation fee.

torrne667
torrne667

Why are we having this debate on a fucking gaming site????? Carolyn or whatever your name used to be, no-one gives a shit. If you wanna have debates about this sorta stuff then go onto a specialist site or go on a march where the majority of people actually give a shit. Seriously, since you came on gamespot all i see is these stupid fucking powertrips/accept me debates. Just review games, thats all people come on here for, game reviews and previews, new technology... stuff like that. Sick and tired of people hijacking sites with their melodramas. Sort ya life out and just live it!

davedrastic
davedrastic

I don't really understand this article, or topic. 

 

I don't see any examples of sexism here. I've looked at a couple of articles from the hashtag, i've read a few of the below comments,  but they've had very specific examples which generally strike me as absurd. 

 

So what if someone is quite adamant that girls don't play, or can't understand games. Let them have their foolish and non-sensical beliefs. What does it matter. How does their ignorance effect you? Does it mean that as a woman you're banned from buying or playing games? No. So where's the problem?

 

Oh so you don't like being made fun of for being a girl gamer. Oh boo hoo. What about every other group that is made fun of for one reason or another. Personally homophobia strikes me as a lot more important than a sexist jibe. Racism. Sizeism. 

 

But perhaps that's because i've never been on the receiving end of a sexist jibe. Apart from all those times i've been called a useless male. 

 

So perhaps the point of the article and the "movement" is about discrimination? About females not having the same opportunities given to them as men do. I find that hard to believe. Again, perhaps because I'm not sexist myself. 

 

Why would a company within the gaming industry be proactively sexist. What purpose would it serve? The gaming industry is part of the same capitalist system as every other industry, isn't it. And from that, each and every company within the industry strives for profit and the continuation of their reputation. So why would any of them hinder that by denying themselves the opportunity to hire the most suitable people for their positions within the company?

 

It makes no sense. 

 

And what does the evidence suggest? When I watch Invisible Walls without fail all (on-screen) participants are male. On the other hand, if I watch the Ozspot - 3 out of 5 of the regular "hosts" are female. Does that mean that Gametrailers is a sexist organisation? No. It just means that the best journalists / presenters that they've found have been male. Is that so hard to believe? Gaming does have a history of being a more male oriented past time, has it not? Perhaps also the presenters have been chosen on how best they will appeal to their audience - and that is something that is prevalent through all media outlets. Is it so bad if Gametrailers make the business decision that a group of male presenters will be more appealing than a group of female presenters, or a mix of both? Why can't they make that decision. Perhaps they haven't at all, but if they had I don't see why its a problem. Perhaps Gamespot have made the business decision to hire more female presenters because they want to appeal more to female gamers - and if they did, is that such a bad thing? We have all female gyms don't we? We have plenty of media that is targeted towards one group or another. It's normal. 

 

But then I guess sexism within the gaming industry must exist because people are saying that it does. And I guess if we all make enough noise then we'll all realise how massive an issue this is and what silly fools businesses have been for not acting in a rational manner. Forget about dealing with sexual discrimination or sexual harassment through the legal system, let's just make a lot of noise. 

 

Look, if there clearly is sexism, can it please be shown that there is. I personally find the discussion a little patronising when there clearly is no incentive for any organisation within the industry to act in a sexist way - certainly in the discriminatory sense. 

 

Are we seriously talking about wether or not swag bags include women sized t-shirts? That might well be a relevant and valid point but even if we were to accept that it is, is it important? 

 

If i've completely missed the point, then could those people that choose to continue with the discussion be a little more specific about what exactly they are discussing. Could they refer to serious issues, not frivolous matters. Could they provide evidence. 

 

I don't see how just saying that there's an issue and pointing at incredibly trivial matters helps anyone. 

 

 

 

 

Jestersmiles
Jestersmiles

O_o what happen to the comment section? Jesus....

ZizzerZazzerZuz
ZizzerZazzerZuz

WOW. One word.. RESPECT.

Sadly the majority of people don't know what that word means and children growing up are not taught it,  otherwise we would not be having this discussion.  First, males are mistreated and disrespected not just females. Second, respect is a two way street: Sorry, but saying there is a major problem with sexism in the gaming industry is NOT respecting the majority of people in the gaming industry who are NOT sexist.  The gaming industry is private sector company's that want to make millions of dollars.  These company's want to hire the best and brightest man or women to make there company the most money possible. Sadly there will always be exceptions; However, sexism along with many other problems in the world don't go away by crying about them and pointing fingers.  That makes you just as disrespectful.

 

Respect is something that needs to be taught at home or in the education system.  As a University grad student I have learned aprox. 50% of what we learn from elementary, highschool and even university is garbage and useless in the real world.  But they never find the time to teach us how to respect each other... So sad

 

One final point, In all my Programming and Computer classes we only had at most 3 girls in a given class (This was only 3 years ago).  Do you think maybe that's the biggest reason why there is more men then women in this industry.  If you look back at all the graduates from college/university from the past 20 years it is mostly males.

jowunger
jowunger

Ths topic is ridiculous and should be deleted. Feminism is the female extremism.

 

 

chipwithdip
chipwithdip

Why can't I reply to people when I want to? Even when I hit "reply", I can't get to the comment...

santinegrete
santinegrete

"Women cannot and should not be excluded either in the creation of games, or in the way games are marketed". Excluded from creation? they shouldn't: some of them helped Left 4 Dead and Portal design, and ... well... you have to be very narrow minded in some extent to say that those games aren't really special. Now... marketed? Imagine if they told me games like Dead Space, Dead Island or Prototype get less bloody to get more girls on purchasing it? Hell-no. Those game may be a gorefest but their identity and gameplay are based on that. I'm not saying girls can't handle violent videogames, but you should just hear and read the biased crap I had to put up to when some of them really think Guitar Hero and Mario are better than Bioshock and God of War just because "they are dark and violent". Everyone has opinions, but not everyone has good criteria. I tried to contribute with some seriousness after mocking this article, so sue me :D

Act_Chill
Act_Chill

Women give a different viewpoint and could help bring innovation to even games like FPS that are meant for male gamers. I don't see many females who play FPS or RPGs. In fact females make fun of me for playing them. So what games do women play and what games do they want to design? If I interviewed a game designer for EA and they said they hate watching sports, playing sports, and playing sport games...would I hire them? Probably not.

guardian2066
guardian2066

 @davedrastic  Saved me the trouble of posting anything as all the relevent points have been covered! 

musalala
musalala

 @davedrastic you have essentially summed up everything that everyone has been saying about the nature of this article, I agree wholeheartedly , Unfortunately you will be labelled a sexist and a bigot for daring to have an opinion that is different from them. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @ZizzerZazzerZuz Do you think maybe that's the biggest reason why there is more men then women in this industry.  If you look back at all the graduates from college/university from the past 20 years it is mostly males.

 

Yes. A blind man (or woman) could see that. 

ziggyww
ziggyww

 @ZizzerZazzerZuz I agree with you completely there should be respect from both parties and I think both Carolyn and Laura has put the whole of the gaming industry into one pot when most people you will find are not sexist. 

 

I also did a business information technology course but was friends a few people doing a games development course and out of their class of sixty only two were female so I find it hard why they expect women and men to be in equal numbers within the industry. 

 

Also there is sexism everywhere in the world. However we need to stop focusing on men being sexist to women but shift our focus on people being sexist to the opposite sex as both men and women are sexist at times.

 

Men now are more and more being depicted as dumber or incapable beings that would be lost without women in our lives, just watch TV and sooner enough you will see one of these in adverts 

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1184633/Its-official-Youre-allowed-mock-men-adverts-Just-dont-try-doing-women.html

 

http://uk.askmen.com/top_10/entertainment_300/327_top_10_list.html

 

http://stupidmancommercials.blogspot.co.uk/

 

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080208131813AAgWNY2

 

Sexism is bedded in all types of media everywhere around the world but i think our time is better well spent sorting out SEXISM and not just focusing on getting rid or men being sexist to women while doing nothing about women being sexist towards men...OR am I sexist for say this?

 

I also consider people who try and tackle sexism and rid the world of it are noble people and are doing a great service to society but people who just focus on something as big as sexism but only on the men being sexist against women side are ultimately sexist themselves, In my opinion both genders suffer from sexist attitudes therefore people who focus on just one side of the coin are ignoring other people or disregarding there problems as not important even though they should all go under the same problem.

 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @chipwithdip 

I think you're referring to getting an email telling you someone replied to your comment? 

 

Yeah I know - it's bull. Why would you want to trawl through dozens of pages to find your comment to which someone replied. If you could clink the link and be taken to the point then great, but if you make it a chore then there's really not much point in discussing things on here. Kotakus comment system works much better. 

1oh1nine1
1oh1nine1

 @santinegrete Bioshock and God of War aren't necessarily better just because they are "dark and violent" either.  In fact, it makes them rather ordinary and boring.

 

And Mario is better.  Duh.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat "The numbers are still there, unfortunately - for plenty of reasons, not just gender discrimination, I would repeat again, but they are still there, and will always be a convenient excuse for some feminists to cry "injustices" about."

 

This is the entire point.  The pay gap is NOT discrimination or sexism.  And yet, the media, politicians, and society at large harp on it again and again as if it's some great systematic sexism that still persists and needs to be crushed.  AND IT WORKS.

 

The president of the united states, instead of focusing on actual problems that our country is facing, is still trying to "bridge the gender pay gap," even though there is nothing to bridge.  And this isn't just feminism rhetoric, this is something that the wide majority of women (and many men) in the US actually believe needs to be fixed.  Obama got elected (and re-elected) due to his stance on fixing "women's issues" that are no more than dust in the wind.

 

THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS SPENDING RESOURCES TO FIX A PROBLEM THAT DOES NOT EXIST.

 

That's so fucking insidious, if that doesn't prove that feminist theory has a deathgrip on western society, I don't know what will.

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat  @torrne667 Gelugon. he (or she) has a point. 

 

Why is a gaming site discussing sexism? 

 

Oh. because apparently sexism exists within the gaming industry, and by such deduction we presume that it doesn't exist any where else, because if it did the writers concerned would take their views to a more relevant platform. 

 

When they're discussing sexism in the gaming industry, what are they referring to? What is meant by sexism, what is meant by the gaming industry. 

 

If we're talking about the sexual objectification of the portrayal of women in games and associated gaming media then I would acknowledge that a gaming discussion site would be an appropriate forum - because as consumers of games and gaming media it is utterly relevant to the audience. But if we're discussing sexual discrimination within the workplace, or specific sexual harassment cases, or issues then I'm confused for the need to discuss such topics on a gaming discussion site, unless there are specific cases that are particularly newsworthy. Should sexual harassment within the car manufacturing industry only be discussed on car manufacturing discussion websites? Are those women that have suffered from sexual harassment but are outside of the gaming industry not welcome to contribute to the discussion? 

 

As consumers of games how can we have any impact on sexual discrimination or sexual harassment within the workplace? 

 

If the audience of this site was primarily those that work within the gaming industry, then yes those topics would be relevant. But am I wrong to think that the majorirty of the audience of this site are merely game consumers. 

 

I'm not suggesting that sexual harassment or sexual discrimination aren't  very important (and abhorrent) subjects that deserve a lot of scrutiny, but I am suggesting that a gaming forum is not the best place for such discussions due the prevalence of such issues across all / most / plenty of industrys. I also think that who ever is choosing to take a hold of the baton of this debate really ought to try a lot harder to be clear as to what is being discussed. Sexual objectification, sexual harassment and sexual discrimination are all different issues in themselves. Why are they being lumped together. Isn't that a sure-fire way of ensuring that a coherent discussion will never occur. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @ziggyww  @ZizzerZazzerZuz I agree with most of your points except...

 

"I also consider people who try and tackle sexism and rid the world of it are noble people and are doing a great service to society".

 

I don't view it as being noble, or perhaps more accurately, I don't see those starting a discussion about the subject and little more as being noble, especially when they fail to make a coherent argument. 

 

It reminds me of the anti Iraq war movement. For an afternoon 10,000s of thousands walked through Sydney protesting the war. And then that was it. They inconvenienced themselves for an afternoon. It didn't work so they all gave up trying any more. 

 

Was that a noble effort? No. It was something to do on a Saturday afternoon that would give them a feeling of being a part of a worthy cause. They did it for themselves. 

 

If it were a self-less act they would have pursued the issue. Continued campaigning. But no, they were only willing to put in one afternoons stroll worth of effort. 

chipwithdip
chipwithdip

 @davedrastic Figured out the issue. It only works if it's in the first 50 comments. That's stupid as hell...

santinegrete
santinegrete

 @1oh1nine1 Correct, they're not better, but they're not worst either. All is in opinion of the consumer, though. I was just trying to cite biased opinions. Mario games could be stuck in the past and be too retro for some people, but they have undeniable and undying charm and Nintendo treats that saga with respect.

M1A2Abrams1
M1A2Abrams1

every one should read the second link you posted greyfield damn femnist complaining about everything

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

Gosh this comment system really is quite horrible isn't it. A row of your responses, then a row of mine. Has it always been this bad or is this a new thing?

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

I don't have discussions with the sole purpose being to convince the other person, or people, to agree with whatever my opinion happens to be (at that point in time). I have discussions in order to examine the issues involved, to express my thoughts and feelings on the matter, to allow them to do the same, and to listen to them doing so,  and to further develop  a mutual understanding of them. 

 

I'm not sure why you have discussions. I don't think i'm interested in why you have discussions. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

"Also, you may want to be reminded that the person complaining about being mistaken as a secretary does not appear to have said in any way that males are not affected by such occurrences too."

 

OK, I think this is why I (and perhaps others) get frustrated by your comments. I have no idea what point you are trying to make. It is in no way clear. That is, if you actually have a point. 

 

Why does the definition of troll spring to mind? Again, not trying to be rude, but isn't that what a troll does - say things simply to provoke a reaction - which, in this case would be frustration. If you have a point, then it would be wrong to consider you a troll. If you don't have a point then I think you might well be, even if inadvertently so. 

 

If i've simply failed to understand your point then I apologise - and would welcome a further explanation, presuming that it is coherent. But I think I might have hit upon something here. 

 

Anyway, to get back to my response to your comment...

 

Did I say that the person complaining about being mistaken as a secretary said that males are not affected by such occurrences? If I did then a reminder would be warranted. But I didn't. Did I. No. So why the need for a reminder. There isn't one. 

 

 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

"Hey, if they want to bitch about tampons and such, I would still say it's their right, especially if there is nothing to completely debunk the issue that they are complaining about."

 

Hmm, i've read someone else in this forum declare that they felt that talking with you was rather pointless. I'm beginning to see their point of view.. I lied when I said beginning. 

 

The point is that discussing tampons would not be helpful to be mixed in with the discussion of sexism - and nor is discussing several disparate aspects of sexism as if they were a single issue, They are not. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

" You may say that those two issues don't affect the majority of the site audience, but I don't expect the site's editors to write articles that are relevant to the majority - especially not their editorials. It's not an ochlocracy here."

 

So you're suggesting that it makes sense for writers to write articles that have no relevance to their audience. That's an interesting point of view. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

such uniques are unique?

 

There's nothing wrong with them raising a subject for discussion, but it's a bit silly to do so when they're not in any way clear about what they're discussing, or why they're discussing it in relation to the gaming industry. At the end of the day the discussion does begin to sound like "men are such a bunch of bastards aren't they, yeah, bloody men with their bloody stinky balls, always out to make our life a misery, Bloody men. Stinky balls". That's how it comes across when serious issues aren't raised coherently - it just sounds like a whinge. And it shouldn't. 

 

Why is sexual harassment in the gaming industry any more damaging than sexual harassment in any other industry? 

 

It's not. 

 

Why does the gaming industry need (or deserve) to be highlighted as a hot-bed for sexual harassment or sexual discrimination? 

 

We don't know. No one's said why. No one's provided any evidence as to why. We really have no idea. We kind of get the feeling that there must be a reason otherwise there wouldn't be a twitter hoo-ha about it all, and people wouldn't divulge such important topics as having been mistaken as a secretary, but we don't actually know. That's not to say that there isn't good reason, there might well be, but no ones' decided to share that with us so far.

 

Ok, the writers work for a game discussion site so yes it makes sense to raise a subject that they care about within that site. As it makes sense for any of us to do so in those sites that we have access to - and lets remember that everyone has access to all of these sites (apart from me due to permabans - lol).Writers aren't the only ones that can raise a subject like this, any of us can, and I get the impression that perhaps some of us should have. 

 

But if the writers feels so impassioned about the cause of sexism, if they have something of value to contribute to the discussion, why don't they take it to a more relevant and global medium. Why stir up a hornets nest in their own backyard. There's always a reason. Is it simply the convenience of staying in this site? Are they that lazy to post a thread elsewhere? Perhaps they're contractually obliged to only post on the gamespot site ( a bit unlikely). Perhaps they wanted a bit of attention. Who knows. 

 

On another note Gelugon, why are you telling me what you think? I'm not that interested to be honest.. I could understand you telling me what you think, and then explaining why you think that - that would be contributing to the discussion. But just telling me what you think is a bit pointless isn't it? Again, I don't wish for this to be rude but we're not friends - I really don't care what you think. If you have something to add to the discussion then please fire away but just stating that you disagree with me does nothing to aid the discussion. 

davedrastic
davedrastic

 @Gelugon_baat 

"You should realize that you are making a lot of presumptions about the authors there."

 

Instead of telling me that i've said something wrong, could you instead show me my error? Or would you prefer that I make use of a crystal ball. 

 

""That said, should it matter to you that they seem to you like they are lumping sexual objectification, sexual harassment and sexual discrimination together in a gaming site?"

 

Yes. It matters that they're lumping 3 subjects into one because it completely and utterly muddies the waters of the discussion. How can any of us know what each other is referring to when we could all be referring to different things. Maybe there are other aspects to the sexism discussion that I, and others, aren't aware of simply because they haven't been clarified, or raised. To pretend that someone thinking that girls don't play games has as much import as sexual harassment is demeaning to the subject as a whole. One is trivial. Annoying, sure. Frustrating, sure. But trivial. The other is not. 

 

It matters also that they're discussing such subjects in a game site - I already explained my reasonings. In brief, sexual objectification is relevant to discuss in a game site as it's something that as consumers of games we have direct and ongoing experience with. Sexual harassment and sexual discrimination within the gaming industry does not effect the game site audience (unarguably in a direct sense), unless they happen to work in that industry, which the vast majority of us won't. I presume. And let's be frank, I presume correctly. 

 

"It doesn't to me, as I consider it's their right to lump them all together under the category "issues facing women" - that's what they are complaining about."

 

Can I just say nonsense. I don't wish to be rude, or to be insulting, but that does strike me as a load of clap-trap. Issues facing women. (slaps forehead). So people should chip in with their thoughts on the rising costs of tampons should they. FFS. They should have a discussion about sexism if it is an important subject, which unarguably it is, but they should do so in a way in which they tackle the subject coherently. How can anyone come up with a fair view of what is really going on if no one knows what they're looking at in the first place. 

 

Why should we believe that the gaming industry is rife with sexism when examples brought forward are about whether or not swag bags have female sized t-shirts. Are we really meant to give a shit? Don't we have our own. slightly more serious, problems to concern ourselves with. Aren't there more pressing issues and causes out there that deserve our attention a little more than the lack of gaming apparel is provided for free. 

 

If, however, there is clear evidence of systemic sexual harassment or sexual discrimination then that entirely changes the subject. I've read the article, and a couple of the others that are linked to, read quite a few comments and I don't see many such comments about those serious issues. Oh there were some comments about being mistaken as a secretary, oh well boo hoo, i'm sure that's never happened in any other industry. Yeah the gaming industry must be cancerous because someone didn't recognise how important you are. That couldn't possibly ever happen to a man, could it. 

 

Oh I'm trivializing the issue by calling some of the commentors whingers? Well why wouldn't I when that's exactly what they're doing. If they have a serious issue to report then please do. In the meantime we'll all berate how the world is falling down because Johnny looked at Tara's tits. 

 

"I would add that they should consider having hard data and facts to back their claims though. I am not seeing any"

 

Well we agree on something. I don't know exactly what "hard data" constitutes. I don't need some massive scientific net thrown over the gaming industry, but even the odd example of proven sexual harassment or sexual discrimination would really help to show why this issue being discussed is an issue, and ought to be discussed. I'm not saying that it's not an issue, i'm not saying that it ought not be discussed, but I am saying that we should know what we are discussing and we should focus on those aspects that are important. 

 

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat

 Again you always have to have last post I'm leaving. So go ahead and respond to this like all the other times. You cant resist your problem.

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat

I also said no one is right but yourself. SO then you think every one is wrong there is no agree to disagree with you. I disagree with a lot of people here but I don't hound them for days... you need help.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat THIS IS NOT THE GOD DAMN PAST.

 

You're a devil-advocating jackass.  You're either being contrary just to be contrary, or you're fucking blind.  In either case, I am done with this conversation.  I've shown plenty of support for my side, and you always have some ridiculous reason not to believe any of it.  I don't fucking do moving goalposts.

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat

 you have a problem with just disagreeing with people. you think no one is right but yourself and you always have to get last post. You are the poster child for trolling.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat I've not seen anything that produces evidence that there IS discrimination against women.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat There is no evidence of discrimination against women, concerning the gender pay gap.  Period.

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat

 oops anyone* Just to be clear in-case you cant find that out for your self.

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat

 seems you also don't like to hear what people say... your obsessed I have never seen any troll an article this long.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat This is the last article I'm posting.  It has a link to a study done by the AAUW (American Association of University Women), which says everything I've been saying, but tries to twist it into a way that somehow still supports the idea that women are being discriminated against.

 

If you can't even admit that my point MIGHT be valid after perusing this one, then there's seriously no talking to you.

 

http://washingtonexaminer.com/bogus-aauw-study-perpetuates-wage-gap-myths/article/2512127#.ULlSjYdZWFU

beast70
beast70

 @Gelugon_baat  @Greyfeld

 wow... really? all you do is whine. your so hard to take serious anymore.

and yes I'm whining about you whining about other people whining....

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat Wow... you just missed my entire fucking point.  Yeah, I'm done here.  Feel free to keep talking in circles around yourself.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat There's nothing to debate!  It's a number that doesn't actually mean anything!

 

The ONLY semblance of a debate that could be drawn from those numbers is that women are cultured into mindsets that lead to overall lower wages.  But you would have to prove that this is a mindset that is actually nurtured into women from a young age, and not a mentality developed through the chemistry of being inherently female.

 

The "gender pay gap" is only a "thing" because it insists that there is an inequality in the work force - an underlying sexism that is driving down the average wages of women across the country.  But if that's proven to be false (and it has been, time and time again), then the numbers on that page are MEANINGLESS.

 

So yes, meaningless blob.

Greyfeld
Greyfeld

 @Gelugon_baat That page does a lovely job of giving one blob of a number, and not breaking it down into manageable statistics.  Those numbers don't actually MEAN anything.